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Thread: Monthly Development Update: January 2012

  1. #161
    Please get the engine up and running soon so we can get new players. My baby advy is running around TOTW and I'm shocked whenever I see a white dot on the minimap. Word of advice: here on RK4 we have these things called "buses", and people put adverts on them so other people can know of new things to spend money on...
    I'm a Froob Neutral Trade Skilling Nanomage Engineer- by definition I hide round corners and let the bot do the fighting.

  2. #162
    Fair critique but let's see what's there to reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Hmm, so the argument states "The downside of higher population is having to complete with other players on quests -it takes a longer." and your counter argument is essentially "Well it gets done eventually doesn't it?" The problem isn't whether it gets done, but the amount of time and frustration it takes, so you don't even address the argument. Your later sentences further point out the downsides to a larger population (with our current quests). This paragraph doesn't really prove your case that Lheann's argument was "silly".
    The difference isn't really that quests take longer. It's that it is possible to perform the quests when there's population. This means they actually take less time, since a long time is shorter than eternity. Of course this only applies to people who can't solo quests and don't get carried over the content by helpers, but more on that below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Ahh, a suggestion to change the mechanics of quests. Good idea, theres currently a thread by Kiwifruits about this. So far you have failed to disprove (and tbh have only made a case for) why increased population would make gameplay worse. Calling someone insane for thinking so is not an argument. You wrap this all up by stating another problem that could occur with higher population. Next time at least bring up the point on how an increased population would allow there to be more leveling teams.
    You have made one argument why lower population is better - less waiting for quest mob spawns. Also, you have acknowledged it's not insurmountable. Furthermore, if pointing out the obvious is required - such as there being more leveling teams if there's more people - I would like to state for the record, that if there's a low amount of people there's a low amount of leveling teams, and a low amount of PvP opponents, and a low amount of immersion of being in a living world. Oh, and a marketplace where there's a low amount of goods too, a look at Offers on Rimor tells a story by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    Its more like "Imagine if you couldn't do a quest because 10-15 people are farming the parts you need and KSing you". To some people, this is the less desirable side of an MMO. There are definitely bad sides to having a high population. Next time, try arguing that the good outweighs the bad rather than "You're an idiot, what you think is bad isn't really bad"
    I thought it was silly to imagine a MMO would be better off with fewer, rather than more, people. It always made perfect sense to imagine that a lively world, where you can encounter random people in the middle of The Longest Road made more sense than a world where one is truly baffled to see anyone outside of the hotspots scattered here and there.

    If there really is a valid reason why someone likes a MMO to have a low population, I would like to hear it. I do not consider quest related frustrations to be a valid issue, since quests can be changed, and in my opinion a much greater obstacle to finishing quests in AO is lack of teammates rather than having to wait for your turn. I am uncertain as to how AO population has changed in the recent times, but even years ago doing outdoor quests such as Inferno quest line, Adonis quest line or even some Holes in the Wall quests had one thing in common: If you couldn't solo them, and couldn't dual log an alt, or get some 220s from your org to help you out, you had to wait for hours or more on LFT to find someone to actually do the content with. Moreover, the lack of teammates for quests - the more obsqure quests, the less likely they were available - resulted in people often having to resort to the first option, being /afk /follow on a highbie, being carried over the content as opposed to having any meaningful contribution. This prevented enjoyment of content via gameplay, and only helped achieve the goal of loot/xp.

    Hours spent waiting, wishing, and often not finding a teammate/team for some quest content, or raid content, have much eclipsed any amount of time I have spent waiting for quest mobs to spawn. I suppose you must be extremely lucky, or networked, if you have experienced the opposite.

    More competition over certain farming content is one issue that I count as valid, but it is rather natural and even inevitable that it will occur in AO's environment. Monopolization of certain goods (RK uniques should be a great example, as well as iPande) has been counteracted by the devs, dwindling population probably has automatically handled a lot of others. But the devs have a track record in aiding this, so even though it is a valid issue it is not one that can be overcome. Finally, camping mobs for loot is more related to greed, but I see you didn't list it as one of the downsides so I am somewhat confident you will agree.

    I would rather play a game in which team-based content exists, where it would be possible to find a team for most content without having an extensive network of people, and it would not be required to be a love profession and/or dual/triple logged in order to participate. With more players come more potential teammates, though it doesn't address the "love profession" issue except maybe partially via there being more teams happening, so your same 1% chance of getting a team was multiplied by the amount of teams that are happening.

    Besides personal greed over farming spots and/or existing wealth somehow being reduced in value, the only reason I can think someone would like a lower population over a higher one on any given server is the Amiga effect of the late '90s/early 00s: Being part of a small community makes one feel good, and though one praises how good it is, the members don't really want more people to join since they'll be less unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuegen View Post
    The problems with a server merge aren't limited to the actual merge. What if X happened? What if X was a reasonable scenario, are the consequences worth going through? Its worth considering the potential problems with opening another server (as there are some), and whether dealing with these problems is worth merging the servers. I don't know if population will increase, but neither do you. So don't act like you do.
    When considering a potential merge, one assertion that can be made is that
    Code:
    (X+Y) > X
    (X+Y) > Y
    where X and Y are over 0.

    What you can't say is how many will leave if there's a merge, and how many will come back. What can be said with confidence is that one server would initially have more players than two separated ones have individually, unless you consider over 50% of people would instantly quit due to a merge happening. Assuming the population is somewhat evenly distributed on both servers.
    Last edited by eroz_c; Feb 6th, 2012 at 19:20:09.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

  3. #163
    I think it's a fallacy that server merge will fix much of anything. Everyone will still be subjected to the same state of the game. The only difference is that their is more of them in the same place subjected to it./ Does anyone really thing that merging will get MP's PUG's for quests and that it will fix how many people there are on LFT? It think that's hopeful thinking.

    A merge will just amplify the need for more docs, crats and enfos. If you arent' that, little will change for you.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    I think it's a fallacy that server merge will fix much of anything. Everyone will still be subjected to the same state of the game. The only difference is that their is more of them in the same place subjected to it./ Does anyone really thing that merging will get MP's PUG's for quests and that it will fix how many people there are on LFT? It think that's hopeful thinking.

    A merge will just amplify the need for more docs, crats and enfos. If you arent' that, little will change for you.
    The problem there really isn't the game, that's player mentality...
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  5. #165
    That just makes the problem worse ... FC doesn't control player mentality so the point is still relevant.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    FC doesn't control player mentality so the point is still relevant.
    Yea, but then if they buff MPs to be the best of all professions, MPs will just solo and not join teams so it'll be no different!
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  7. #167
    Sure, but that's just an active imagination talking there. The problem isn't low populations. The problem is that some classes just aren't useful so the population of people that can get things done is a subset of the total. Is it more useful to double up on the number of useless characters on a single server or is it better to make that population that is left more capable of doing content without relying on a handful of other classes?
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    I think it's a fallacy that server merge will fix much of anything. Everyone will still be subjected to the same state of the game. The only difference is that their is more of them in the same place subjected to it./ Does anyone really thing that merging will get MP's PUG's for quests and that it will fix how many people there are on LFT? It think that's hopeful thinking.

    A merge will just amplify the need for more docs, crats and enfos. If you arent' that, little will change for you.
    It's still more people you could convince to help you, or more people who could be in your org, assuming you join one (your reasoning seems to exclude orgs from the picture, as if PUG is the only way to play), who could help you. I think people should take their little orgs and merge with bigger ones, but they just don't do it, probably due to personality conflicts or something, so providing more people is the only way to help.

    EDIT: And MP's aren't useless. CI plx. Mezz plx. Heal plx. Player mentality IS a problem, though I don't know that I'd call it THE problem; some people are just douchenozzles, because they'll use an MP's services and then not help them. "You don't have to be IN the team to give me what *I* want, so I'll get it and then dismiss you."

    Orgmate of mine, the other day, was kicked from a team for not having a Riwen, when he just couldn't cast it yet. SOOOO... the player mindset problem ACTUALLY IS the mindset of VETERANS POWERLEVELING instead of trying to have fun.
    Last edited by vitriolic-v; Feb 6th, 2012 at 23:22:17.

  9. #169
    Having a bigger pool of people to 'convince' to help you is not a solution to the problem of what classes offer for teaming, ever. As long as the the relative populations of professions doesn't change, the same problem exists.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  10. #170
    The problem is docs, enfs and solds and crats being WTF OP'd in PVM.

    In every other MMO on the planet, tank professions aren't DPS at the same time.

    In every other MMO, CC profs aren't the second best DPS.

    In every other MMO, doctors don't have such OP'd heals that they can spam DPS all day and pop one heal every 3 minutes.

    In every other MMO the capability of 3 profs to mitigate about 98% of damage coming from a boss mob is entirely unprecedented.

    You know what the problem is? AO's mechanics, and the dev's problem for overlooking them for so damn long.

    Crats, solds, and enfs can mitigate so much damage that with those 3 and a healer, every single instance where there is no race against a rage timer is done in leisurely fashion.

    You want to get MP's, shades, MA's, traders, whoever else a team? Add a rage timer and add some AI. Bosses in AO are the about the worst designed mobs I've ever seen.

    Making a trader useful:
    base attack skill on MA skill and AAO
    Making a MP useful:
    make nukes powerful enough to knock off 10k HP per shot.
    making an engineer useful:
    Make mobs have very hard hitting specials.
    making a keeper useful:
    give more mobs fear.

    But, you'll need to get more people into the game if you do this because on the average night I log in, I can only find about 1-2 other people, with maybe 2 people on LFT. If you make mobs tougher without the people around to be able to complete the content, you'll just drive AO further into the ground.

    biggest mistakes so far?????

    1. instanced pande
    2. bounty removal from S10
    3. announcing rebalance 5 years before it happens. stupid, just stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarsolace
    This idea kills 2 forum trolls with one hamster.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdog View Post
    biggest mistakes so far?????

    1. instanced pande
    2. bounty removal from S10
    3. announcing rebalance 5 years before it happens. stupid, just stupid.
    NUFF SAID !

    Maybe now with the new game director all you AO employees will get to work and at least merge RK1 and RK2 like u did with german server because he had few players left. If you keep it like this you well be forced to merge RK1 and RK2 because of lack of players. And since new engine ain't coming YET chance of peoples coming back is around 0 or you just don't want new peoples ?
    You're waiting for 24 december 2012 to see what happends ? )

  12. #172
    server merge isnt the sollution we need. it just postpones the inevitable. it doesnt fix whats making people leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdog View Post
    The problem is docs, enfs and solds and crats being WTF OP'd in PVM.

    In every other MMO on the planet, tank professions aren't DPS at the same time.

    In every other MMO, CC profs aren't the second best DPS.

    In every other MMO, doctors don't have such OP'd heals that they can spam DPS all day and pop one heal every 3 minutes.

    In every other MMO the capability of 3 profs to mitigate about 98% of damage coming from a boss mob is entirely unprecedented.

    You know what the problem is? AO's mechanics, and the dev's problem for overlooking them for so damn long.
    docs arent all that powerfull in PVM without crat debuffs.
    healing 220 enf on mitaar leaves little to none room for slacking..
    we had the enf log his lvl 210 AMS for test and it went much easier.
    vort is much easier though, because of sless..

    i also have some opinions about engis and crats being designed by FC to do more DD than shades..
    but thats not all that much game breaking even if I HATE IT!¤!¤# !
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Decent post.
    I really hope if you do take server merge seriously that you involve the community properly and don't shaft people. My opinion, make every city instanced with ability to buy directly from GMS, and remove them from RK, and add more tower fields to the mix.
    Only way I see it happening also. Would be for the best, this game had some really amazing atmosphere in the more remote zones, and all of that was ruined when no matter where you went, you saw 1-2 cities in the background, and all with warps ready to take you to any Night Club.
    Krause Equip

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    Quote Originally Posted by Means View Post
    This is going to get done if it kills me or preferably someone else.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotdog View Post
    The problem is docs, enfs and solds and crats being WTF OP'd in PVM.

    1. In every other MMO on the planet, tank professions aren't DPS at the same time.

    2. In every other MMO, CC profs aren't the second best DPS.

    3. In every other MMO, doctors don't have such OP'd heals that they can spam DPS all day and pop one heal every 3 minutes.

    4. In every other MMO the capability of 3 profs to mitigate about 98% of damage coming from a boss mob is entirely unprecedented.
    1. What planet do you live on?

    2. Wrong, some games they deal damage with their CC, the more targets the

    more DD.

    3. That part i agree.

    4. Immune, Immune, Immune. Shall i say more?

    I have the distinct feeling you did not play a lot of other MMO's.

    Feel free to ask for examples to back up my statements.
    Neophyte Nerf"Shareida"Batted First Order
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    it's written in the bible.
    Matthew 23:13 "and the trader hath casteth bulk trader at the young age of 14. and it was good. and so he hath an extra 260 comp lit and he hath equippeth better ncu's. and it was good too.
    A Producer's point of view

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    1. What planet do you live on?

    2. Wrong, some games they deal damage with their CC, the more targets the

    more DD.

    3. That part i agree.

    4. Immune, Immune, Immune. Shall i say more?

    I have the distinct feeling you did not play a lot of other MMO's.

    Feel free to ask for examples to back up my statements.
    i dont know any MMOs where tank is DD, or what that immune immune immune thing means

    i disagree with the doc part, docs arent OP, crat debuffs are. (iCH is OP though.. i dont use it if i can manage without which i do 99% of times)

    and how in other games CC is damaging ability? wont that be a tad overpowered, damage without mob having a chance at you? :P
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Shareida View Post
    1. What planet do you live on?

    2. Wrong, some games they deal damage with their CC, the more targets the

    more DD.

    3. That part i agree.

    4. Immune, Immune, Immune. Shall i say more?

    I have the distinct feeling you did not play a lot of other MMO's.

    Feel free to ask for examples to back up my statements.

    I take it your main is enf and your alt is crat, and you keep getting beat by doctors?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarsolace
    This idea kills 2 forum trolls with one hamster.

  17. #177

    Smile

    With all this dickering I bet Lindelu is wondering what she got herself in to. The good thing though is only a small amount of subscribers actually comment on this forum, thinking that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. If this much complaining went on in the game we would be driving any new people away with the complaining. Let's just keep it in house and hope they don't check this thread. At any rate I hope AO keeps going for another 10 years, I'll be with them still, good Lord willing and the creek don't rise.

  18. #178
    There's been more action on the forums than in game for a long time now

    Towers? yah right.

    Better to break down a few ego towers... takes omni way longer to rebuild them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarsolace
    This idea kills 2 forum trolls with one hamster.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by eroz_c View Post
    You have made one argument why lower population is better - less waiting for quest mob spawns. Also, you have acknowledged it's not insurmountable. Furthermore, if pointing out the obvious is required - such as there being more leveling teams if there's more people - I would like to state for the record, that if there's a low amount of people there's a low amount of leveling teams, and a low amount of PvP opponents, and a low amount of immersion of being in a living world. Oh, and a marketplace where there's a low amount of goods too, a look at Offers on Rimor tells a story by itself.
    Don't forget an almost empty LFT list where you only use it to team people you already know over long distances.
    SmokeX 210/23 Neutral Opifex MA General of Spirit Walkers
    SmokeKillsU 81/3 Neutral Opifex Agent
    UraniumX 101/2 Neutral Nanomage NT
    BruteForceX 61 Neutral Opifex Fixer
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    SixOfNynex 42/2 Neutral Nanomage Engineer
    Jiroieyoshi 12/2 Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    EMHMarkX 32/2 Neutral Nanomage Doctor

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by smokex View Post
    Don't forget an almost empty LFT list where you only use it to team people you already know over long distances.
    Top it off with the fact that you're from RK1, which shows 3x the action of RK2 judging by offers forum activity, tells a story about how bad some people just want to play with themselves when they say low population is not necessarily a bad thing.

    Of course if the above metrics have any bearing, 33% addition to RK1 current population would not be huge, from RK2 viewpoint it would be noticeable, but the bottom line is other attraction and retention methods of people are needed.
    Eroz, finally 220/26/70 Adventurer & proud General of Regulators on ex-RK2 (outdated) equip
    Rokroland, 170 Engineer No more crab for j00 Northern Front on ex-RK2
    Ranged roxxorz!
    Sig last updated properly when West Athens still had people sitting about the subway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Siahanor View Post
    Complaining about the realism of height changing mechanics in a game that has people who can channel their anger to make huge killer meatballs.

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