Why balance is futile

[Ocene]

The game is fine and unique. In fact it's not one game, it's multiple games, all bundled into one. A true universe.

I'm happy we have this game as it is, with this much content and customization.

[Gatester]

The only way to truly balance AO is to nerf variety and uniqueness.

People have to decide if they want what makes AO different from other games or they want a game which has no real imbalances at the expense of player freedom. There will always be players like myself, who if given a way, will find something incredibly broken and overpowered thanks to mechanics or tools to gain an unfair advantage.

That is more or less why I like AO now, because the only real flaw it has is that a FEW professions actually lack something overpowered at 220 while many lack them at lower levels.

[polartiger]

The only way to truly balance AO is to nerf variety and uniqueness.

People have to decide if they want what makes AO different from other games or they want a game which has no real imbalances at the expense of player freedom. There will always be players like myself, who if given a way, will find something incredibly broken and overpowered thanks to mechanics or tools to gain an unfair advantage.

That is more or less why I like AO now, because the only real flaw it has is that a FEW professions actually lack something overpowered at 220 while many lack them at lower levels.

This!

Every profession has its own strengths and weaknesses (ok, some have more strength and less weakness but ok..) which indeed makes AO what it is.
More balance is less variety in gamplay, with 14 professions balance is indeed futile because you never get it so far to make them all equal without losing variety.

If they want balance just delete 13 professions and 3 breeds, then you have balance

[Manicmouse]

I thought the general idea was "team balance" not making every profession 50/50 in a duel vs any other profession.

Did this change?

[Lazy]

If they want balance just delete 13 professions and 3 breeds, then you have balance

Ranged Trox Adv Online?

[Aimzor]

Am not going to agree with the OP since a game needs progression with new end goals or it would have been doomed 7 years ago. Not going into the aspect of taste regarding the content which was given with each expansion. Taste = pure drama :P

The way Exp/SK/Axp, perks and it all is managed could be doubtful and is overwhelming for a new player and should be looked at.

Therefore I'm hoping that this rebalance is in respect of all the content which is now available to bring the entire game into a less OP state and make older content usable again.

[edmaster]

All this talk of balance is futile. Nothing extremely wrong with the way the game is now. I dont see anyone leaving cause fixers have AS and FA , but i do see people leaving cause they cant get enough vp and they dont want to deal with fa and as fixers in bs.

Balance is futile because:
1. There are so many other games out now. People realize they dont have to pay money to sit and wait in a game. (Ao is notorious for wasting peoples time on the dumbest things.)
2. Most AO quest can only be done by one person or team at a time, god forbid someone kills the mob just before you arrive. Why is it that quest mobs can be killed in the first place.
3. What the hell is with the drop rate on the things many people need. If a mob supposed to drop something, especially if its not a rare item like a pattern for symbs just let it drop. Also if a mob is supposed to drop a symb let the symb drop from the mob. (only happens to the most needed symbs have low drop rate)
4. Rolling missions is a waste of time, it rarely gives you your own profession nanos but constant of every other profession.
5. Contrary to everyone else's opinion forcing people to team is not going to work, people are already forced to team now and all they do is invite there friends and org mates. (You need to be geared well and rich to get a team but you need a team to be geared well)
6. Take an example from the bs change they made where you can do 3 crappy bs for vp instead of 1. They didnt fix the problem and bs still dont run.

What will happen after the rebalance/engine come (lol)?
Many people will come back and the game will boom for a month then they will remember why they left in the first place. (The vets still own everything and get everything while everyone else waits on lft. One of the many reasons)

[Maeventura]

The only way to truly balance AO is to nerf variety and uniqueness.

People have to decide if they want what makes AO different from other games or they want a game which has no real imbalances at the expense of player freedom. There will always be players like myself, who if given a way, will find something incredibly broken and overpowered thanks to mechanics or tools to gain an unfair advantage.

That is more or less why I like AO now, because the only real flaw it has is that a FEW professions actually lack something overpowered at 220 while many lack them at lower levels.

ATTENTION, wall of text incoming!

I don't agree.

To me rebalance the game is:

1. Highlight every profs strengths and weaknesses.
2. Make several types of builds viable for each prof.
3. Make specials less common, and let the specific toolset of each prof compensate that lack accordingly.

Let's take the doctor for example:

1. Strengths of doc: huge healing power, lots of NR, lots of hp (for a non-tanking prof), 3 DoT lines. Weaknesses: not a "weapon" prof (sub-optimal wepaon use), only defense (healing and NR) prevents offensive actions when used and require full def (resp.).
2. Several builds possible: pure healer (those docs will survive anything, but will need to team other people to kill anything in a reasonable timelapse), pure DoT-machine (offensive power at it's max, heals are much less effective, doc might need some supplementary healing to survive), all-rounder (heals normally, dots do normal damage, but in the hardest raids, he lacks healing power and for dd, he lacks DoT damage).
3. Pure healer doc would use chalices/books/grails, pure dd doc would use hypodermic weaponry (to inject toxins more effectively, be it melee (highest dmg due the risks of getting close) or ranged (less dmg, as it's easier to do)), all-rounder would use a pistol (no dualwielding for docs imho!) with only fling-shot as a special (upgrade can be used to "proc" the DoTs, so no time used casting the DoTs, but DoTs lose in strength).

So, for rebalance, just based on my wall of text, we need: more different weapons, a couple of different "roles" to play instead of having a cookiecutter build which addresses all roles at once, clear delimitation of those professions.

This is imho lacking to the rebalance FC is making right now (looking at the documents), no clear delimitations.

To me:

• Keepers should be "pillars" for their teams: everyone can benefit from their presence, and their absence should be felt.
• Shades should be "stealth melee assassins": they dish out huge damage, can't tank (nowadays, shades can tank too much already) and I said stealth! Shades should never be able to be big, fat troxes!!!! Have you ever seen an elephant hiding to jump on another animal? No! Sneak attack is so not-trox!
• Traders should not have AS specials and such, like their original description said, they should lower the abilities of their enemies. Traders pull down their enemies to their level and beat them with experience!
• Agents are "stealth ranged assassins": no troxes for them anymore! and they need a 2/3s charge (read targetlock) before firing their aimed shots. Make them much less visible, and auto-attack not work with them. Hard to backtrace weaponsfire fired from as far as an agent could fire it!
• Fixers are the fastest prof around (make it so), they usually avoid fights, andi f they can't, they slow down their enemies and run away asap. They aren't supposed to have FA, they are all about guerilla fighting, FA is pure ranged tank special by my book. burst and eventually fling should be their specials (but seriously, when you got burst on a MG/SMG, why would the company making those weaps add fling to it as well?!). Their weapons are all MG/SMG (single-wield/dual-wield).
• Enforcers are all bout melee tanking/having huge loads of hp, they should never ever get specials like sneak attack. Caps in pvp should work differently as well. More hp should always be the way to survive the longest in a firefight. They are proficient with all melee weapons.
• Soldiers are the ranged tanks, they have much less hp then enforcers, but their shields make up for the difference. Their specials should be burst/full auto, their optimal weaponry, only assaults rifles/heavy weapons/grenade launchers.

Lacking time to complete my wall of text, got rl stuff to do, but I think you guys got the general idea. Diminishing variety is not the good way to rebalance, it's making every prof unique again and make the differences much more noticeable.

[Kuegen]

ATTENTION, wall of text incoming!

• Keepers should be "pillars" for their teams: everyone can benefit from their presence, and their absence should be felt.
• Shades should be "stealth melee assassins": they dish out huge damage, can't tank (nowadays, shades can tank too much already) and I said stealth! Shades should never be able to be big, fat troxes!!!! Have you ever seen an elephant hiding to jump on another animal? No! Sneak attack is so not-trox!
• Traders should not have AS specials and such, like their original description said, they should lower the abilities of their enemies. Traders pull down their enemies to their level and beat them with experience!
• Agents are "stealth ranged assassins": no troxes for them anymore! and they need a 2/3s charge (read targetlock) before firing their aimed shots. Make them much less visible, and auto-attack not work with them. Hard to backtrace weaponsfire fired from as far as an agent could fire it!
• Fixers are the fastest prof around (make it so), they usually avoid fights, andi f they can't, they slow down their enemies and run away asap. They aren't supposed to have FA, they are all about guerilla fighting, FA is pure ranged tank special by my book. burst and eventually fling should be their specials (but seriously, when you got burst on a MG/SMG, why would the company making those weaps add fling to it as well?!). Their weapons are all MG/SMG (single-wield/dual-wield).
• Enforcers are all bout melee tanking/having huge loads of hp, they should never ever get specials like sneak attack. Caps in pvp should work differently as well. More hp should always be the way to survive the longest in a firefight. They are proficient with all melee weapons.
• Soldiers are the ranged tanks, they have much less hp then enforcers, but their shields make up for the difference. Their specials should be burst/full auto, their optimal weaponry, only assaults rifles/heavy weapons/grenade launchers.

Lacking time to complete my wall of text, got rl stuff to do, but I think you guys got the general idea. Diminishing variety is not the good way to rebalance, it's making every prof unique again and make the differences much more noticeable.

Shades are like somekind of creation made of many souls. This is why we use spirits and not implants. From what I understand, the mass amount of spirits in them makes them stronger, faster, and some abnormal regeneritive powers. Theyre almost vampiric in a way. Shades arent a melee assassin, they are some crazy, soul devouring monsters.

I agree on keepers, they seem a lot like paladins to me, giving the team courage, and smiting evil. So I think you're right here. Access to a shield seems like a valid option to keepers as well.

Fixers are really the "AO" profession. I feel they are the "rogues" of AO, except with better survivability and less damage (not that fixers are bad dd). They should be fast, and I dont believe FA is outside the SMG weaponset. Imo certain tools shouldnt be restricted to one class (ie FA and soldiers) but that rather one class would be the best at a particular toolset, and others can use it. Fixers cant get enough FA without sacrifices to cap envy's FA, so it seems reasonable.

Yeah I feel like enforcers are kind of like keepers, but with honor and pride rather than righteousness. So i feel neither of these professions should be able to use sneak attack efficiently. And they shouldnt have to. Enforcers are real brutes and can shrug off hits like their nothing. As such, having the good evades they have now doesnt seem to fit them, (but atm is quite necessary). Their HP should really be thier damage mitigation, however this only works when theres a doctor in the team....Needs some looking at.

I really feel like soldiers should be able to use a variety of weapons. In RL cases, a soldier would have to switch to a sidearm in many cases. I cant think of how switching from assault rifle to pistols would actually be useful, and i cant think of ways they can make it so.

[mcnurja]

only four profs that needs fix in this game are NT's,docs,advies and fixers. NT's can kill anyone pressing three buttons, NBS+SB+triple. docs are just retarded with complete heal,init debuffs+AS all in same package. advies... you know.. , fixers have more RS than any char in this game (from what i have noticed there even isnt a RS cap when i have chased 220 fixers no matter how much RS i have gotten) also having FA+AS+ evades enough to evade anything is just retarded.


im talking about 220s here only now. like who gives a single **** about TL1-6 anyway

[Gridpain]

only four profs that needs fix in this game are NT's,docs,advies and fixers. NT's can kill anyone pressing three buttons, NBS+SB+triple. docs are just retarded with complete heal,init debuffs+AS all in same package. advies... you know.. , fixers have more RS than any char in this game (from what i have noticed there even isnt a RS cap when i have chased 220 fixers no matter how much RS i have gotten) also having FA+AS+ evades enough to evade anything is just retarded.


im talking about 220s here only now. like who gives a single **** about TL1-6 anyway

So ... Enfos are fine ?

[Obtena]

Enfos definitely need work. The whole psuedo-shade melee gank approach doesn't suit the profession at all.

[MrMojoRisin]

"that is making everything before obsolete"

Is it? Or are the things before still just as strong? they can only be used on RK just as before. So the new items/nanos/perks are just better?

I love the AO expansions, I am sloob and yes I want AI and LE so bad, but I still make do even when I'm froob. The gameplay will always be the same if you are froob only, if you team with paid players they will be stronger than you sometimes, yes. But that is because they've paid to subscribe to an MMORPG which makes it's business through mostly subscriptions so lets consider the Free2Play program which wasn't from release(2004 maybe?), it was added in so even RK gameplay was once paid for, not now though. BUT if you were paying for the game you wouldn't just have RK, you'd have all the expansions because they've all been released since F2P so what were you expected to do?

Upgrade to SL AI and LE but get nothing? All that SL to expore. Vast and awesome looking but still; you're the same strength as a froob 200 who is player for free. because balance.

Paid players deserve to be stronger, 20 sl levels is awesome. They are expansions but the world is a one, even sl. You find a turd in sl and you will still have it when you go to rk.

What AO needs is depth. Not to the leveling system of course XD. but to the world. More NPCs with cool quests with maybe cool rewards. Lots of deep story quest. Lots of lore and just anything to add depth, just an idea.

[Socrattes]

This all seems useless, nobody can agree on anything. If FC is reading this post, what clear sense of direction has this post given them? None. Unless there are polls were we vote on possible changes, FC isn't going to get a clear direction.

[MrMojoRisin]

ATTENTION, wall of text incoming!

I don't agree.

To me rebalance the game is:

1. Highlight every profs strengths and weaknesses.
2. Make several types of builds viable for each prof.
3. Make specials less common, and let the specific toolset of each prof compensate that lack accordingly.

Let's take the doctor for example:

1. Strengths of doc: huge healing power, lots of NR, lots of hp (for a non-tanking prof), 3 DoT lines. Weaknesses: not a "weapon" prof (sub-optimal wepaon use), only defense (healing and NR) prevents offensive actions when used and require full def (resp.).
2. Several builds possible: pure healer (those docs will survive anything, but will need to team other people to kill anything in a reasonable timelapse), pure DoT-machine (offensive power at it's max, heals are much less effective, doc might need some supplementary healing to survive), all-rounder (heals normally, dots do normal damage, but in the hardest raids, he lacks healing power and for dd, he lacks DoT damage).
3. Pure healer doc would use chalices/books/grails, pure dd doc would use hypodermic weaponry (to inject toxins more effectively, be it melee (highest dmg due the risks of getting close) or ranged (less dmg, as it's easier to do)), all-rounder would use a pistol (no dualwielding for docs imho!) with only fling-shot as a special (upgrade can be used to "proc" the DoTs, so no time used casting the DoTs, but DoTs lose in strength).

So, for rebalance, just based on my wall of text, we need: more different weapons, a couple of different "roles" to play instead of having a cookiecutter build which addresses all roles at once, clear delimitation of those professions.

This is imho lacking to the rebalance FC is making right now (looking at the documents), no clear delimitations.

To me:

• Keepers should be "pillars" for their teams: everyone can benefit from their presence, and their absence should be felt.
• Shades should be "stealth melee assassins": they dish out huge damage, can't tank (nowadays, shades can tank too much already) and I said stealth! Shades should never be able to be big, fat troxes!!!! Have you ever seen an elephant hiding to jump on another animal? No! Sneak attack is so not-trox!
• Traders should not have AS specials and such, like their original description said, they should lower the abilities of their enemies. Traders pull down their enemies to their level and beat them with experience!
• Agents are "stealth ranged assassins": no troxes for them anymore! and they need a 2/3s charge (read targetlock) before firing their aimed shots. Make them much less visible, and auto-attack not work with them. Hard to backtrace weaponsfire fired from as far as an agent could fire it!
• Fixers are the fastest prof around (make it so), they usually avoid fights, andi f they can't, they slow down their enemies and run away asap. They aren't supposed to have FA, they are all about guerilla fighting, FA is pure ranged tank special by my book. burst and eventually fling should be their specials (but seriously, when you got burst on a MG/SMG, why would the company making those weaps add fling to it as well?!). Their weapons are all MG/SMG (single-wield/dual-wield).
• Enforcers are all bout melee tanking/having huge loads of hp, they should never ever get specials like sneak attack. Caps in pvp should work differently as well. More hp should always be the way to survive the longest in a firefight. They are proficient with all melee weapons.
• Soldiers are the ranged tanks, they have much less hp then enforcers, but their shields make up for the difference. Their specials should be burst/full auto, their optimal weaponry, only assaults rifles/heavy weapons/grenade launchers.

Lacking time to complete my wall of text, got rl stuff to do, but I think you guys got the general idea. Diminishing variety is not the good way to rebalance, it's making every prof unique again and make the differences much more noticeable.

I like you

[Mostadio]

This all seems useless, nobody can agree on anything. If FC is reading this post, what clear sense of direction has this post given them? None. Unless there are polls were we vote on possible changes, FC isn't going to get a clear direction.

The direction is simple: make the professions I play better. Remove or conceal the things I don't like and add in things I do. If you don't agree with me, you're just a noob.

[Kuegen]

This all seems useless, nobody can agree on anything. If FC is reading this post, what clear sense of direction has this post given them? None. Unless there are polls were we vote on possible changes, FC isn't going to get a clear direction.

I find this comment quite funny, as your name is based on a philospher, one who would not view arguments as meaningless.

[Shareida]

• Traders should not have AS specials and such, like their original description said, they should lower the abilities of their enemies. Traders pull down their enemies to their level and beat them with experience!

Ah. So according to that we are a cracked shell of our former self. And should beat ppl to death with XP pistols?

[Gatester]

ATTENTION, wall of text incoming!

I don't agree.

To me rebalance the game is:

1. Highlight every profs strengths and weaknesses.
2. Make several types of builds viable for each prof.
3. Make specials less common, and let the specific toolset of each prof compensate that lack accordingly.

Let's take the doctor for example:

1. Strengths of doc: huge healing power, lots of NR, lots of hp (for a non-tanking prof), 3 DoT lines. Weaknesses: not a "weapon" prof (sub-optimal wepaon use), only defense (healing and NR) prevents offensive actions when used and require full def (resp.).
2. Several builds possible: pure healer (those docs will survive anything, but will need to team other people to kill anything in a reasonable timelapse), pure DoT-machine (offensive power at it's max, heals are much less effective, doc might need some supplementary healing to survive), all-rounder (heals normally, dots do normal damage, but in the hardest raids, he lacks healing power and for dd, he lacks DoT damage).
3. Pure healer doc would use chalices/books/grails, pure dd doc would use hypodermic weaponry (to inject toxins more effectively, be it melee (highest dmg due the risks of getting close) or ranged (less dmg, as it's easier to do)), all-rounder would use a pistol (no dualwielding for docs imho!) with only fling-shot as a special (upgrade can be used to "proc" the DoTs, so no time used casting the DoTs, but DoTs lose in strength).

So, for rebalance, just based on my wall of text, we need: more different weapons, a couple of different "roles" to play instead of having a cookiecutter build which addresses all roles at once, clear delimitation of those professions.

This is imho lacking to the rebalance FC is making right now (looking at the documents), no clear delimitations.

To me:

• Keepers should be "pillars" for their teams: everyone can benefit from their presence, and their absence should be felt.
• Shades should be "stealth melee assassins": they dish out huge damage, can't tank (nowadays, shades can tank too much already) and I said stealth! Shades should never be able to be big, fat troxes!!!! Have you ever seen an elephant hiding to jump on another animal? No! Sneak attack is so not-trox!
• Traders should not have AS specials and such, like their original description said, they should lower the abilities of their enemies. Traders pull down their enemies to their level and beat them with experience!
• Agents are "stealth ranged assassins": no troxes for them anymore! and they need a 2/3s charge (read targetlock) before firing their aimed shots. Make them much less visible, and auto-attack not work with them. Hard to backtrace weaponsfire fired from as far as an agent could fire it!
• Fixers are the fastest prof around (make it so), they usually avoid fights, andi f they can't, they slow down their enemies and run away asap. They aren't supposed to have FA, they are all about guerilla fighting, FA is pure ranged tank special by my book. burst and eventually fling should be their specials (but seriously, when you got burst on a MG/SMG, why would the company making those weaps add fling to it as well?!). Their weapons are all MG/SMG (single-wield/dual-wield).
• Enforcers are all bout melee tanking/having huge loads of hp, they should never ever get specials like sneak attack. Caps in pvp should work differently as well. More hp should always be the way to survive the longest in a firefight. They are proficient with all melee weapons.
• Soldiers are the ranged tanks, they have much less hp then enforcers, but their shields make up for the difference. Their specials should be burst/full auto, their optimal weaponry, only assaults rifles/heavy weapons/grenade launchers.

Lacking time to complete my wall of text, got rl stuff to do, but I think you guys got the general idea. Diminishing variety is not the good way to rebalance, it's making every prof unique again and make the differences much more noticeable.

You said you disagreed with me but the majority of the things you state in order to achieve balance involve removing things from professions.

Ah. So according to that we are a cracked shell of our former self. And should beat ppl to death with XP pistols?

If traders were designed properly they would not need AS to pvp. The only professions who should require AS are agents, rifle soldiers, or ranged adventurers (using the leet/sneak morph and not allowed in a defensive morph of course).

[Otansaanpas]

If traders were designed properly they would not need AS to pvp.

if traders were designed properly they'd still use aimedshot whether they need it or not.