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Thread: Farmers, and farming.

  1. #1

    Farmers, and farming.

    Many people have left AO over the years, for a plethora of reasons.

    Funcom has had a soft spot for players like froobs, who bring a valuable commodity to the game by just being present. Without froobs, this game could have not continued the way it has in the past.

    As much as it pains me to admit it, in these harsh empty times the s10 nerf hit and many farmers also rapidly vacated the game. Some say this needed to happen, others say it didn't. TBH, the farmers never really bothered me unless they were purposefully ripping my own farms from underneath me. For the most part, that was a rare occasion, and thats just a beef between players. Very little of it had anything to do with funcom, AO, or the direction of the game.

    I approved it when my guildmates built toons for s10. I told them it was a valuable resource for people to get ahead should they not mind staying at the appropriate levels for a while. I also approved it when they went there in groups.

    Over time, farmers in AO are like farmers in any game. You can't be rid of them without stripping from them what it is that they farm. Stripping the bounties and the CRU from cut deeply into a huge portion of people making money and tokens. The game feels already rapidly approaching a death rattle, and has been so for a long time. Is it really smart to divert it so much that you end up removing farmers from the game as well? I farm. I won't lie. Parts of this game are designed to allow farming of things, from money, to tokens, to rewards of rare drops and other things. It is kinda beaten into us. Now, I don't make it a daily habit to farm like a madman but these people do have a place in the game as well, just as much as froobs. Farmers pay to play too, though, not all of them are not on the straight and narrow so much. But, that doesn't remove their total niche in the game as much as anyone else.

    If you wanna destroy exploiters, the fine. You won't hear any argument from me. Exploiters tend to be farmers, but its not always mutually inclusive. I'd mostly suggest an implemention that doesn't stop other people from farming what they choose or need to.

    It takes work to make money in this game. It takes money to buy the higher end things like alien armor and the like. People feel a sense of accomplishment when their hard work, patience, time in, and subscription fees come to fruition. I'm not saying rollback s10 either. But, like the newbie island experience it should still feel like its a asset to the game.

    That's called progress.
    Last edited by Bubbacrush; Jan 9th, 2012 at 05:17:03.
    Towerblock, 220/30/70 Engineer
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    It takes work to make money in this game. It takes money to buy the higher end things like alien armor and the like. People feel a sense of accomplishment when their hard work, patience, time in, and subscription fees come to fruition.
    I *am* new (yes we exist), worked hard for everything I have... (And awesome org ofc!)

    There are fundamental issues that go beyond s10, or any other newbie handholding needed/en route when it comes to the economy. (I full well remember getting my first million... o' the monster parts ground...)

    Let's say I can buy most things; nanos, yalms, weapons, symbs, even spendy things like Art of Peace. The gulf between these and AI armor (Billions!?!?!) is massive, I don't even have the alts to hold the all creds needed! lol

    Yet so many jaded vets scoff at all my hard work; "Hurr, no full set of 300 CC, you suq!"
    I make it look easy, 'cause it is to me.

  3. #3
    So, if I'm understanding this right, you want to give the farmers something else to farm? In place of s10? Or, possibly, as a second s10?

    I think most of the whiners and players who quit after s10 nerf were players who built their lives and characters around s10. It was a valuable place to make money, but I don't think we need a replacement for it. I think people need to learn to make more money elsewhere, and enjoy their character.

    I agree there are people who enjoy farming or grinding. But I'll go out on a limb and argue that there's not a single player who enjoys sitting in one zone, all day, doing the same thing for hours upon hours upon hours. That's not farming. That's not grinding. That's something far beyond that.
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  4. #4
    I still do S10 all the time and some how make money!

    like wtf S:
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  5. #5
    Funcom failed to fix the problem.. they just made it so players had one less solution. (And for those that don't know what i mean by the problem.. it is the fact that you cannot obtain decent armor, weapons, implants, consumables, huds/utils via the normal course of your leveling. You have to set aside time for leveling, set aside time for farming for gear and set aside time for farming for money. Most players, in this day and age, aren't willing to do that and don't even understand the concept after playing games like WoW.)

    If they put in a solution to the problem, they won't have to fix anything because people won't be bothered to go to a place like S10 and farm bounties.. they'd have a reasonable avenue to obtain what they need just from playing the game.
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  6. #6
    /人 ◕‿‿◕ 人\ Lazy's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Merit View Post
    I *am* new (yes we exist), worked hard for everything I have... (And awesome org ofc!)

    There are fundamental issues that go beyond s10, or any other newbie handholding needed/en route when it comes to the economy. (I full well remember getting my first million... o' the monster parts ground...)

    Let's say I can buy most things; nanos, yalms, weapons, symbs, even spendy things like Art of Peace. The gulf between these and AI armor (Billions!?!?!) is massive, I don't even have the alts to hold the all creds needed! lol

    Yet so many jaded vets scoff at all my hard work; "Hurr, no full set of 300 CC, you suq!"
    you. i like you. please post more.
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  7. #7
    While it was nice that you could farm enough to fund your endgame in S10, the fundamental awesomeness of it was the fact that there was a PURPOSE to exist at some level other than 220.

    Like it or not for whatever it's game impact, S10 made a subcommunity in AO. We need more of that.
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  8. #8
    Selling VP/tockens / ipr dont put fresh credits in the system (been said 100 times already)

    My main grudge I have against FC for S10 is, that when FC rewaped S10 to make gen spawnable, the bounty droprate was increased a lot, and there was a lot of thread/posts warning FC about the credit injected in the economy... and it took wayyyy long time for FC to act.
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  9. #9
    the devs did a one-two punch really.

    1. remove bounties

    A few years back i had my fun in that place, and eventually moved on and never went back except to get ICE now and then. I think i spent far more credits on s10 toons than i ever made back, but it was something to do, and it was a culture in and of itself that had a rather large economy based around it. Had bounties been something else that were tradable, and used in a useful tradeskill of some kind instead of being a credit seed, they would still be there and s10 would still be alive and well. just up and removing them shows no imagination, or care on the devs part to keep those people who utilize that playfield interested.

    2. init cap removal

    many end game instances were easily done with 2 toons, even duel logged. the same was for dreadlochs. with the right combination, and the right setup, you could legitimately complete endgame encounters without any tricks or cheating, figuring it out was as exhilarating as twinking. spending months and years to level toons to 220, and get all the right gear, and figure out just the right setup to make it all happen; its magic I tell ya.

    Again, this was a culture in and of itself, that had a rather large economy under it. those that liked to buy their endgame stuff had the ability to do so. I personally never farmed Pande, as that was one place I enjoyed doing raids in, so I know what OP is referring to when he is calling farmers sploiters... Pande farmers certainly were. but, the init cap removal made a number of encounters impossible unless triple logged, and made the instances still doable with 2 toons more difficult. all the casual farmers of these instances are gone from what i can tell, and the hardcore ones along with them. Alappa is still doable, but that's boring as all get out. its decent credits, but better done in teams. db2 is still dual log-able, but i will scratch my eyes out if I set foot in there again, and albatraum is still dual log-able, but insanely difficult if one is not prepared. The result of the init cap removal is yet another sub-culture of the game torn out by the roots and left to dry in the sun. 95% of players go "I didn't notice any changes," and thats how a game slowly dies:

    like a loaf of bread, it goes one slice at a time, until your left with a couple pieces.
    Last edited by SoapTarder; Jan 9th, 2012 at 16:17:14.
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  10. #10
    Why do people seem to ignore the fact that s10 can still net you lots of money? People make the statement but SWOOSH, they just continue with their "s10 is nurfed baw baw baw"

    Get your org to raid with you, it makes money.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Flykites 213/29/50 Nano-Technician // World 171/24/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/19/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Notcrattey View Post
    ...SWOOSH...
    gah, you didn't just do that
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

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  12. #12
    Good post bubba. Nice to hear comments on the s10 change from a more.... mature point of view.

    There was something nice about the farm. And this farm was easy and reliable. Other things you have to sell to players. "10m? LMAO im not paying that!" and if those types of situations werent enough, theres also the chance that items decrease in price. Something about making credits from the game rather than players is just a lot more satisfying. If only there was a way to implement it without draining the economy.

    Oh and Obtena makes a good point. Means was saying how a level 150 toon shouldnt be the source of income for our mains, but the fact that there was an option other than being 220 was nice.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SoapTarder View Post
    many end game instances were easily done with 2 toons, even duel logged.

    And you don't see anything wrong with that ? It needed a fix.. A endgame instance shouldn't be something you can do yourself duallogged while watching tv and hitting a few buttons every 60 seconds, it is supposed to be a challenge.
    NO U

  14. #14
    Many important points are made, some of which I can get behind. Come I can't.

    When Means said that a lvl 150 shouldnt make the money to fund all tl7's. That's outright fallacy. You can set up almost any level toon already to make a good lot of cash, and depend on that toon should you need to. I have a level 60 mp toon that has the ability to kill AI generals in the 20th of the time it takes to kill one with my 220. It might not net me the same amount of cash, but its FAR easier to make a lvl 60 twink then it can be to grind all the way to 220 and farm that way. You also don't need a 220 to farm symbiants either. Most people have been doing it dual logged for years.

    So I can't logically buy the argument about 150 s10 toons not "supposed" to fun end game toons. You don't need s10 nor 150 to do that. It just became a reliable source as a majority vote.

    Did s10 need a fix? Quite possible, yes. Do you think this was the best fix? Could there have been other options? Of course. What really got me thinking about this, is milepoint markers in the game. S10 was a very popular one. People gathered there, and it was a hub of activity. Now, not so much. People used to gather around very particular points like it in the past, but many of those have been patched out as well. Is it still used? Sure. But its lost much of its shiny.

    Because something is outdated, shouldn't mean its beyond use. Examples that can be looked at are the Arenas, or places like Will to Fight. They literally have not much use anymore. Crypt of Home, when was the last time you say groups of people in there?

    It seems like a total waste of real estate, where they used to hold a certain importance. Their importance has dwindled over time, and now all of them seem equally vacant, much like any other important hub that was something but then got patched away into obscurity.

    It looses players, in a community that can't afford to loose players in. I understand that the targetting of players who exploited s10 were the reason of the bounty and CRU nerf. But, on top of attacking them, you attack everyone else that has had a stake there.

    Had this choice been made in AO's heyday, I might have been singing a different song about this. But today's game is much different, and it spreads bad rep. I've seen the game from a new players perspective, and that appealing to that perspective is what is going to keep this game running. If the game is going to beat it into their heads about farming and getting ahead, then lets keep it on the level. Attacking farmers to get at their percentage of exploiters is not entirely fair.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuyt View Post
    And you don't see anything wrong with that ? It needed a fix.. A endgame instance shouldn't be something you can do yourself duallogged while watching tv and hitting a few buttons every 60 seconds, it is supposed to be a challenge.
    you sir didn't read my post, and have no clue about what you quoted. when i say "easily" I'm referring to doable by anyone with a large investment of time.
    Last edited by SoapTarder; Jan 9th, 2012 at 19:57:05.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Funcom failed to fix the problem.. they just made it so players had one less solution. (And for those that don't know what i mean by the problem.. it is the fact that you cannot obtain decent armor, weapons, implants, consumables, huds/utils via the normal course of your leveling. You have to set aside time for leveling, set aside time for farming for gear and set aside time for farming for money. Most players, in this day and age, aren't willing to do that and don't even understand the concept after playing games like WoW.)
    QFT. Why would a prospective player choose this game, where you have to devote significant amounts of play time to farming for money/gear (a downright boring process) in order to continue leveling properly, over one that lets them obtain those things while leveling?
    I don't want to be Elfstar any more. I want to be Debbie.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbacrush View Post
    Crypt of Home, when was the last time you say groups of people in there?
    The day of it's release maybe? CoH is a pretty bad example.
    Dagger 220/30/70 Shade // Attempted 219/24/?? Enforcer // Flykites 213/29/50 Nano-Technician // World 171/24/32 Meta-Physicist// Cramp 150/19/35 Engineer
    Ya wanna fix something - give RK mobs better xp, make RK matter again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mamman View Post
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Notcrattey View Post
    The day of it's release maybe? CoH is a pretty bad example.
    I used to run into groups all the time when I was running cerubin on every single engi I rolled. There were always groups attacking kizzers, crawlers, or just doing content.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    QFT. Why would a prospective player choose this game, where you have to devote significant amounts of play time to farming for money/gear (a downright boring process) in order to continue leveling properly, over one that lets them obtain those things while leveling?
    What Jill said is true, but I don't think it is a problem. That is precisely one of the tings I like about AO, you just don't get things automatically as you level, you actually have to decide what you want, and play to get it. I find it so boring when you get all the stuff and money you need just by by doing leveling content.

    This for sure will not please a lot of new players. But I think it is one of the things that make AO special, and I would not want to see AO's spirit completely changed just to potentially please the crowd.
    Last edited by Thorneee; Jan 9th, 2012 at 21:35:28.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorneee View Post
    What Jill said is true, but I don't think it is a problem. That is precisely one of the tings I like about AO, you just don't get things automatically as you level, you actually have to decide what you want, and play to get it. I find it so boring when you get all the stuff and money you need just by by doing leveling content.
    And I find it boring when I have to stop doing something that is at least somewhat fun (progressing my character) in order to do some utterly repetitive task to make money just so I can continue doing what I was already doing in the first place.
    This for sure will not please a lot of new players. But I think it is one of the things that make AO special, and I would not want to see AO's spirit completely changed just to potentially please the crowd.
    "You have to grind in order to grind" is not AO's spirit, and its not what makes it special. It's a crappy old concept that existed in a number of MMOs and MUDs, most of which are dead or forgotten by now.

    But hey, maybe nothing should change, and we should just complain about the ever-shrinking population instead of doing something about it.
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