Pocketing

[Obtena]

Well with my quotation marks I didn't Literally mean it was working like an exploit or anything like that, I simply meant that it's Similar to Literally cheating a system because it's a work-around for the usual make-a-team-and-kill-hecks-normally process. But no in no way is it actually cheating, it's just become an extremely commonly used work around, and yes, basically the new system.

Again, hate to pick on you but it's not a work around for anything, nor is it some new system that some clever players just invented. Like I said .. it's been around since the beginning of the game .. it IS the system. The premise that pocketing and kiting have to be 'fixed' because it's a deviation from what is normal and acceptable is a fallacy.

[AyyRawn]

Again, hate to pick on you but it's not a work around for anything, nor is it some new system that some clever players just invented. Like I said .. it's been around since the beginning of the game .. it IS the system. The premise that pocketing and kiting have to be 'fixed' because it's a deviation from what is normal and acceptable is a fallacy.

...Well I don't know what other words I may be able to use, but, I'm still not calling it a "clever system" either, I'm just saying, it's an Alternative to what mmos in general have established as the "usual way to level". Also, I never said that pocketing and kiting have to be "fixed", I've just been saying that they mess with new players who come in, possibly from other games, assuming that the "usual way to level" is commonly in effect in this game as well, and it's not exactly affecting them positively imo. I think the reason I say this is somewhat obvious, it skews opinions and views on games.

[SoapTarder]

Obtena is correct, in that certain systems of leveling have existed in AO since the beginning. take kiting; people used to hover up in their yalms, while an nt ran around the entire playfield nuking rediculous numbers of mobs. people ask, why is there no large pockets of mobs on rk? or how come I have to be close to a team mate to get xp from their kill? or, how come a level 1 cannot get xp from a level 200 teammate killing high level mobs? well, there's you answer, partly. funcom obviously attempted to curb the trend of lazy leveling in rk. in SL, no attempt has ever been made to date, even though mobs give double the xp, and there are large clumps of mobs (i.e. hecklers), people still resort to being a lazy and use pocketing in every way possible (and yeah, I'm guilty of it too).

There's obviously a line to be drawn though. up until people started OSTing at kite hill, I don't recall OSTing ever being an issue. it was considered normal, because it's done in other mmo's as well to get good loot, or to survive a tough area. but, I suppose when the pathing patch was introduced, there were a lot of nt's who suddenly couldn't figure out how to kite anymore, or complained it was now too hard. in reality, I kited ely hecks old school on a 110 NT a year or so back, so its not impossible. I deleted that NT because I made it for the sole purpose of showing nubs that kiting is easy, but I think the point stands in that OSTing hecklers at kite hill and JC etc.. crossed the line for some people, and now its an issue.

personally, I'd love to see it fixed, as most outdoor grey mobs run from you anyway, why not hecks. when was the last time you saw a 220 enfo and a nuking nt at Tiig beach? its not doable, yet people still (or used to at least) team there for decent xp.

[AyyRawn]

Obtena is correct, in that certain systems of leveling have existed in AO since the beginning. take kiting; people used to hover up in their yalms, while an nt ran around the entire playfield nuking rediculous numbers of mobs. people ask, why is there no large pockets of mobs on rk? or how come I have to be close to a team mate to get xp from their kill? or, how come a level 1 cannot get xp from a level 200 teammate killing high level mobs? well, there's you answer, partly. funcom obviously attempted to curb the trend of lazy leveling in rk. in SL, no attempt has ever been made to date, even though mobs give double the xp, and there are large clumps of mobs (i.e. hecklers), people still resort to being a lazy and use pocketing in every way possible (and yeah, I'm guilty of it too).

I haven't been around for a while, so I don't know if borgs are still being kited, but yeah don't they count? I've seen them in fairly decent sized pockets :P
Anyway yeah, I see what you mean by there really being no attempts on SL mobs. Sometimes I wonder why they made SL such a large expansion wherein someone could lvl from 1-220 with it alone, and basically almost not needing rk at all, save for a place to start (and that only applies to all classes but two).

There's obviously a line to be drawn though. up until people started OSTing at kite hill, I don't recall OSTing ever being an issue. it was considered normal, because it's done in other mmo's as well to get good loot, or to survive a tough area. but, I suppose when the pathing patch was introduced, there were a lot of nt's who suddenly couldn't figure out how to kite anymore, or complained it was now too hard. in reality, I kited ely hecks old school on a 110 NT a year or so back, so its not impossible. I deleted that NT because I made it for the sole purpose of showing nubs that kiting is easy, but I think the point stands in that OSTing hecklers at kite hill and JC etc.. crossed the line for some people, and now its an issue.

Well, like I said before, I feel like it was just (something similar to...trying to keep my words Very clear for someone) a trend that caught on but never really died out. And (I feel like) this mostly occurred because of demand, and people getting the idea that it was something that should really be used more frequently because it's faster and simpler(not because it's an exploit or a way to actually cheat the system), albeit not as challenging and socially engaging. People seem to have stopped caring about that really, all (it seems) they want is 220 and out of any zone except pande.

[SoapTarder]

Well, like I said before, I feel like it was just (something similar to...trying to keep my words Very clear for someone) a trend that caught on but never really died out. And (I feel like) this mostly occurred because of demand, and people getting the idea that it was something that should really be used more frequently because it's faster and simpler(not because it's an exploit or a way to actually cheat the system), albeit not as challenging and socially engaging. People seem to have stopped caring about that really, all (it seems) they want is 220 and out of any zone except pande.

yeah so true. (and hopefully its not me your trying to keep your words clear for, as this is like the first time I'm actually responding to what you said specifically. I've just been spewing my opinion so far).

Whats funny, to me at least, is that OSTing at kite hill is much slower than an NT kiting by themselves; I would throw a guess out there that "real" kiting is 25-50% faster; at least. what's hysterical, are NT's that still think they should be given credits for pushing 1 on their keyboard repeatedly (or making a keyboard macro to do that). there's no prestige or respect in it anymore. like you say, people have stopped caring. I recall a few occasions where I kited at kitehill for 10 or 12 hours straight for creds (old skool kiting, not OST). there was prestige in that, and even a sense of community, and economy, and epeen. there were wars, and factions of 220's that would pvp there, and flagged toons following the kiting NT to gank them. it was Anarchy.

I totally agree, no one cares anymore. partly because its become cliche, but also because its no longer thrilling. It's just "lets get this done asap, I wanna get my molar today, and hit 210 tomorrow, and 220 by the end of the week, and be rigged by the end of the month." - or, whatever timeline someone may have.

Also, another thing to consider, is that many players that got kited at KH for a long time, were there to hit 150, and then pound s10. It may explain why prices at KH went from 1m a level, to 4-5m per level, while the effort on the NT's part, went from requiring a bit of skill and experience, to an almost effortless "shoot fish in a barrel" method, and this OST method remained the preferred method, instead of just being a fad. yeah, that definitely makes sense to me now. collateral damage ftw

[Psikie]

Thought I would point out a few things for a final say... for those who want hecklers to run away if grey, keep in mind sided mobs don't run away in SL and pocket teams could easily switch to those LOWER hp mobs that offer nearly as good and sometimes better sk/hour. It would just mean you couldn't mix sided teams and you would be cutting off a chunk of players to team with.
Also maybe even more hilarious to me is that 75%-100% RK missions will cap xp same as hecklers do. You know that people used to pocket those also by using key duper right? The only reason hecklers and borgs are used now... is that they are static in location and respawn faster than traveling to and from mission locations on rk.
You can't get rid of pockets, sided mobs or city guards will never run when aggro'd. People will just find different mobs to kill. My toons are neutral so I can always find teams hahaha. By tryin to get rid of pocket teams you are cuttin off your own nose to spite your face. Because people will just start killing sided mobs more often and if it's your opposite faction they will never team you. You will eliminate mixed teaming and then see how hard lft will be for you.

[Kuegen]

Whats funny, to me at least, is that OSTing at kite hill is much slower than an NT kiting by themselves; I would throw a guess out there that "real" kiting is 25-50% faster; at least.

Im assuming if the NT didnt have to share? A kiting NT would have to use Kel's, which does less damage than VE (if they were standing still, IE using an OST). You could also take in to account all the failed pulls an NT kiter will have. Not saying ive been with the best of the best, but nowadays its more work to kite those hecks. It takes a little more skill/luck. People die sometimes. Whenever I've teamed an NT who kites the hecks, ive found it slower than using an OST. Not that it matters, its all ridiculous xp anyway.

[Aeliniyah]

People die sometimes.

They are supposed to die. It's what makes it fun. The risk that the brown stuff might hit the fan. I still remember the thrill of running away as fast as possible after a failed pull in regular team. Or accidentally rooting my self as a kiting nt. OST takes that away, and with that, removes the fun and makes it extremely boring.

And tbh, a good regular team makes as much (if not more) xp/h than your typical gimp NT+pocket OST team. And it's a lot more fun.

[Utopian]

They are supposed to die. It's what makes it fun. The risk that the brown stuff might hit the fan. I still remember the thrill of running away as fast as possible after a failed pull in regular team. Or accidentally rooting my self as a kiting nt. OST takes that away, and with that, removes the fun and makes it extremely boring.

And tbh, a good regular team makes as much (if not more) xp/h than your typical gimp NT+pocket OST team. And it's a lot more fun.

So true..I have been the stuff between a heck's toes more than once.

[AyyRawn]

They are supposed to die. It's what makes it fun. The risk that the brown stuff might hit the fan. I still remember the thrill of running away as fast as possible after a failed pull in regular team. Or accidentally rooting my self as a kiting nt. OST takes that away, and with that, removes the fun and makes it extremely boring.

And tbh, a good regular team makes as much (if not more) xp/h than your typical gimp NT+pocket OST team. And it's a lot more fun.

Bump :P

[drainbamage]

...Well I don't know what other words I may be able to use, but, I'm still not calling it a "clever system" either, I'm just saying, it's an Alternative to what mmos in general have established as the "usual way to level".

Grinding in a team hasn't been the "usual way to level" in MMOs for years now, outside of those awful F2P ones that are built for efficiency purposes.

[ElandorOo]

Im assuming if the NT didnt have to share? A kiting NT would have to use Kel's, which does less damage than VE (if they were standing still, IE using an OST). You could also take in to account all the failed pulls an NT kiter will have. Not saying ive been with the best of the best, but nowadays its more work to kite those hecks. It takes a little more skill/luck. People die sometimes. Whenever I've teamed an NT who kites the hecks, ive found it slower than using an OST. Not that it matters, its all ridiculous xp anyway.

rotflmao my 100 nt kites at kite hill just to shame the 150's with OST's and generates more xp with VE doing it too. I haven't a clue what kinda teams you been part of, but free kiting Absolutely generates more xp faster. And my poor little 100 nt doesn't die often enough to even think of it being an issue.....in fact, that last few times I've seen deaths at kite hill, it was some ass who couldn't get a team or wanted the spot training the hill, not the nt dying. If the nt is failing to pull and dying, he/she really just needs to learn to kite.

[Kuegen]

They are supposed to die. It's what makes it fun. The risk that the brown stuff might hit the fan. I still remember the thrill of running away as fast as possible after a failed pull in regular team. Or accidentally rooting my self as a kiting nt. OST takes that away, and with that, removes the fun and makes it extremely boring.

And tbh, a good regular team makes as much (if not more) xp/h than your typical gimp NT+pocket OST team. And it's a lot more fun.

Oh I agree, I didnt mean to imply that NTs shouldnt die. Just that death lowers the XP/minute
I agree its fun... but after a while it will become just like anything else. Its not one and done, you're going to have to do that kiting 100s of times. It will be boring eventually, and dying becomes a frustration (or a rare wtf? moment) rather than a thrill. And as the AFKer, it doesnt matter to me if the NT is kiting or using an OST

20*400 = 8000 damage a hit, 8000 damage a hit from a gimp nuke. This is amplified from a crats xp perk. A team of level 150+ doing ado hecks might be faster than an NT kiting, but theres no way that a team equally geared to the NT will will 20 hecks as fast as an NT does.

rotflmao my 100 nt kites at kite hill just to shame the 150's with OST's and generates more xp with VE doing it too. I haven't a clue what kinda teams you been part of, but free kiting Absolutely generates more xp faster. And my poor little 100 nt doesn't die often enough to even think of it being an issue.....in fact, that last few times I've seen deaths at kite hill, it was some ass who couldn't get a team or wanted the spot training the hill, not the nt dying. If the nt is failing to pull and dying, he/she really just needs to learn to kite.

You are actually the rare NT that actually still kites, kudos to you. Other people probably can, they tend to just not invite me to their teams :P Its not that they die all the time, but I had an NT once that died every 4 pulls or so (1/40 minutes), you miss a whole pull dying that often.

Also note, as aeliniyah pointed out, kiting is more fun than OSTing. Needless to say, time flies when you're having fun. Provide actual nuimbers showing that you kiting is faster than you using an OST, and them back it up with a reason. You have provided neither, I have provided reason.

[Obtena]

Kiting is definitely not faster than OSTing because in Kiting, you interrupt nuking with running and in OSTing you don't. I don't even get how anyone could possibly believe that.

[ElandorOo]

Kiting is definitely not faster than OSTing because in Kiting, you interrupt nuking with running and in OSTing you don't. I don't even get how anyone could possibly believe that.

1. You obviously don't kite would be my first guess. jump, nuke, jump, nuke, etc....where's this running your talking about. In the gathering? Like the same gathering your doing with an OST's? And if your doing it right, your jumping corresponds with recharge, so no loss there. the same recharge you have standing.

2. No OST's is going to stand there holding as many necks as can be kited with no one getting hit. I'll grant you that this is only true if the area is open enough to kill the whole field, or have larger pulls than just east or west, etc. and pulling with an OST is also not going to keep damage on the hecks, they will bug and go home if pulled too far. I've some good friends who OST at kite hill when I or other in the org are not around to kite, and even they will admit the pulls are not as large.

Lastly, kuergen I do not have the inclination to validate pulling out OST's and kiting numerically, I use reason as well. My org has roughly 18 nt's in it, both free kiters and OST nukers, active players will recognize Final Haven as having active nt's going most of the time. I gave the opinion I felt was right and correct, your free to give yours as well, but I won't fight you on it, people can take my opinion or not as they see fit. The great majority of people playing on rk2 have been kited by saphiere, rubii, diammond, shennanigans, etc.....and will recognize I speak from a position of many years of doing it both ways, which is enough for me

[Kuegen]

...

Its actually not a matter of opinion, its fact. When arguing which is "faster" its simply a game of numbers and a matter of identifying all of the variables. You did not provide reason in your first post, simply that you "felt" it was faster. Feeling != numbers. (well maybe, wouldnt that be cool?) Also I'm not inclined to believe you just because you say you're a pro-kiter, or because that other pro-kiters (that ive never even teamed or heard of tbh) agree with your standing.

That said, you did make some good points in THIS post. I was under the impression that an NT could not cast VE every 1.54 seconds (due to lag and so forth). So I was therfore under the impression that kiting NT's used Kel's rather than VE. Simple math will show you that kels is less damage per minute than VE. The reason NTs would use it is because there no waiting time between casts as there would be with VE. You say its possible to cast VE without missing a beat, meaning the damage is no different than standing still while an OST holds agg. I also figured from my experience of OSTing that NTs had the same trouble holding agg. I dont understand all of what you say in your second point, but as an OST I regularly cast mongo. Mobs will stray when you dont do any damage to them for a while. Mongo does 1 damage (which is enough), and damage shield also provides damage on the rare hit. Sometimes if the OST is too close to the NT, the hecks will aggro the NT, which can cause funky things to happen. But the second point doesnt actually matter. If an NT can cast VE without missing a beat while kiting, then they are at least as fast as an NT with an OST. Throw in the fact that NT pulls deal damage and that the NT doesnt have to wait for the enf to get situated, a kiting NT can be marginally fast than and OST duo.

[Psikie]

Kiting is faster for a SOLO NT because he is not sharing xp with 5 team mates. If your NT is teamed OST is faster because you can chain cast aoe's and don't have to worry about anything else.

[Obtena]

1. You obviously don't kite would be my first guess.

You obviously assumed I'm a backwater hick that doesn't know about AO ... bad guess. You can argue the mechanics about kiting all you want. It's not relevant.

Kiting is not faster than OST, ever.

[ElandorOo]

Rotflmao.....I said don't kite. Not backwater hick. And frankly, the mechanics of it are exactly what is relevant. Otherwise there would be no difference. How you can possibly say that the mechanics of it don't matter, yet say ost'ing gives better rewards (a different mechanic) is well, ..... Ok, maybe backwater hick Would be appropriate.......or your trolling.....nothing better to do today?

[Psikie]

Kiting is not faster than OST, ever.

I have to disagree with you here Obtena, I almost exclusively kited and solo leveled my NT from lvl 12-180. I did a few pocket teams around 130-150 and I can tell you 100% I leveled faster solo. I did the math and knew exactly how many hecks to pull to lvl. Depending on what xp buffs/imps and how many horrors were in the pull it took exactly 12-16 hecks per lvl solo. It took 3-5x that amount with pocket to ding. The difference manily being xp being split by 6 team members and not capping xp per kill. Also if anyone in team is higher lvl than NT you get even less xp per kill. I had this down to a science and even calc'd xp per hour. I also found out that spirit rooms were by far the most effective ways to kite xp per hour over hecks.