Pocketing

[AyyRawn]

if nukes have a 7 sec cast time after inits,

....A rational NT nerf?

I'm sold.

Seriously though yeah that's true, think I've been playing too much swtor :P
Silly me for forgetting how many times I've kited bosses on my fixer. But yeah this seems like one of the better ideas, though I could foresee pvp NTs probably complaining about this. Not that I'd care too much, but it would just cause more unrest in general.

[Siorai2]

I'm noticing this as I level, normal teams are simply gone. I don't think pocketing is the 'cause' I think it's a symptom of a game where the majority of lower levels are alts and therefore levelling is a means to an end rather than an end in itself, thus looking for efficient shortcuts is natural.

If they do manage to bring new blood in the problem won't be systemic. New players wont be able to afford 1mil per level and wouldnt go looking for a kite team.

You may see a resurgance of the problem of new players being discouraged because running into an arogant (not all of them, but certainly some) kiting NT whilst killing hecks in a team is the sort of experience that makes people log off and not log back on again.

So in my mind, the problem isn't kiting per se, it's the potential impact kiting has on new players moving through a zone naturally (if they're serious about bringing in new blood). And we all know the 'old player' vs 'new player' debate in AO never hits a rational conclusion.

So I say leave it as it is right now, those of us levelling without wishing to use a kite team will likely be soloing anyway. The issue only needs to be addressed if they're going to push hard for new players when the engine ships (which I hope they do) and then it becomes a social interaction issue rather than a levelling issue to stop folk quitting at 100 because they got trained 4 times by 'pwnkite' (please tell me that isn't a real person).

[Kuegen]

....A rational NT nerf?

I'm sold.

Seriously though yeah that's true, think I've been playing too much swtor :P
Silly me for forgetting how many times I've kited bosses on my fixer. But yeah this seems like one of the better ideas, though I could foresee pvp NTs probably complaining about this. Not that I'd care too much, but it would just cause more unrest in general.

AoE nukes* which I doubt would affect PvP for NTs, but we can discuss the nerf of NT nukes elsewhere

[viperuws]

I was in a nas heck team a week back or so and my team kept complaining about not being able to find a NT. This is while my lvl 100ish bot did all the work killing at a decent rate. I was so surprised at how impatient people have gotten.

I dare say people in AO are now almost as impatient as people in WoW, and that is saying something. I remember back in the day before SL, doing team missions was pretty good xp and gave you tokens. There wasn't much talk of kiting teams. I also remember dying a lot to the flesheaters or whatever they are called when killing mutants in lush fields.

[AyyRawn]

I was in a nas heck team a week back or so and my team kept complaining about not being able to find a NT. This is while my lvl 100ish bot did all the work killing at a decent rate. I was so surprised at how impatient people have gotten.

I dare say people in AO are now almost as impatient as people in WoW, and that is saying something. I remember back in the day before SL, doing team missions was pretty good xp and gave you tokens. There wasn't much talk of kiting teams. I also remember dying a lot to the flesheaters or whatever they are called when killing mutants in lush fields.

Not extremely surprised by the impatience, I believe I've read a few times (not explicitly here but in other places) that the mmo crowd is going for a more "less effort more reward" kind of play style, which imo is pretty sad.

Also another reason why any nerfs to pocketing may just cause a disruption of the current playerbase, as I do agree (with another statement said somewhere on this forum) that people playing now don't want to have to wait hours to try and find a team and then spend more hours killing regularly.

Honestly I wouldn't mind waiting hours if I could actually Find a legitimate team, but all I ever see anymore is crowds afk'd on kite hill, and ado's just dead.

[Psikie]

Pocketing isn't really the problem, it's a symptom. However it's a dual edged sword. Pocketing is a symptom of the lvl grind. When you have done it 3-4-5 times on different toons, same zones, same mobs, same quests. You kinda get burned out and want to just skip all that fluff. So you pocket yourself to bypass it and get your new toon to where you want to play it. Do some noob rookies get swept along for the ride sometimes sure. But it is up to them to stop and take some time getting properly equiped.
Now as far as making greys run is really kinda silly, you do realize grey rk mobs don't run correct? This mechanic has been same for 10years. A mongo will make leets attack you same as hecklers fyi. Some mobs are naturally territorial and aggressive and should stay that way. I've never understood why mongo acts like a fear to some grey mobs anyway, but CH and healing still will draw grey agg.
Point is don't be a hater, I get the impression that people believe if there was no pockets that they would magially have all these team opportunities to join. A team is only 6 people, if you are betting on those 6 for team mates you might be out of luck anyway if they are friends with each other already. Keep in mind there are plenty of brink areas to find hecklers if you want them away from pocket team locations. Or solo missions/quests to do if you are a purest. But don't impose your values on others who look for the easy way to beat the grind system.
Now on the bright side if it weren't for pockets how would noobs even get a chance to interact with vets and learn a thing or 2 about the game. If someone pockets all the way up to tl7 it's because they are a solo player anyway and they play with themselves. (pun intended) They are gonna do that anyway so be happy to leech and not grind everytime you log on.
Besides it would just change the way people pocket, they would grab a pet class and OSB wrangle-moch to overcast bots and do the same thing without an NT, just slightly slower.

[AyyRawn]

Pocketing isn't really the problem, it's a symptom...Besides it would just change the way people pocket, they would grab a pet class and OSB wrangle-moch to overcast bots and do the same thing without an NT, just slightly slower.

I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who would be for a massive overhaul of the way the leveling curve works in this game. If anything, I'll admit, the inf grind is ridiculously monotonous and could really use some variation, but the fact of the matter is if there were more regular teams for people to join, the curve would just slow down to the normal rate, it wouldn't be pocket-fast, nor would it be solo-slow. Honestly if you're going to support the people who look for a way to cheat the system, I'm not supporting anything else you say, and I don't think you should really even be playing an mmo, because a large part of most of them is a grind anyway. You can give them fluff and variety, but in the end, you'll find you're still doing repetitive missions/killing to achieve a goal that the weak-willed can't get to. I'm not saying the hardcore players are the only ones that belong, but it's ridiculous to think the only way to play a game genre that revolves around grinds is to make everything easy and have some high lvl char hold your hand through massive amounts of levels. You don't want people to impose proper gameplay on the ones that think leveling should just be "pay up and afk"? Well fine, go ahead and think that way. I just hope less cancer like you comes around and drives this game somewhere it shouldn't go. I know this game's dying and all, but really, it's not helping to make this into "Organized-and-quick-Anarchy Online".

[Psikie]

I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who would be for a massive overhaul of the way the leveling curve works in this game. If anything, I'll admit, the inf grind is ridiculously monotonous and could really use some variation, but the fact of the matter is if there were more regular teams for people to join, the curve would just slow down to the normal rate, it wouldn't be pocket-fast, nor would it be solo-slow. Honestly if you're going to support the people who look for a way to cheat the system, I'm not supporting anything else you say, and I don't think you should really even be playing an mmo, because a large part of most of them is a grind anyway. You can give them fluff and variety, but in the end, you'll find you're still doing repetitive missions/killing to achieve a goal that the weak-willed can't get to. I'm not saying the hardcore players are the only ones that belong, but it's ridiculous to think the only way to play a game genre that revolves around grinds is to make everything easy and have some high lvl char hold your hand through massive amounts of levels. You don't want people to impose proper gameplay on the ones that think leveling should just be "pay up and afk"? Well fine, go ahead and think that way. I just hope less cancer like you comes around and drives this game somewhere it shouldn't go. I know this game's dying and all, but really, it's not helping to make this into "Organized-and-quick-Anarchy Online".

I have to say i almost pee'd my pants this was so funny to me, the issue is what "the right way" to play is. Thats totally opinion and subjective. By this logic anyone who plays an enfo with grenade launcher shouldnt play because it's not the "right way" to play that class. Truth be told i could care less my toons on 2 accounts are all 210+. I dont need to pocket. Ive never had to deal with pocketing or dual logging. Ive never had a problem finding teams or grinding inf missions. So this thread is really not that big a deal. What i am pointing out is that if your entire game experience is based around 1 or 2 teams who pocket and that some how takes away from your time in AO maybe you shouldnt be playing mmo's. No matter what people are going to find ways around the system. They will spend hours or days just for that. You can slow it down but you cant stop it. The hypothetical 1-2 teams who pocket aren't going to be available to team with you anyway because they will be focused on finding an easy way to avoid the lvl grind.
2 years ago this never would have been a thread on forums because plenty of people and teams around. What i see is the fact that teaming and population has diminished you seem to feel that only people who "cheat" can lvl up easily. And since it's not easy for you to heck with it being easy for anyone else. Will you also complain when item shop is selling lvl boosts up to 199? Is that a "proper" way to play by paying real cash and in 10min go from lvl 1 to 199? As opposed to spending a few days sitting at kite hill? I'm just curious how thats any different or better.
Again understand this argument doesnt affect me, maybe i just like to argue. But I've spent 10yrs playin AO and untill you have played a froob up to tl6 with no perks and no ubber sl xp what are you complaining about? 6-12 players that arent going to team with you anyway because they are looking for a way to get by the "right way". I'm saying forget about them and play AO who cares. Don't let others affect your emotions. I'm not supporting pockets, but for every roadblock you want to impose, players will find 3 ways around it. So why waste time qq when you could be playing. You cant control how others play the game so say the serenity prayer and move on.

[viperuws]

I am currently leveling my MA (at 120 now) and I have 3 choices in leveling that I see. Level the normal way solo through rk missions or sl grind on mobs of my level, pocket healing/tanking ely hecks and occasionally going to schoel for a few missions, and a kite team.

I don't enjoy soloing stuff all that much so killing mobs my level for 40k xp of 3 million xp is bleh. I don't have much cred and any cred I do have funds my symbs and general purchases so I can actually kill things so kiting teams are out not to mention boring.

So clearly I chose the pocket method which so far involves casting ubt on a heck, and healing my MA 2-5 times (thank you evades) which isn't too bad but still annoying I have to take the roll of an entire team at once to experience this game. like it used to be a few years ago.

But really there aren't enough low levels to not pocket it seems at my play time. So I chose the path that gets me to the point of the game where more people are playing which is end game.

As it stands now, It is very difficult to play the game as it was probably designed to play as far as teams are concerned. I don't think anything will change this until there is some kinda of method to level sync down and maybe some intensive for high levels to do this level sync action.

The other alternative which is already been planned for was the whole buying of levels. While I don't think it is the best solution (in fact it is the worst solution to the problem) but it does solve the problem of the spread out levels. This way a lot more people will be 200+ and will be able to all team together for inf missions.

[AyyRawn]

I have to say i almost pee'd my pants this was so funny to me, the issue is what "the right way" to play is. Thats totally opinion and subjective. By this logic anyone who plays an enfo with grenade launcher shouldnt play because it's not the "right way" to play that class...I'm not supporting pockets, but for every roadblock you want to impose, players will find 3 ways around it. So why waste time qq when you could be playing. You cant control how others play the game so say the serenity prayer and move on.

Well, that's wonderful that you apparently don't seem like you're going to have to put up with pockets and kiters any time soon, but what I'm mostly worried about is the new players that enter the game and are exposed to this "cheat the system" mentality, and if they already live with it, that they are able to find the methods that exist in this game so quickly because they've become so common. Maybe I misinterpreted your post, sorry your grammar is a little hard for me to read properly. No offense it's just an issue on my side. Anyway, yeah I'll agree that ways to cheat the system are mostly inevitable and they'll spread quickly once discovered, but my problem here is the fact that it's even still possible to utilize these methods. Honestly I'd rather have it where people just made legitimate teams and leveled regularly(no pockets, more rk missions/rk related things in general), and no I've never leveled a toon from 1-200 with just rk missions and quests, my main was a product of those and mostly hecks, given I joined back in late '08. And yes I'm aware that I really shouldn't give any sort of damn what other people do, but if it's affecting me, given the fact that any new toons I roll will pit me against these problems, I'm going to get slightly displeased with the current state of the game, and sadly yes, I Will qq, only because I have an outlet to do so in a formal manner.

So maybe I might just be wasting my breath trying to make it a point that pockets and easy leveling that people charge for are what this game has become, and it's detrimental to the entire structure of an mmo, because honestly, these problems aren't something that are going to simply go away over night. But I will say, ways to cheat the system, in my opinion, are never looked upon greatly, and always have the chance to be put down. Also, really I don't care if some nooby enfo is going grenade or mg/smg(as long as he doesn't end up tanking my pande later on), but I'm worried about the way the leveling curve is being shown to new players, and how wonky sl in general really has made it.

[Psikie]

I get it, the only people that like pockets are the players that use them. The people that don't like pockets are the ones that are not using them.

But let me give you some reality, you can't stop pockets. You can take away enfo's mongo on ely hecks but that will open up something else. Any high lvl toon can pocket just by using heal stims. I mean heck even shades get a few aggro perks that drain ams/dms or ac without doing damage. A lvl 200 shade using drain perks will hold aggro vs hecks. Or lvl 220 MP/crat using debuffs and aggro tool can hold aggro for ely hecks for a team also. Would it be more time consuming yea but it's still going to happen. Pockets won't go away untill they introduce the mentoring system. Which guess what, it's another form of pocketing!

Don't forget you will eventually be able to buy yourself up to lvl 199 with funcom points or the item shop anyway. That's when pockets will get nerfed when you have to really PAY for it from funcom hahaha. So instead of people who made friends in game and actually team, only the people who have money in real life will be able to get massive levels. Do you think that is better?

[Obtena]

Well, that's wonderful that you apparently don't seem like you're going to have to put up with pockets and kiters any time soon, but what I'm mostly worried about is the new players that enter the game and are exposed to this "cheat the system" mentality, and if they already live with it, that they are able to find the methods that exist in this game so quickly because they've become so common.

What worries me isn't the impact on new players, it's the impact on the game when veteran players still persist with the concept that this is cheating, or some psuedo form of it. Rid yourself of that perception right now. Kiting, pocketing, whatever ... is NOT cheating the system in FC's eyes, it IS the system.

It's not something the game has become ... it's something the game has always been. I'm uncertain what your history with the game is but when I started in Ely in 2004, their was kiting. As soon as there were capable 220 docs and enfos months later, their was pocketing and 'co-teaming a TL7' in Adonis and kiting spirit temples, etc... It was THE way to level, not the cheating-black sheep way of doing it like the picture you want to make it sound like it is. Older players tell me of stories where PRE-SL, NT's would kite dynas and out door mobs for teams on RK.

The fix FC is making is rather elegant. It's also clever because for those that recognize it for what it is, they will see it's at worst, recognition of these methods to level and at best, an endorsement. It's not removing kiting or pocketing at all.

[Psikie]

What worries me isn't the impact on new players, it's the impact that veteran players still persist with the concept that this is cheating, or some psuedo form of it. Rid yourself of that perception right now. Kiting, pocketing, whatever ... is NOT cheating in FC's eyes. It's simply another method to level.

Agreed again, imo pocketing is not any different than "mentoring". Probably mentoring will be on one on one. Then you can complain about not finding pockets because everyone will be mentoring with the 220 enfo's that could have been pocketing for 6 people instead of mentoring for 1 hahaha. Be carefull what you wish for.

[Shareida]

Outside tanking/healing is a splinter in my eye. make it go away. It removes the fun and makes Darwin cry in agony.

[AyyRawn]

What worries me isn't the impact on new players, it's the impact on the game when veteran players still persist with the concept that this is cheating, or some psuedo form of it. Rid yourself of that perception right now. Kiting, pocketing, whatever ... is NOT cheating the system in FC's eyes, it IS the system.

Well with my quotation marks I didn't Literally mean it was working like an exploit or anything like that, I simply meant that it's Similar to Literally cheating a system because it's a work-around for the usual make-a-team-and-kill-hecks-normally process. But no in no way is it actually cheating, it's just become an extremely commonly used work around, and yes, basically the new system.

It's not something the game has become ... it's something the game has always been. I'm uncertain what your history with the game is but when I started in Ely in 2004, their was kiting. As soon as there were capable 220 docs and enfos months later, their was pocketing and 'co-teaming a TL7' in Adonis and kiting spirit temples, etc... It was THE way to level, not the cheating-black sheep way of doing it like the picture you want to make it sound like it is. Older players tell me of stories where PRE-SL, NT's would kite dynas and out door mobs for teams on RK.

Well, seems like 4 years didn't do much at all really. When I came around in '08, of course there was still all of these methods around, although I didn't hear about spirits until a few years later, all I knew about was kiters and pocketing. And to reiterate, I'm not attempting to make it sound like a "cheating-black sheep way of doing it", I'm just saying it's something I'm generally displeased with because it takes away from the usual leveling experience that most mmos have; but I guess I was right with one of my very first assumptions about this game: Smart people play. Also, smart people find openings.

[AyyRawn]

I get it, the only people that like pockets are the players that use them. The people that don't like pockets are the ones that are not using them...Don't forget you will eventually be able to buy yourself up to lvl 199 with funcom points or the item shop anyway. That's when pockets will get nerfed when you have to really PAY for it from funcom hahaha. So instead of people who made friends in game and actually team, only the people who have money in real life will be able to get massive levels. Do you think that is better?

Honestly I'm not for making this game any easier to level in. But that's only because I'd prefer it if the experience of leveling in a game and learning your class, having fun, teaming with people, etc. is something that isn't hampered because people want to get to endgame quickly. Thinking about it now really, AO's never really been like that for me. I'm not sure how it was for people pre-SL, but the way I figure it, my leveling experience has set the precedence for my assumption that all the other people starting after me (or just vets making new characters) will probably end up going through the same thing. So I don't blame people for wanting to level faster, but I'm not for all these simple methods, despite how commonplace they've become.

Really though, I'm ultimately just stating my opinion. This game may never have any additions that make leveling any funner, and if that's not the case, then any ridiculous zealotry on my part of getting rid of pockets would be in vain.

Basically, I'd want leveling to not be made so simple, but I don't want core leveling without pockets to be such a lame task that people just default over to pockets/kiters. That's my rationale behind why pockets/kiters even still have business. And imo, 'tis a sad story.

[SoapTarder]

I think it was either Lindelu, or the new Producer that made a good point elsewhere. Can't be arsed to search for it to make an exact quote, but the just of the argument was that if its a single player RPG (i.e. - skyrim, mass effect or what have you), and you cheat, or short-cut the effort to progress through the game this would obviously short-cut the overall experience and make the game less enjoyable for the person playing.

obviously exceptions apply to any truth or rule, but I wholeheartedly agree with that line of thinking here.

And they continued by making the comparison to the MMO world, where the opposite is practiced, even at the cost of enjoying the game, in order to get that dose of epeen.

someone else can link to that post if they know where it was made. Its an interesting thought to hold onto for those (including myself) that have done the 220/70/30 marathon repeatedly, only to make the next toon and start the next marathon, because the last toon didn't bring the "feel good" sense of accomplishment we thought it would.

what should happen to OSTing? As someone who has spent too much time OSTing at kite hill in the past, I can't wait till grey mobs like ely hecks and nascense hecks run from OST. Because, while it remains an option, players both new and old gravitate towards it, and I've found myself repeatedly in the past giving up trying to find proper teams, and instead bringing in my enfo to OST, or nt to spam 1111111111111 for someone elses enfo/doc, just to level at a decent rate so I don't lose interest and play another game. I think that "proper" in this case can fall into the same net as "moderation," and "steady progression." speeding through content for the umteenth time is how you burn yourself out, and its certainly not that gratifying in the long run, It's simply addictive behavior at its core.

/verbal diarh....

[AyyRawn]

I think it was either Lindelu, or the new Producer that made a good point elsewhere. Can't be arsed to search for it to make an exact quote, but the just of the argument was that if its a single player RPG (i.e. - skyrim, mass effect or what have you), and you cheat, or short-cut the effort to progress through the game this would obviously short-cut the overall experience and make the game less enjoyable for the person playing.

obviously exceptions apply to any truth or rule, but I wholeheartedly agree with that line of thinking here.

Basically what I'm trying to say, I just don't like the fact that the experience of progressing naturally in a game is what's being taken away because of pockets, OSTs, etc.
Haven't read that post myself, but yes I'd agree with it too.

what should happen to OSTing? As someone who has spent too much time OSTing at kite hill in the past, I can't wait till grey mobs like ely hecks and nascense hecks run from OST. Because, while it remains an option, players both new and old gravitate towards it, and I've found myself repeatedly in the past giving up trying to find proper teams, and instead bringing in my enfo to OST, or nt to spam 1111111111111 for someone elses enfo/doc, just to level at a decent rate so I don't lose interest and play another game. I think that "proper" in this case can fall into the same net as "moderation," and "steady progression." speeding through content for the umteenth time is how you burn yourself out, and its certainly not that gratifying in the long run, It's simply addictive behavior at its core.

And what I was trying to get at before as well, sadly as much as I'd care about a "leveling experience" to be maintained in this game, it more or less lacks one that is actually fun or gratifying the whole time through. In the beginning it's fun, then once you get to mid-range and start the heck grind, it starts to get ridiculous, and becomes more of a chore than something that you actually want to be doing. And I will admit, part of the reason I'm frozen right now is because I just can't find teams that aren't asking for x million per level.

EDIT: woops messed up the quote

[SoapTarder]

I found the post. Just gonna quote a small part of it that's most relevant (I think) to the topic. the whole post is massive so not gonna quote the whole thing, although it is a good read.

(snip)...In my own case, even though I had played MUDs in the early 90s, it was UO which got me hooked on MMOs. For about 10 years, for the most part, I exclusively was an MMO gamer. And I find myself now playing single-player RPGs more and more. Why is that? One day I woke up and realized that everything a next-gen MMO does for me, a single player RPG can do better. I don't need phasing and these complicated systems of client-side tricks to give me the illusion of changing the world. In a single player game I can actually change the world, because the entire game is on my machine and the game literally does revolve around my character. Basically, single player RPGs are supremely superior to MMOs at being single player RPGs. And, they can do it much more cheaply.

In a single player RPG there is no race to end-game (and no pressure to do so). The game has an end and therefore I want to prolong that as long as possible by doing every side-quest and finding every collectible and so forth. I can login and play on my own time and don't have to wait for anybody else. If I find a game-breaking exploit, it's actually counter to my interest to use it because it reduces my own enjoyment.

In fact, the only thing an MMO does better than a single player RPG is user-generated-content (competitive and cooperative PvP/PvE). Providing situations that can only arise by having sandbox elements that encourage player interaction...(snip)

[AyyRawn]

I found the post. Just gonna quote a small part of it that's most relevant (I think) to the topic. the whole post is massive so not gonna quote the whole thing, although it is a good read.

Nice snipping, very good section to point out in this situation. Also I can relate to that exact situation, for a long while I completely left console gaming for PC gaming, mostly in the form of mmos. One notable difference is the amount of pressure that's put on you to progress. For mmos, it's really high, with people wanting to tear through the game and get straight to the endgame and challenging content, and of course people just want to be max level because it makes them feel more comfortable, and I'd like to believe that is in fact an epeen thing. Now with console games (campaign and multiplayer), the pressure is only really there if you want it to be. With things like levels in Call of Duty, there's always that "Gee I want to be max level and have all the weapons unlocked" feel, but you don't necessarily have to accomplish that to be really good at the game, or really powerful. It helps, but is not necessary. Now with games like Fallout 3, yeah there's a bit more pressure to level up, because it does dictate your power and survivability, but you're the only one playing, and that fact basically sums everything else up :P

A funny thing to think about though in the situation of this game, the endgame isn't something I'd exactly want to bee-line to after finally having reached it once. Not in it's current state anyway. And the most fun thing to do at endgame (imo, pvp) can be done much sooner anyway, and at lower levels it does have it's differences that make it worthwhile.