Economic effects of the "updating" of sector 10 loot table.

[Traderjill]

Ingot nerf was a lot more needed because:

1. Only NTs were able to exploit ingot farming (for other classes killing hecklers was not a very good and fast way of making credits).

This isn't true. a TL7 toon could kill heck spots just as fast (meaning stay with or beat spawn time) as a kiting NT. I know because I did it on a TL7 (non-220.. think she was about 205-210) MP and saw MANY title 7 toons farming elysium hecklers as well.

I think it was a ridiculous way to make credits.. what I don't get is why Funcom put the same thing in S10 after the explosion that occured when ingots were removed. I think the ingot situation and the bounties in S10 can be compared like apples to apples.

[Lheann]

Ingots and Bounties are Apples to Apples when you compare only TL5. During the ingot days, a level 70 enforcer with a styg on and carb armor could make 10-20m an hour bashing Nasc hecks solo. A level 10 newbie could leave the SL backyard with 1 to 2m in credits just from leveling from level 7 to 10 or 11 on the hecks in the back yard. Something that FC missed. SL back yard should have been locked to level 10. At 11 you get booted. And left ingots there. Really, that was a nice way to start off game. But that is another mistake for another thread.

Ingots impacted all TL's and were bad across the board. S10 was just stupid for TL5 specifically 150 twinks.

Something to consider. Before the first S10 rework, bounties were rare and mobs were just really hard to kill. After the first rework, mobs were much easier and bounties dropped like candy. The first night after the first "improvement" my solo enf made 150m an hour on average. The big floating aliens dropped two bounties every kill for about two days before they tweaked it again. That was just being stupid on FC's part and I bet 50b to 100b was taken out of S10 that two days. That is probably low because a group from my org took 5 to 6b in two days ourselves. Fact is that in two days after they "improved" S10 I took more money out with a gimp enforcer than I had with all my other toons from the harder more realistic S10. Since that first tweak to get rid of the constant double drops FC did little adjust bounty drop rates till they nerfed them. Result equaled huge credit build up.

A problem we are not discussing which we should is that FC seems to after 10+ years still not understand there is this thing called middle ground. They either over do it or totally nerf it.

And I still don't get the ICE nerf. WTF FC. It was sold player to player and did not create credits. Why? Really I want to know.

If I was game director I would hire a economist and have the economy evaluated. Then I would put a real drain on it as recommended. Maybe go as far as the only new credit mechanism being RK mobs and RK missions and Quest rewards in all content. Basically all SL drops would be worth 1 credit. All AI and LE and Xan drops would be worth 1 credit. That would all but stop the 100m hour new credit issues.

[Shadowblayde]

This isn't true. a TL7 toon could kill heck spots just as fast (meaning stay with or beat spawn time) as a kiting NT. I know because I did it on a TL7 (non-220.. think she was about 205-210) MP and saw MANY title 7 toons farming elysium hecklers as well.

I think it was a ridiculous way to make credits.. what I don't get is why Funcom put the same thing in S10 after the explosion that occured when ingots were removed. I think the ingot situation and the bounties in S10 can be compared like apples to apples.

I agree they are close situations and in most cases the similarities do apply, however, the notable dfference between the 2 is that in S10, you didn't have 220s owning the place.

You could as you say farm ingots at 210 most likely with average to decent gear. In S10, it was owned and dominated by multi-billion credit twinks.

[Traderjill]

A problem we are not discussing which we should is that FC seems to after 10+ years still not understand there is this thing called middle ground. They either over do it or totally nerf it.

Actually this is exactly what "I" was discussing.

Players keep blaiming other players as if somehow we are the ones making this crazy decisions. Most players on the forums didn't ask for bounty removal but asked for them to make sense with the level range of that zone.. that is the middle ground.

Suggestions regarding missions/quests that gave credit rewards, a lockout on how many you could turn in per day, etc are all "middle ground" suggestions whereas Funcom chose to just remove all bounties and ICE altogether.

I personally feel that they should have known better after what happened with ingots. While some of you may not feel that it is apples to apples (not directed at you specifically Lheann) I think that it is close enough where they should have understood their playerbase, how they would react to the introduction of bounties and how they would react to raising the drop rate then completely removing them.

[Traderjill]

I agree they are close situations and in most cases the similarities do apply, however, the notable dfference between the 2 is that in S10, you didn't have 220s owning the place.

You could as you say farm ingots at 210 most likely with average to decent gear. In S10, it was owned and dominated by multi-billion credit twinks.

I dunno.. I agree but disagree.

I would actually challenge this assumption you're making with my own: I believe a good portion of the multi-billion credit twinks were owned by people with TL7 mains. So while they weren't in there on their 220's killing mobs (because they couldn't), many used the resources and higher level mains to build toons that could plow through S10 with no problem. Same thing really.

[Shadowblayde]

Even before the removal of bounties and ICE from S10 players could still make some money in S10 without a twink, but even then, you needed to be at least very well geared even if non-twinked also, you didn't really make nearly as much as those who were twinked.

For people relatively new to the game, S10 was not the goose with the golden eggs that everyone says. Why? You simply didn't have the kill to kill to kill speed.

If you started AO a few years ago. You got your 1st toon to 150.

Off to S10 you went in your leveling gear afforded by a new player. You steped into an area "Owned" by someone, and so you were promptly shown the exit by a large mob of aliens. Back in you went. this time you were cautious to find an un-camped area. That took some time but you finally did it and you manage to scrounge a bounty or 2. It takes everything you got to keep yourself healed up for those very long fights..And pray a ChaII doesn't spawn. That's a reclaim visit. Along comes the guy who owned this place yesterday and he doesn't recognize your right to be there. Yet another reclaim visit.


Ultimately you are faced with a decision to make.
Spend the time and money in building up your character to stay there and use the funds from S10 to twink out your toon. or Move on and continue leveling.

I suspect people who went in there with average toons to build up a little nest egg to hold them to 220, probably didn't make out as well as they would have hoped. Considering anything you spend on your toon at 150 is not being spent on your toon at 220....Except for what you can resell. Only now, if you did that, you are screwed.

And yes, it was possible to do, but not without a sacrifice. You either kept your toon at 150 for a long time. Or you leveled an alt to 150. Either way it's a substantial investment in time and credits. One that I question the validity of. Assuming you moved to 220 and skipped over S10 at 150. Between the options of holding over at 150 or going straight on to 220 and farming there, at the end of 6 months Who is in better shape?

And then there is the twink issue. After you have spent several billion on a twink to go in there, how much have you brought out after that investment is returned. I dare say some made money, some lost money and some broke even. But it would be interesting to see the number of credits that were re circulated back into AO's economy that didn't involve going back into S10 (IE did not get spent on a 150 S10 twink) I'd bet that number is lower than what most imagine.

[Lheann]

Actually this is exactly what "I" was discussing.

And I agree that you do discuss and call FC on stupid crap. That is refreshing btw. But this thread has bounced around the idea it was the whiners on the forums that brought the nerf about. It was not that at all, in fact I doubt the forum whiners really had that big of part in it. FC knew exactly how many bounties got turned in daily and had as means says a record number of complaints about training and harassment from S10.

In the end S10 had issues and FC took out the old Gaute Nerf Bat (made of iron) which is really a destroy the content bat and whacked S10 very hard.

Something that is also being missed. S10 was popular before bounties and the 150 twinks existed for BS because of one reason. Prior to LE there was no other content outside City Raids where you could kill aliens before 180 and the APF's. Grinding out AI20 before moving on made you stronger and we all want strong toons. Given City Raids were timed and alien count limited S10 was well just awesome. The bounty issue turned S10 in a credit farm. New content such as S7, AI Dailies and easier LE missions has removed the AI leveling need of S10. Coupled that really just made S10 a mess.

In the end the Nerf does stop credit inflation. It killed a sector, a BS range, market built up around it and made folks mad. Last time I checked I get that every day in the real world. Just watch CNN. And just like the real world AO will adapt and those that want to make it work will stay and those quit because of it probably should reconsider why they played anyway. One change in a game should end your playing it. And that is coming from a player that logged into 12.6 to find the world total screwed up and still stayed to play. And while we lost players it was not a 50% lost in players like 12.6 was.

[Prosthetics]

I left right after the s-10 nerf. I didn't whine or complain. Nor is the OP. He is stating fact. His fact. Having veterans comment that your way of making money is gone and get over it is all too funny to me. I made all my credz by way of s-10. Either by farming s-10 itself or farming items for s-10 toons. So I know the feeling of having your market taken away. I know, I know I could farm pearls, or camp mobs and what not, as the thousand credit guides show. I also consider myself a veteran. I was not any where near poor. What i don't understand is why the veterans who have literally everything are afraid of a price hike. You know why all the prices are dropping. It's demand. Not s-10. Less players for same amount of items= lower prices. All the money sinks in the world will solve nothing. Like usual the veterans who had it all wanted it to themselves, and managed to complain the way to victory. So what if my s-10 advy can out earn your army of 220's. Better go whine in a thread. Then bad mouth the people who whine about a random nerf. Then go to every thread and tell them to stop whining about s-10. In case some didn't notice the game starts at level 1 and not 220. I guess if you have to make all toons 220, at least the veterans will have someone to stand with in bor on the building and talk about how fun it used to be. You know back when people actually played ...

I feel like I might be missing something, but are you saying that you feel it's better to create credits out of thin air from NODROP items off aliens rather than circulate other misc items around the player-base, lowering it's general cost because there's just that much more existing in the world? Concrete Cushions, for example. Everyone needs them. Not everyone is has them. Are you telling me it's better to farm, say, s10 and make the money to buy it instead of taking 30 mins our of your day to roll/blitz/repeat two cushions?

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that circulating items is better for the economy than creating a surplus of credits.

[Manicmouse]

I feel like I might be missing something, but are you saying that you feel it's better to create credits out of thin air from NODROP items off aliens rather than circulate other misc items around the player-base, lowering it's general cost because there's just that much more existing in the world? Concrete Cushions, for example. Everyone needs them. Not everyone is has them. Are you telling me it's better to farm, say, s10 and make the money to buy it instead of taking 30 mins our of your day to roll/blitz/repeat two cushions?

One of the good things about AO is the market place and how one can pick up a pair of Concrete Cushions without having to farm them. A 220 character may feel they have a good flow of credits from other parts of the game and not want to take the time out to get items like this. At least with easy to get items like Concrete Cushions the price is usually reasonable as they're easy to farm but harder to get items really need to have drop rates improved so we don't have the situation where an item is worth over a billion!

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that circulating items is better for the economy than creating a surplus of credits.

There needs to the right balance between credits appearing from thin air and credits going into sinks so there is enough money for people to trade with but not so much that a high rate of inflation hits.

[Garremp]

I am a player from week 3 or so (with some breaks). I might have registered a bit later on the forums because usually i am a quiet reader and more like to think my part about it than writing some crap and get flamed. I was not even once in the s10 but i made a good "living" by supplying a lot of s10 twinks.

This is the Funcom way of doing stuff... wait way to long and then overreact. Credit supply from s10 was to high, not only it flooded the economy with new credits, the average credit/hour was way to high... and what did FC do? decrease it by 25%? Decrease it by 50 or 75%? No, from one patch to another it was shut down to 0%, eat that suckers... we know that behavior from so may situations, the platinum ingots for example.

Funcom stands for easy solutions to the most complex problems.

Combined Commandos Armor... what a mess... ranged skills, melee skills, all in one "useless" armor worn by almost every class endgame now. Why bother to make ranged-hp combinations or melee-evade combinations (and appropriate balance them) there is such an easy solution to make one armor that "fits" everybody.

Funcom stands for easy solutions to the most complex problems.

Battlestations... while they are a funny thing that got to be added (every mmo has some kind of x vs x pvp system to make pvp more enjoyable and less dependent on player count) they were the final nail in the coffin for open pvp. Oh yeah and i hate outside buffs in pvp... lvl 15 hnq behe gsf... i know they became a necessary evil but i see them as a simple solution to the fact that much more energy and items go into damage rather than defense.

Funcom stands for easy solutions to the most complex problems.
To bad that the easiest solution ain't always the best solution.

*) get a good overview how much credits a char can make at the moment. Blitzing, normal mission runs, average return on city raids or farming pocket bosses and then find an amount that is suitable for a lvl 150 char in relation to that. While we are at it, add an appropriate wayfor a lvl 220 too, not to much but a good way to earn fresh money.

**) remove combined commandos, let all existing parts be dismantled to the bots and add 2 or three new combinations that make more sense than that ranged-melee mixture that everybody is just wearing because a few more ar and add dmg.

***) introduce a way to gain vp with towers, lets say a small vps over time for charakters in the level range and orgs with towers in that certain level range.

****) give us special towers that kill all outside buffs like the decontamination room buff but only for certain buffs, buff level ranges and so on. people can than decide whether they want it or not.

Just some ideas and i am sure they ain't the best ideas what the community has to offer but it would be a great start to listen to the community instead of riding the community like a donkey with a carrot on a stick where the carrot is the "engine upgrade" or the "rebalance". No on shot rebalance will clean up the mess years of crappy decisions have left behind.

[Obtena]

I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume that the community will have in any case, a solution that's better than the one FC implemented because we, as a community, do not understand all the back office issues that AO has like the devs at FC do and it's also presumptuous to assume that the way FC has approached a particular problem was done because it was 'easy'. More speculation on your part.

That being said, I don't agree to the approach FC has taken for S10. It should have been left until the final fix was ready. Another 2 months of people farming bounties would not have changed anything in the game.

[Lazy]

I

Combined Commandos Armor... what a mess... ranged skills, melee skills, all in one "useless" armor worn by almost every class endgame now. Why bother to make ranged-hp combinations or melee-evade combinations (and appropriate balance them) there is such an easy solution to make one armor that "fits" everybody.
.

yea those cc nts are REALLY op...

and you really don't see anything wrong with giving enfos a free extra 210 evades?

**) remove combined commandos, let all existing parts be dismantled to the bots and add 2 or three new combinations that make more sense than that ranged-melee mixture that everybody is just wearing because a few more ar and add dmg.

it's quite the opposite. many profs has support for both ranged and melee toolsets. for example, did you know that an agent has GREEN sneakattack skill? it costs less for an agent to raise sneak than it does AS!

keepers wearing infantry eye get aimedshot for better using that retarded supernova


and just as many profs do WORSE in cc than in saner gear.


if anything should be removed from game it's that stupid troll pistol :/

[Garremp]

I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume that the community will have in any case, a solution that's better than the one FC implemented because we, as a community, do not understand all the back office issues that AO has like the devs at FC do and it's also presumptuous to assume that the way FC has approached a particular problem was done because it was 'easy'. More speculation on your part.

That being said, I don't agree to the approach FC has taken for S10. It should have been left until the final fix was ready. Another 2 months of people farming bounties would not have changed anything in the game.

I honestly disagree and i think that even funcom disagrees (their attempt to pull more people into the discussion with the nano documents prooves that they want or maybe need community input). the community has an edge over the fc-staff because we are actually playing the game. i have the honest respect for all the few people that are keeping that game alive but when i see that a bug that prevents people to enter a new instance (instanced s10 bug) do get on the live server is letting me doubt the effectiveness of their testers, the test-server and also lets me doubt the greatness of upcoming feature like the engine update or the rebalance.

yea those cc nts are REALLY op...

Ridiculous argument but still part of the same problem. there are classes that got AI armor exactly to their needs, nts, crats and fixers for example. the rest of the classes try to get the best out of a weak design idea with cc.

and you really don't see anything wrong with giving enfos a free extra 210 evades?

Rebalance. Classes need to be rebuild. Starting with the colors of their skills. MPs for example are now considered an evade class because of some weird armor/equip options but their evade skills are deep blue, enforcers are made to take a hit with their big hp but at the moment they don't even get hit with their massive evades (pve). If enforcer get their massive hp buffs a bit nerfed the hp from cm or the evades of a theoretical melee-evade armor will balance out pretty well and people will have to choose what they want/need instead using the flavor of the month/year/decade (or even mix the sets)

if anything should be removed from game it's that stupid troll pistol :/

Just another "easy" solution. the combat system and the balance as it is now would render some classes unkillable without AS. So everyone is going the AS way. To counter that they made so many rifles agent only put bows with AS in the game (the best AS weapon in the game is unaviable to agents) but never spent a thought of changing the underlying system (in the complete mess of the system maybe they don't even have the knowledge to change the underlaying system http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...ano+nerf+table ).

[Lazy]

if i came off as a bit harsh i appologise, but it feels like you literally smashed your head against the keyboard instead of thinking about what you're writing.

anyway, people that wear cc do so for one ( or more) of 3 reasons:

1) they need the 15 aao/aad per piece
2) they do a melee/ranged swap
3) they need the +10 dmg per piece

it has nothing to do with "making do" with an armor. in fact, it's the "perfect" armor for those that wear it.

in fact, look at all the profs that wear it:

keeper <-- ranged swap
shade <-- needs the 15 aao/aad
ma <-- ranged swap
enfo <-- needs the 15 aao/aad
engie <-- needs the +dmg


that's 5/14

compare that to people wearing css

fixer
crat
sold
mp
doc
agent
trader

7/14. half of all profs wear css.

clearly the problem isn't cc and the few profs for whom cc is the best armor certainly don't think it doesnt suit their needs.

[Gatester]

I have a 240ish and a 203 CC set because its cheaper than making a CM set and a CSS set of the same levels Especially now with observant bots being more expensive than supple or strong on RK2...

[Garremp]

The docs i know do mostly pve so they are more into cc. I am sure that is different in pvp, which because of the ultimate dominance of "flavor of the century"-classes and a non-teamplay attitute of most players became uninteresting to me.

you might got wrong what wanted to say. it bothers me that 14 classes are forced into one (and after reading your post two) armor sets. when sl came out there was some diversity in look and needs of the classes that manifest in the tier armor. I am not saying that they where perfect and i am not saying that ofab is anywhere close to perfect, but class depended armor makes it remotely possible to "balance" at all. You cant balance one set of armor so all the classes that gain profit from it get the same advancement out of it. And thats why i said that not all classes gain the same out of AI armor. Why bother equipping CSS on a MP when a fixer gets so much more out of it (and i am saying that with my MP was my first 220 char and today you rarely see an mp and even more rarely am MP in full CSS)? AI Armor at all was a bad idea, limiting the options of the players to choose from and decreased the ways for FC to tweak balance.

Or do you want to say that someone that rolls a Keeper plans from start (assumed that this is his first char) to use ranged weapons and AS in the endgame? Or tell a trader that after all his ransacks hit he will be anytime to short in AR?

[Lazy]

The docs i know do mostly pve so they are more into cc. I am sure that is different in pvp, which because of the ultimate dominance of "flavor of the century"-classes and a non-teamplay attitute of most players became uninteresting to me.

the docs you know are silly. the "cookiecutter pvm" doc setup is a mix of ofab and jathos.

you might got wrong what wanted to say. it bothers me that 14 classes are forced into one (and after reading your post two) armor sets. when sl came out there was some diversity in look and needs of the classes that manifest in the tier armor. I am not saying that they where perfect and i am not saying that ofab is anywhere close to perfect, but class depended armor makes it remotely possible to "balance" at all. You cant balance one set of armor so all the classes that gain profit from it get the same advancement out of it. And thats why i said that not all classes gain the same out of AI armor. Why bother equipping CSS on a MP when a fixer gets so much more out of it (and i am saying that with my MP was my first 220 char and today you rarely see an mp and even more rarely am MP in full CSS)? AI Armor at all was a bad idea, limiting the options of the players to choose from and decreased the ways for FC to tweak balance.

most tier armor sucks. it sucked when it came out and it sucks now. they've sort of fixed it with ofab, but there's still a HUGE disparity between the quality of ofab. keeper and sold ofab is AMAZING, while advies got shafted pretty hard. regardless, most profs have at least 1 good piece of ofab to wear, which is a step in the right direction.

mps wear css if bow and cs if shield because if they don't they insta-die.

there really should be more options at endgame, but getting rid of ai armor isn't the way to do it.

Or do you want to say that someone that rolls a Keeper plans from start (assumed that this is his first char) to use ranged weapons and AS in the endgame? Or tell a trader that after all his ransacks hit he will be anytime to short in AR?

by your logic, people rolling a fixer as their first toon don't expect to use onehander at endgame. people that roll enfs dont expect to be using 1hb/1he or 1hb/piercing and people that roll agents definately don't expect using a bow to OD their rifle.

the reason traders use css (or a mix of cs and css) is to cap as recharge on their silverbacks. if they're pvm they'll stick to a full set of cs.

[Kuegen]

most profs have at least 1 good piece of ofab to wear, which is a step in the right direction.

This. Ive always wanted them to redo the mods on tier armor to bring it up to date. Ideally, 1 piece of chosen/faithful would be better than AI armor in some slot.

[Garremp]

the docs you know are silly. the "cookiecutter pvm" doc setup is a mix of ofab and jathos.

if they want a top damage output they need the add damage from cc.

most tier armor sucks. it sucked when it came out and it sucks now. they've sort of fixed it with ofab, but there's still a HUGE disparity between the quality of ofab. keeper and sold ofab is AMAZING, while advies got shafted pretty hard. regardless, most profs have at least 1 good piece of ofab to wear, which is a step in the right direction.

i never said that tier is good but they where a step in the right direction as they where class specific and allowed class specific tweaking. In fact they where never tweaked, they have mostly the same (crappy) stats as they had when SL was released. Ofab on the other hand is for most classes and a lot of players the best pve armor (soloing) and the only thing that is reachable for them in terms of cost of time and credits. An armor that is only available through PVP is only good for PVE with some parts that are "usable" in PVP ?

there really should be more options at endgame, but getting rid of ai armor isn't the way to do it.

Well thats irritating. Offering more options will get rid of AI Armor.

by your logic, people rolling a fixer as their first toon don't expect to use onehander at endgame. people that roll enfs dont expect to be using 1hb/1he or 1hb/piercing and people that roll agents definately don't expect using a bow to OD their rifle.

by my logic every system that forces you to use some "flavor of the month" to be efficient is a bad system. in fact with the craphander alredy being used FC tried an "easy" fix and brought us the "Fantaghiro BBI-Viral Gold Star" which should give the fixers a strong additional attack to the burst, but then the Fullauto nervs occurred and that gun was obsolete before it really got used. Now fixers use a AS pistol and a burst/fling gun and a lot of the classes do the same, crats, docs, soldiers, engineers...

the reason traders use css (or a mix of cs and css) is to cap as recharge on their silverbacks. if they're pvm they'll stick to a full set of cs.

i'll forward this statement to a trader, mp or keeper that still plays his char as a mainchar... oh wait... they are already gone! Most paying costumers are gone. Something made them leave. My personal guess is that they where disappointed with the way AO has developed so my idea is to concentrate on some old strengths of the game.

[Kuegen]

Well thats irritating. Offering more options will get rid of AI Armor.

Ofab was an option, yet AI armor remains.