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Thread: Farmers, and farming.

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Khlin View Post
    Sorry, but so far s10 only showed how broken other ranges were in terms of being able to farm some stuff for your character.

    The fact that everyone and his dog had/has an s10 dedicated so he/she/it could provide funds for the tl7 toon proves my point.
    i've spent exponentially more on gearing a 150 toon than i've ever earned from actually going there. hell just my 150 agent cost something around 1b in combined armors and the total i've ever farmed in there is in the range of 300m. there's a lot more profitable ways of making money in ao. people are just lazy and stupid.

  2. #42
    Replace the nerfed s10 money farms by re-itemizing RK/LE and SL missions. Add some new model/module rooms, bump up the experience gain, token reward and mission completion bonus, remove the tradeskill trash drops and change the boss room [ increase the room size 10 fold, add mines and cams and some environmental fx flavor].

    Missions are easy on developer resources, newbies as well as vets will benefit from the change and missions are unique to AO.


    Just an adjustment, not a completely new system.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    people are just lazy
    Coming from you, this is funny

    @Kuegen : Thank you ! I started writing a long post the other day but realized that drainbamage visibly has some interest in AO but likes wow much more.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Theyre boring to some, not so to others. There is no universal bore to everyone. AO is this type of game. If you dont like it then dont play. There are plenty of other games closer to the leveling system you would prefer. Play those just like you probably are right now. It would be better to have variety in the MMO world than simply different themes that all accommodate to your preferences.
    There is variety, and there is bad game design. You can like bad design all you want but don't conflate one with the other.

    Compare games like WoW, EVE, Guild Wars and D2 (not technically an MMO but close enough). All of them are quite different in style and design, and any given person might not like some (or any) of them, but when looked at from a design perspective the good and bad decisions stand out, and generally speaking, the good outweight the bad. AO is frankly riddled with bad decisions, and over the years many of them have been haphazardly jury-rigged or outright ignored.
    Agreed twinking would still be around. But my point was gearing as you level up. Toons you level up arent the most hardcore twinks, but you have to put a little effort into them. This makes being decent for your level require no effort, or leveling require no effort. The current state is gearing and leveling are two different aspects of this games, I view it as removing half of the content rather than halving each side. (If you do not understand that sentence then dont try to argue against it. Only applicable depending on your counter argument to the sentence before.)
    Actually, no, you don't have to put effort into them, which is evidenced by the threads and posts always popping up where people complain about leechers and woefully undergeared people in inf missions. Making gear more accessible would improve the experiences of everyone involved, except possibly people who are outraged that someone got something without having to "work" as hard as they did.
    If AO became a sci-fi WoW then it would be dead to me and lots of people. I would just rather it not exist at that point than put into the huge pile of MMOs with nearly identical systems. That said, I am not saying adding quests here and there will make AO into WoW. Being able to obtain all the gear you need, even if slightly downgraded from the "best", would push it more towards the model that WoW is built on. This model is unappealing to some players and is not the AO I have learned to love.
    I want you to actually quantify what it is about being able to get gear from quests that is unappealing, especially when it's not something you personally have to do. Would it seriously upset you if other people didn't have to farm for gear or credits when they're just trying to level up?
    In your opinion. I actually dont mind the leveling system right now. The part I really dislike is 80-140. How many alts did you have? I find it fun doing things here and there on several alts. I don't really care if you quit because the leveling system isn't just the way you want it. It doesn't even help your argument. I'm glad you dont pay for a game you hate I suppose, and I hope you find a game that you like.
    2 220s, a TL6 keeper I shelved due to boredom, and a bunch of <100s.

    You might not care about me quitting, but I'm sure FC gets a bit worried whenever someone quits, since it's not like they're a very successful company in the first place.
    Furthermore, I proposed many additions and fixes to the games current content that people have been asking for years.
    ...
    Readjusting quests and adding instances like these will yield results very similar to adding a few quests. We have a quest that people cant do, make it doable, now they have a quest to do.
    I agree. Difference is, I think fixing existing content doesn't go far enough; more content needs to be added.
    Sector 10 was a fabulous place in my opinion. Might have been economy breaking, but as i leveled up my toons, I didnt really see anything wrong with the economy. There should be breaking points, because as someone else said in another thread (oh wait was that this thread? haha), it gives us a reason to not just rush to 220.
    ...
    There are already reasons to not "rush to 220". Towers, instance twinks, whatever.


    edit: Also I find it rather interesting how so many people cry about WoW when it and AO are essentially cousins. EQ derivatives don't fall far from the tree.
    Last edited by drainbamage; Jan 11th, 2012 at 22:47:27.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    There are already reasons to not "rush to 220". Towers, instance twinks, whatever.
    You outline the ones that are specific to PVP and if you are being honest, you know that appeals to a minority of players. In addition, whatever 'reasons' or activities there are to not rush to 220 that are based in PVM aren't reasons to eliminate the one that makes S10 great. None of them compare frankly. If you look at the approach FC has taken to develop the game in the last 4-5 years, then no, there isn't a reason to not rush to 220. TL7 has been the focus of their development. If you believe otherwise, you need to take a more objective look at the history of the game.

    I have always been an advocate of 'spreading' content love, especially with repeatable things at all the TLs. The change to S10 is the wrong direction from the point of view that it brought so many different kinds of players together with different objectives. Some just want to build the BEST twink, some people just wanted money, some just wanted to max out before progressing to the next stage of character development. ALL of that happened in S10. Despite it's impact on coffers, that made it literally, the best PF in the game.
    Last edited by Obtena; Jan 11th, 2012 at 23:27:18.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    i've spent exponentially more on gearing a 150 toon than i've ever earned from actually going there. hell just my 150 agent cost something around 1b in combined armors and the total i've ever farmed in there is in the range of 300m. there's a lot more profitable ways of making money in ao. people are just lazy and stupid.
    relating to what obtena just said, one of the reasons some may of had to make an/many s10 twink(s) was purely to twink, like you obviously did, as did I. the ICE drops was what I went there for, as did a lot of city farmers. lazy and stupid? i think you can direct that comment towards the dev's if anyone. the way s10 was designed regarding loot table and how it was recently nerfed fall nicely into that description.
    wtf happened to my avatars eyebrows?

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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    I want you to actually quantify what it is about being able to get gear from quests that is unappealing, especially when it's not something you personally have to do. Would it seriously upset you if other people didn't have to farm for gear or credits when they're just trying to level up?
    You realize you're asking me to quantify a statement that is qualitative and based on opinion. Nonetheless I'll flesh out my point of view.

    First I'll have to define some concepts. "Efficient twinking" is a form of twinking that uses practical items and produces the best results. What a practical item is depends on the player's budget and resources. It is based on the prices of the twinking process and the time it would take. I do not have any form of calculation to define when an item is practical, its kind of just intuitive. This is the twinking method of PvM. PvP twinks are more hardcore and care little about practicality. Its pretty easy to understand this. Would you drag your level 15 soldier all the way out to inferno just to get him a +10 ring, when you plan on leveling the next day? Kudos to the PvMers who would go to those extremes, but it is impractical. I wouldn't even bother getting my +10 ring until I was at least 160. Also "Twinking" is a term argued among player a lot. I simply consider it the spending of money and time - time away from leveling - to better gear your toon, at least for the case of my explanation.

    If you have not guessed, I am primarily a PvMer. The way I've learned to love PvM is twinking in stages as I level, putting on the best practical gear. The gear my toons have and the way they are setup is not the best - any true twink will easily outperform me. However because of my twinking I often feel that my strengths shine for my level in teams and that I make a difference towards the teams success. Some people don't bother, they just rush to 220 and start on their endgame gear. I have nothing against that, I do similar things sometimes. But I like to arrive in inferno with something other than a medsuit. That is what I enjoy about PvM. You could say that I like to show off and feel good as I see all the gimp powerlevelers. I put a decent amount of work, perhaps more than others do, and I have better results.

    Now lets say we introduce new gear from quests that are exceptional. Lets say in fact that there are enough quests that all of your gear can be obtained from questing. Questing I should add that is also the quickest way to level. Efficient twinking will in effect, vanish. It would be way more efficient to simply level up - in other words, do quests - then to level up, twink, level up some more. You would trade little power, and save lots of money/time. If this is unclear I will try an example below.

    I consider Dchest a practical item. It is much cheaper yet more powerful than alien armor for MA users, and very easy to put on. Lets say a new item, the Spirit Hunter Cuirass (SHC), is introduced as a quest reward. This by your standards wouldn't be as good as a Dchest. Tack off 100 HP, 10 MA, and 10 add dmg to make it slightly weaker, adjust ACs as necessary. Thats quite a bit weaker, but it is still a very powerful piece of armor. Assuming the price of the Dchest stays at 250m~, it would be very impractical to use. Why spend 250m on something that is only better by that margin. In fact, people who couldn't afford the Dchest will now have something that is almost as good. I am certain you're thought at this point is, "Nothing is stopping you from using the Dchest," but you must understand. With such quest rewards I have no reason to use a Dchest, other than the fact that I already own it. If the way I level provides me the gear I need, That would make leveling the way to most efficiently twink. Efficient twinking will cease to exist because of my definition of twinking. Efficient twinking is what I enjoy, get rid of it and I lose what I enjoy. Simple as that.

    I don't know what you are going to say, my definitions can be argued, but they are irrelevant to my explanation. I simply need to associate some word with my own thought, you cant argue with what I think. You cant argue that I don't enjoy what I enjoy either. So if you seriously wanted an explanation then there it is. There is no logical way to refute it because its an emotional appeal. When It comes down to it, one can really, fully logically explain why they like something. It will always be reduced to one liking with no explanation. If I tried to explain why I like efficient twinking I would probably say its because I like problem solving, but what then? Why do I like problem solving? Its just inherent to my character. There's no logical argument as to why we like something. The most logic I can provide in not turning AO quest-based would be that I have never found another game with the system I like about AO. Other games I've played seem similar to eachother. Let AO stay different, if some dislike it they should play another game. I'm not trying to be cynical, I wouldn't go to WoW and say they have to change their system because I don't like it. I expect people to not do the same here.

    Regarding your question, people don't have to farm as they level up. You said so yourself. Plenty of leechers and gimp powerlevelers. Should people work if they want to be better? Yes. It would upset me if this feature disappeared.

    Now not all gear from quests would have to be like the SHC. The miscellaneous rings from the ely quests, nanos from Scheol, and the ado brain are all great rewards that don't ruin efficient twinking. The ado brain takes a long time to get so can be impractical at times. Nanoprograms are a form of gear that can almost always be added without risk of eliminating efficient twinking. Twinking gear like the QL 120 rings is always nice too because its only useful if you decide to twink, and makes twinking more beneficial. I would love to see items for unusable slots, such as a utils item for level 30+. And I would love to see more quests, instances, and storyline. Lumping material rewards with XP rewards is just a no-no(a few exceptions are fine).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    You outline the ones that are specific to PVP and if you are being honest, you know that appeals to a minority of players. In addition, whatever 'reasons' or activities there are to not rush to 220 that are based in PVM aren't reasons to eliminate the one that makes S10 great. None of them compare frankly. If you look at the approach FC has taken to develop the game in the last 4-5 years, then no, there isn't a reason to not rush to 220. TL7 has been the focus of their development. If you believe otherwise, you need to take a more objective look at the history of the game.

    I have always been an advocate of 'spreading' content love, especially with repeatable things at all the TLs. The change to S10 is the wrong direction from the point of view that it brought so many different kinds of players together with different objectives. Some just want to build the BEST twink, some people just wanted money, some just wanted to max out before progressing to the next stage of character development. ALL of that happened in S10. Despite it's impact on coffers, that made it literally, the best PF in the game.
    This ^^
    s10 was one area that was populated - for whatever reasons. Personally, I have a fully twinked MA and it was fun to build, but since ai20 havent been back but to team with org and help do pbs. Those that say people farmed it to support 220s, well I have 6 and never used s10 to fund them - really dont have to as its much more efficient to farm the $$$$ items and sell the extra stuff I find.

    I also believe that the nerf stick to s10 was - in part - to take the blame for some other credit exploits in the game that occurred. I was in s10 alot with my MA and never had the issues that some reported, except the occassional player (no different than any other zone). Most nights I had mid-zone to myself or a couple of others.

    FC could have reduced the drop rates of bounties, but the complete removal of bounties and ICE was not thought through well - and if there is an update coming to s10 as was elluded, then please give us some info.
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  9. #49
    Well I guess we're at an impasse then, because while I can understand your point of view I cannot empathize with it at all. The idea that games should involve work (in the "repetitive menial task" sense) is absurd to me.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    Well I guess we're at an impasse then, because while I can understand your point of view I cannot empathize with it at all. The idea that games should involve work (in the "repetitive menial task" sense) is absurd to me.
    Exactly my point, you dont have to empathize with my opinion on what is "fun". My point is that there are not enough games like this out there, and that if people wished for the "WoW" model they can find it other places. AO doesn't need to drastically change to accommodate every player.

    But that said, im still interested in specifics of quests that should be added. Use my model as a base since its probably not enough to you, or start one from scratch.

  11. #51

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Khlin View Post
    Sorry, but so far s10 only showed how broken other ranges were in terms of being able to farm some stuff for your character.

    The fact that everyone and his dog had/has an s10 dedicated so he/she/it could provide funds for the tl7 toon proves my point.
    I did profits from s10, without using my dedicated (ultra cheap setuped) s10 toon(s10 farming was the most boring thing FC ever did).
    How?

    1) Buying all arith bots when princes went to 5m per bot dued to the excess of offer.

    2) Selling symbs for all the MA u rolled.

    3) Selling vp i farmed in bs daily, with my ultrastripped mr punchball ma.

    4) Selling hugeloads of novi/pattern for the mas that found my symbs prices outrageous.

    5) Keeping an updated set of ma nanos in my city shop (weird prices ofc).

    6) Looting all the ICEs u left rotting on aliens.

    And yes, fc pls make another instance where just a profession can solo, cuz im goin out my credz and i need to speculate on those again!
    Last edited by drakio; Jan 17th, 2012 at 22:02:52.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by drakio View Post
    I did profits from s10, without using my dedicated (ultra cheap setuped) s10 toon(s10 farming was the most boring thing FC ever did).
    How?

    1) Buying all arith bots when princes went to 5m per bot dued to the excess of offer.

    2) Selling symbs for all the MA u rolled.

    3) Selling vp i farmed in bs daily, with my ultrastripped mr punchball ma.

    4) Selling hugeloads of novi/pattern for the mas that found my symbs prices outrageous.

    5) Keeping an updated set of ma nanos in my city shop (weird prices ofc).

    6) Looting all the ICEs u left rotting on aliens.

    And yes, fc pls make another instance where just a profession can solo, cuz im goin out my credz and i need to speculate on those again!
    Heh... I could easily make 700-800mils if I start selling my ICE. But never going to happen since my friends made themselves scarce on RK4 so I'm down to doing ground raids which have craptastic droprates.

    Otherwise, bounties were just a nice extra bonus for me in s10 and I could have done without since they got the PBs in.

    And definitely true, selling nanos for +5mils a pop is nice

    Also, a lot of the bounties I looted on my s10 toons went for their 2.5k tokens since this was before daily missions. Talk about feeling cheated now for more than 1.5-2bils
    Last edited by Khlin; Jan 18th, 2012 at 10:06:42.
    ----------------------------
    Showing why AO forum is not to be trusted - on S10 inflation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    Multiple players in my org can make 200-300m maybe even 400m depending on lucky drops in 2 hours of farming the place. If you cannot see this as being an issue, then I don't know how to help you.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Khlin View Post
    Heh... I could easily make 700-800mils if I start selling my ICE. But never going to happen since my friends made themselves scarce on RK4 so I'm down to doing ground raids which have craptastic droprates.

    Otherwise, bounties were just a nice extra bonus for me in s10 and I could have done without since they got the PBs in.

    And definitely true, selling nanos for +5mils a pop is nice

    Also, a lot of the bounties I looted on my s10 toons went for their 2.5k tokens since this was before daily missions. Talk about feeling cheated now for more than 1.5-2bils


    yeah daily mish tokens > bounty ones, and im keeping my ices aswell, ice + random 50% cru= 2 city raids.

    Toh best business was the ariths bots, i didn't belive to my eyes when i saw em goin for 5m each.

    Actually my levelling toons are using ariths and/or CO, instead of medsuits

    Was fun the speculation activity, even if u can do still lots of it working wisely on GMS, if u works well u can do lots of millons still
    Last edited by drakio; Jan 18th, 2012 at 22:32:05.

  14. #54
    The game shouldn't be satisfying the needs of a small subset of MMO players. That IS the problem. It is the reason the game is dieing. You, Kuegen are in a SMALL minority of players that enjoy grinding the way the game is set up to do currently. To keep the game alive and draw new players in, MANY quest lines need to be added to provide valued content and give players more CHOICES in things to do and not be forced to follow the same level progression over and over for every single toon.
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by smokex View Post
    The game shouldn't be satisfying the needs of a small subset of MMO players. That IS the problem. It is the reason the game is dieing. You, Kuegen are in a SMALL minority of players that enjoy grinding the way the game is set up to do currently. To keep the game alive and draw new players in, MANY quest lines need to be added to provide valued content and give players more CHOICES in things to do and not be forced to follow the same level progression over and over for every single toon.
    This game also shouldnt be developed by the standards of a bunch of other MMOs.

    Also, stop making up facts.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by smokex View Post
    The game shouldn't be satisfying the needs of a small subset of MMO players. That IS the problem. It is the reason the game is dieing. You, Kuegen are in a SMALL minority of players that enjoy grinding the way the game is set up to do currently. To keep the game alive and draw new players in, MANY quest lines need to be added to provide valued content and give players more CHOICES in things to do and not be forced to follow the same level progression over and over for every single toon.
    The only reason this game is alive is because it's unique. Remove that part that sets it apart from other MMOs and you essentially have SW:TOR/WoW with ugly graphics, lots of bugs and wonky game mechanics.

    Please, explain to me why you'd rather change AO to be SW:TOR or WoW but older and buggier which would completely alienate the current community. Also please explain how this would help the game in any way.

    AO can't compete with current-gen MMOs when the same market is tapped. The only way to compete is to pander to the more niche markets.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by fortior View Post
    The only reason this game is alive is because it's unique. Remove that part that sets it apart from other MMOs and you essentially have SW:TOR/WoW with ugly graphics, lots of bugs and wonky game mechanics.

    Please, explain to me why you'd rather change AO to be SW:TOR or WoW but older and buggier which would completely alienate the current community. Also please explain how this would help the game in any way.

    AO can't compete with current-gen MMOs when the same market is tapped. The only way to compete is to pander to the more niche markets.
    haha thats a good way of putting it. AO would be one of the worst WoW-type games out there! haha
    Lilkueg 220/26/6x Opifex Shade
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  18. #58
    I think there's a middle ground. I don't feel that AO should go the way of WoW but at the same time, there are some things that can/should be added to make it more appealing to those people that can't sit in front of their computers playing AO for 8hrs a day. I mean, when I first started playing AO back in 2004.. I had a completely different lifestyle. I could play all day/night if I wanted to.. and quite often did. As time has gone on, however, my real life obligations have meant less active play time in AO.. and I've seen that the same applies to many, if not most, of the people that I know in-game.

    I love AO for what it is, but asking for some of the grind to be made 'reasonable' isn't taking away from the game. If you want to keep the 30-something folks playing and feeling entertained (which for most people means some level of reasonable progression over time) then you've got to add some of the elements you see in WoW and other games. Otherwise, the niche market whose consumers now have jobs, wives/husbands and kids.. whether they enjoy AO or not simply won't be able to play it.

    I personally am logged into AO all day long with it on one of my monitors while I"m working and doing other stuf.. barely paying attention. But to be honest, my 'active' playtime is generally reduced to about 3hrs a day.. usually consisting of me spending time doing some sort of raid/team that I organized ahead of time. At this point, I won't even be able to do that for awhile. If I knew AO was the type of game that I could log in to and play without having to arrange raids a week in advance and actually 'work' to organize events.. I'd probably still be able to play regardless of my RL situation. But it isn't..so when RL gets hectic, AO gets put aside even though I may very well pick-up a leisurely WoW-style game or two in the interim that I can log in to for 2hrs and actually have fun and progress.
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  19. #59

    Agreed

    I been playing the game for 6 years and never had a problem with farmers in S10. Usually they would go deeper and I would stay near the entrance. I noticed that the game has quieted down quiet a bit although there should be more ways of paid accounts to make money.

  20. #60
    The nerf to s10 hurt a lot of people, some choose to leave the game some just moved on and desperately tried to find a way to make an income. The truth is bounties wasn't an issue, nor was ICE obviously. But when people who have vet accts that 'solo' playfields dual logged and sell loots rights try to comment on this, they don't realize not everyone wants to have to dual log to get items/creds. S10 was a great way to just have one acct, and make money. I'm fully for bringing back s10 bounties and ofc ICE. I have 220 enfo, and yet still there's not much to farm to make credits. FC slowly and surely turning me away from this game, it's just patch after patch of crap that doesn't really fix anything just makes everything else worse so things don't seem as bad in contrast. It's pretty easy to assume what the game needs sitting in a tower over looking what's happening but they're completely missing the actually aspect of PLAYING THIS GAME AT ALL.

    Like mentioned the gap in having a good character and one with some kind of 300 ai armor is way to massive, CC/CSS costs are beyond stupid, some people don't even have the alts/means to carry that much money. The more and more you think about it the more reasons there are to quit AO

    I fear the day someone realizes the only allure to AO is a simple system of amazing potential, and they emulate said system and everyone leaves AO because it's obsolete. I both fear and greatly anticipate that day.

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