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Thread: Balance: AO vs any other game

  1. #1

    Balance: AO vs any other game

    So I've been playing star wars.

    It's been great. What I think is really interesting is how in every warzone, you're basically forced to fight. It's non-negotiable, really. You sign up for a warzone, and 2 minutes in and within LOS theres at least 4-5 team mates and between 4 and 8 opposition.

    It means at any given time, in a PVP scenario, there are between 1-8 targets for you to attack, and, potentially you may be under focussed fire from between 2 -4 people.

    It is extremely rare that you're under fire from more than 4 people, unless you run into a group of 4+ people solo and a node is already capped or whatever.

    The point is, PVP is so obviously a numbers game, and, there is ever so rarely a 1 on 1 opportunity. (there are 1 on 1 opportunities, but you have to gout of your way to find them, and rarely will your fight continue for long without someone jumping in).

    What does this mean? It means that Balance between individuals doesn't matter.

    (It does matter, but it matters FAR less than overall balance, for example, between factions - but faction balance is very nicely balanced because there is only rarely a shortage of players for a warzone, so, at worst you'll be 8 on 6 or 8 on 7 instead of 8 on 8, but, like I said, it's rare that the last spot won't be filled).

    Therefore, overall individual balance is surpassed by the overall balance of factional strength, the number of skilled players who play for each faction, and ultimately, and most importantly, the number of skilled players working together in a warzone venue.

    Other hugely important factors in this type of balance (and gameplay):
    * Funneling people to concentration points (resulting in mass PVP not 1 on 1),
    * Balanced teams in terms of numbers,
    * Equally attainable strength not based on gear IE, LEVEL>>>>>GEAR+equaliser buff
    * Individual abilities far less important than playing your class to it's designed purpose (spamming attacks as a healer tank<<<<<tanking/guarding/healing)
    * Rewards each class role for it's designed strength (rewards for tanking/gaurding, rewards for healing)

    The result is that a well balanced team with healers, tanks, DPS, CC's and good communication and good utilisation of their class will vastly outperform a group of non-cohesive, non-communicating flavour of the monthers.

    And this is a hugely important factor in developing a solid base of players: let the people figure out that flavour of the month is LESS important than communication and playing advanced classes to their design spec.

    Balance, in this game, is achieved through enlightenment of the player base over time as they come to realise their design spec, their ability to play their designed spec more efficiently, and through communication with their teammates.

    Balance, in terms of individual encounters, is something that is so rarely encountered, that the actual playerbase response to INDIVIDUAL strength/weakness, is almost unseen.

    How AO could learn from this?

    1. Change mass PVP to focus/funnel opposing sides to specific objectives (Battlestation has too many nodes, too many pathways, too many options, and not enough people, and potentially has FAR too many instances (should be one or two instances max with a buff to include all levels into 2 instances)

    2. change the focus of PVP in AO to mass PVP not individual encounters (hard not to see that it is this way when there are only 4 people logged into the server)

    3. remove 100% to hit attacks that bypass critical aspects of defence

    4. remove /assist <-- this is critical.

    Thats it, but, number 1 is obviously a massive issue. Not having anyone to PVP with is the death knell of a game.

  2. #2
    I prefer to play solo.
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  3. #3
    I would like PvP opt-out check box in my F10 preferences.
    Froobalicious General of Barador Arin.

    -- Playing AO for six years, still a nuub gimp, and proud of it!

  4. #4
    Unless FC decides to actually invest some real money and manpower into AO (no offense to the team that exists now, but face it, they're a skeleton crew) it will never be anything but a slow-death vortex that sucks in the money of desperate vets and clueless newbies.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  5. #5

    i need NO pvp

    Quote Originally Posted by Lliers View Post
    I would like PvP opt-out check box in my F10 preferences.
    me too

  6. #6
    I like your idea, its just in a game that has such a population problem is redoing everything to revolve around Mass PVP that never happens a good idea ? Personally I love mass pvp.

  7. #7
    I wouldn't complain about a refocus that encourages players into the mass PvP mindset. For 1 vs 1 there's already /duels...
    :E

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lliers View Post
    I would like PvP opt-out check box in my F10 preferences.
    This! --^

    If:
    1. You have to relog to make "stick" the state. Otherwise ppl would tick/untick and abuse;

    2. You can't do/acquire/complete missions that would flag you. I'm thinking about that Clan daily where you have to graffiti at Foremans;

    3. You can't interact with others that are flagged (trade, buff, heals, aura effects, w/e I forgot and is sensible) or acquire from them a flag, pets refuses to obey if the result would be flagging;

    4. You can't grid to tower fields (but you can use that item that lets you warp into the grid from a controller);

    5. When you get attacked by or attack City Guards/Bartenders/Unicorns/NPC in city from opposing faction, including Guards in Tir that shoots Neutrals too, THEN you get a flag and you can't change state in Preferences (which is changed to Opt-In) for as long as the flag is to normally last.

    I forgot some and some of this is unreasonnable I'm sure.

  9. #9
    pvm cupcakes have no say about balance.

  10. #10
    Comparing AO to other games is WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
    Because Race Yalm

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahndra-Corvid View Post
    I wouldn't complain about a refocus that encourages players into the mass PvP mindset. For 1 vs 1 there's already /duels...
    Exactly.

    And this is the big beef I and others have with Battlestation.

    BS at the best of times was bit of a 3 on 3 or 4 on 3 while trying to get down a corridor... but it seemed to be quite rare even to get a good fight at a node.

    I'm not 100% sure why, but I think it has something to do with the ratio of time spent in TRANSIT, vs the time spent capping a node.

    The problem actually compounds when there are no obvious single routes to and from a node. Consider core: there are at least 9 different routes you could take to get from one of the three transporters to get INTO the core area, add to that the possibility of not using a transporter (not possible anymore) and the total number of routes jumps to 27. 27 different routes is FAR too many.

    Ideally, the layout would have funnelled people into an area via one of two channels, which, when pushed hard, would have allowed people to retreat to one of 2 or 3 secondary nodes. Again, the secondary node could be pushed back again by an attacking force which would have landed the retreating force back at the core node.

    But, it never worked out that way, there is just too much room to fight at core, and any retreating force from any of the nodes would have to retreat for a flat out run for 45 seconds at end game just to GET to the next node.


    To fix this massive proportioning issue is critical.

    Clearly runspeed is a hugely contributing factor to making BS the right size.

    To this end, I have two suggestions:

    1. make in combat runspeed HALF of what it normally is.
    2. make out of combat runspeed 2500 for all profs at all levels.
    3. make combat mode force stop once someone goes gray to you (distance check fail)

    Then shrink BS.

    Why? Because, lowering runspeed during combat reduces the synch, is realistic, especially if you consider someone trying to attack/swing a hammer/shoot at someone - impossible to do at a full gallop, but, possible to do at a moderate jog.

    This will also make real movement between nodes an obviously non-trivial affair: a team defending a node (LOL a team in BS, I rarely see 1 other person) should be able to offset a snare or root by targetting an attacker and thereby slowing them from reaching the target.

    But, with nodes much closer together (FC, remove the transporters) the distance to travel will be much less and you could likely cover the entire distance in 15 seconds if not impeded by roots/snares/combat.

    Other benefits to this: no more kiting hecklers. 99% less complaints about synch.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MajorOutage View Post
    Comparing AO to other games is WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
    AO does not exist in a vacuum.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  13. #13
    Remove Controlpoints from Battlestation

    why should I fight when I need to capture flags to win

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Togusa View Post
    why should I fight when I need to capture flags to win
    because enemy players are preventing your capture attempts?

    atleast on ideological level thats what is supposed to happen, but most hardcore players are on core QQing when badly geared pvmers win the round.

    4-capping isnt sign of noobines. 0-capping is!
    Last edited by Otansaanpas; Mar 22nd, 2012 at 10:33:37.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  15. #15
    Some elements of AO PvP have massive potential.

    How many game forums do you read saying "world PvP is dead" and look at WoW desperately trying to find ways to make people PvP in an open world environment. AO has arguably the most desirable rewards I've ever seen in a game for world PvP, literally game changing rewards (says the trox doc looking at his alpha symbs).

    I've had some fantastic PvP battles at TL7 towers (although assist is a PITA, especially for us poor red glowing docs). I have to think on my feet far more quickly at towers than I ever did say in warsong gulch on a disc priest.

    The problem with AO is lack of tiered rewards. People farm something and it's done, ad perpetuum. Yes some people PvP for the pure pleasure, but if ofab had the equivalent of Arena Seasons for example, so you had to keep PvP'ing to keep rewards up to date then I think a lot more people would participate more regularly. In games like ToR and WoW the numbers aren't drawn purely from the 'PvP for the love of it' group, but from a lot of players that want to farm rewards as well, which increases the demographic it appeals to.

    You could apply this to PvE too. If loot tables constantly got updated, if you could only have the best gear for a snapshot in time instead of an hour after you hit 220 then there would be reason for people to keep taking their mains off to do more than farm for alts. Combined armour was just a bugnuts crazy implementation.

    If you want to keep participation in any aspect of the game high, you need to offer rewards, and rewards which scale over time to encourage sustainability.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Grumpy "Siorai" Oldgit - 220.25 Clan Atrox Doctor - Screenshot - Equip (old)

    First trox doc on RK1 using Blades of Boltar.

    My Spirit Shroud Hell - Over 1400 kills with no drop.
    ------------------------------------------------------------

  16. #16
    If you use AOE in AO it hits one person if youre lucky.

    You also might get agg from a unicorn.

    In starwars, you use a 5m AOE it hits 5 people, 3 if you have bad aim.

    Difference is so obvious it hurts.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by drainbamage View Post
    AO does not exist in a vacuum.
    We can approximate it as an offline RPG in a vacuum to first order, though!


    On topic: I like to play solo in pvp. Zergmuffins are the root of all evil.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Siorai2 View Post
    Some elements of AO PvP have massive potential.

    How many game forums do you read saying "world PvP is dead" and look at WoW desperately trying to find ways to make people PvP in an open world environment. AO has arguably the most desirable rewards I've ever seen in a game for world PvP, literally game changing rewards (says the trox doc looking at his alpha symbs).

    I've had some fantastic PvP battles at TL7 towers (although assist is a PITA, especially for us poor red glowing docs). I have to think on my feet far more quickly at towers than I ever did say in warsong gulch on a disc priest.

    The problem with AO is lack of tiered rewards. People farm something and it's done, ad perpetuum. Yes some people PvP for the pure pleasure, but if ofab had the equivalent of Arena Seasons for example, so you had to keep PvP'ing to keep rewards up to date then I think a lot more people would participate more regularly. In games like ToR and WoW the numbers aren't drawn purely from the 'PvP for the love of it' group, but from a lot of players that want to farm rewards as well, which increases the demographic it appeals to.

    You could apply this to PvE too. If loot tables constantly got updated, if you could only have the best gear for a snapshot in time instead of an hour after you hit 220 then there would be reason for people to keep taking their mains off to do more than farm for alts. Combined armour was just a bugnuts crazy implementation.

    If you want to keep participation in any aspect of the game high, you need to offer rewards, and rewards which scale over time to encourage sustainability.
    Bump
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    If you use AOE in AO it hits one person if youre lucky.

    You also might get agg from a unicorn.

    In starwars, you use a 5m AOE it hits 5 people, 3 if you have bad aim.

    Difference is so obvious it hurts.
    Yes but in SW:TOR the damage of an AOE is equivalent to throwing feathers at someone, the sole exception being Chain Lightning but that's getting nerfed in 1.2 (no longer benefits from Wrath proc).

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lliers View Post
    I would like PvP opt-out check box in my F10 preferences.
    Quote Originally Posted by Togusa View Post
    me too
    Me three.

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