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Thread: Teasing engine-teaser is teasing

  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Lheann View Post
    [...]beta ran on direct 6 [...] Microsoft also did not support Win98 with the first release of DX7 it was not till they released DX7.0a that windows 98 was officially supported.
    According to Wikipedia, DX 7.0a was released 8th March, 2000. That's over a year before the initial AO release; Which means Win98 supported DX7 before AO was launched.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lheann View Post
    I am calling BS on AO being DX7.
    If I read this correctly, hardware support for Transformation and Lightening is a DX7 feature. Last I checked, AO supported this. (HW T&L).
    See quote, bold&underlined text in particular:
    Since the GeForce256, graphic chips started to make part of the necessary calculations for the generation of three-dimensional objects, a task that was previously exclusive of the system processor. These stages are for transformation and lightning, abbreviated as T&L. DirectX 7 was launched to recognize this feature and to transfer the stages of transformation and lightning from the system processor to the graphics chip. DirectX 7 graphic chips include all GeForce 2, GeForce 4 MX, GeForce MX, GeForce PCX 4300, Radeon 7000, Radeon 7200, and Radeon 7500 series.
    tl;dr: AO is DX7. A dev(vhab) said so, and some quick research confirms it's the only reasonable explanation as AO supports features which were introduced with DX7.
    Last edited by Demoder; Mar 29th, 2012 at 00:56:12.
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  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    I don't have my original notum wars install cd anymore, but I do have my wall map, keyboard map and the Special Edition install cd's still ... plus the Shadowlands and Alien Invasion install cd's.

    However, I am not up on all the discussion above about DX6 and/or DX7, etc. How do we tell whether or not our PC/Graphics set-up can run this new DX9 mentioned in the interviews? Is it assumed that we can run DX9 if we are on a particular version of Windows? Or, is DX9 a function of our graphics card?

    Kinnik
    If you have a card post 2003, you're likely good to go as far as DX9 support ( whether the card and/or PC you have will be able to run the upgraded graphics is a whole other issue ). The first DX9 cards for Nvidia were the GeForce 5000 series. The first for ATI/AMD was the Radeon 9600 series. The first Intel graphics chipsets to support DX9 were the 910G, 915G and 915Gx released beginning in 2005.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    tl;dr: AO is DX7. A dev(vhab) said so, and some quick research confirms it's the only reasonable explanation as AO supports features which were introduced with DX7.
    I see all that. I am now at home and popped my release day "Stood in line at Game Store to buy" AO cd. I wanted to see what version of DX shipped with AO. Things of interest and things to consider.

    AO Version on the CD is 11.0
    Direct X Version 8.0 Installer
    Will run on Windows 95 - has FC help file on how to do it. But requirements on box say Win98 minimum. That is funny in itself.

    Interesting stuff. Vhab says it is DX7 then that is fine. But there were beta's right at DX7 releasing so I still suspect a good portion of the old engine is using a DX6 design that just happens to be compatible with DX7. And like all good teams they made use of as much of DX7 as possible in the year leading up to release. Now the question since it shipped with DX8 on the disc did any secret forgotten DX8 things make into the game as well?
    Lheann
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  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Phixalicious View Post
    If you have a card post 2003, you're likely good to go as far as DX9 support ( whether the card and/or PC you have will be able to run the upgraded graphics is a whole other issue ). The first DX9 cards for Nvidia were the GeForce 5000 series. The first for ATI/AMD was the Radeon 9600 series. The first Intel graphics chipsets to support DX9 were the 910G, 915G and 915Gx released beginning in 2005.
    Thanks

    I have a NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260, windows 7 and intel i7 ... don't remember how long I have had this pc, but it is definitely newer than 2003.

    Kinnik

  5. #165
    For all worrying if their computers can run it: The easiest way is to try out the engine, simple as that. Since Age of Conan is (kind of, but thats not the discussion here ) free to play and uses the same engine you can just take this as a reference. But note, that the system requirements for anarchy online with the new engine are likely to be less than for age of conan, since the graphic assets (or how you would ever call it) are much more advanced there.

    or try http://www.systemrequirementslab.com with age of conan if you like.
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  6. #166

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Malosar View Post
    This is what people need to realize, not expect ultra-modern bleeding edge dx9 rendering.
    They can expect bleeding edge DX9 RENDERING. What they can't expect to have art assets on par with a modern dx9 game. That's also the mistake so many game journalists make, when they talk about games and then they say "yeah the tech is really showing it's age", just because an engine has been around for a while, to show off their "knowledge". They even say that about engines, that have completely, rewritten, cutting edge renderers. (like they said it about the Aurora-Engine from Neverwinter Nights, when it was reused in The Witcher 1. Even though CD Projekt Red had completely rewritten the renderer from the ground up using modern technology. Aurora was just powering the game mechanics and parts of their toolset)

    The renderer of the Dreamworld Engine is cutting edge. It uses deferred lighting, knows how to render dynamic shadows up to the horizon, it utilizes many smart, modern technologies, does parallax-mapping, bumpmapping, fxaa, ssao, soft particles, godrays, specular mapping, it has a modern particle engine and so many more things.

    The "issue" here is that AO is a 10 year old game and even though our artists are doing their best to redo many of the more frequently used art assets (trees, stones, couple of textures, often used buildings etc..), they don't redo them to be up-to-par with a super, cutting edge modern game, where a characters face has more polygons, than a whole landscape in the old AO. It's not that they couldn't, but that most importantly, the new assets need to fit in with the old assets, the game still needs to look like a whole, not just a sum of independently awesome looking parts.

    So you can expect the most beautiful looking 10 year old game ever made, using cutting edge rendering technology in a great mixture of old and new art assets.

    Cheers,
    Waldgeist

  7. #167
    moin waldgeist,
    do you know how the usage of old tiles in comparison to the ones in AoC influence the performance? is it much faster to render the lower quality ao tiles, or is it little different, like say "the engine does not really care what it renders"?
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  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldgeist View Post
    The "issue" here is that AO is a 10 year old game and even though our artists are doing their best to redo many of the more frequently used art assets (trees, stones, couple of textures, often used buildings etc..), they don't redo them to be up-to-par with a super, cutting edge modern game, where a characters face has more polygons, than a whole landscape in the old AO. It's not that they couldn't, but that most importantly, the new assets need to fit in with the old assets, the game still needs to look like a whole, not just a sum of independently awesome looking parts.
    That would be pretty stupid, if this is only reason.
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  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldgeist View Post
    The "issue" here is that AO is a 10 year old game and even though our artists are doing their best to redo many of the more frequently used art assets (trees, stones, couple of textures, often used buildings etc..), they don't redo them to be up-to-par with a super, cutting edge modern game, where a characters face has more polygons, than a whole landscape in the old AO. It's not that they couldn't, but that most importantly, the new assets need to fit in with the old assets, the game still needs to look like a whole, not just a sum of independently awesome looking parts.
    EVE online is 9 years old game and it's still one of the best looking MMOs.

    So i really don't understand your logic here. If AO team decided to redo AO graphic why not do it properly? As it is now, AO will go from one of the worst looking MMOs to one of the worst looking MMOs but best looking 10 year old MMO...I dont see how that will bring more players to AO, "its nice for 10 year old game" thing wont sell the game, and frankly subscription fee same as all new better MMOs doesn't go in favor.
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  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    According to Wikipedia, DX 7.0a was released 8th March, 2000. That's over a year before the initial AO release; Which means Win98 supported DX7 before AO was launched.


    If I read this correctly, hardware support for Transformation and Lightening is a DX7 feature. Last I checked, AO supported this. (HW T&L).
    See quote, bold&underlined text in particular:

    tl;dr: AO is DX7. A dev(vhab) said so, and some quick research confirms it's the only reasonable explanation as AO supports features which were introduced with DX7.


    Add to this the fact that game devs have access to hardware and software many months before they are released. FC probably had the specs 12-18 months before DX7 released, and beta code 6 months before release.

  11. #171

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by MyGift View Post
    EVE online is 9 years old game and it's still one of the best looking MMOs.

    So i really don't understand your logic here. If AO team decided to redo AO graphic why not do it properly? As it is now, AO will go from one of the worst looking MMOs to one of the worst looking MMOs but best looking 10 year old MMO...I dont see how that will bring more players to AO, "its nice for 10 year old game" thing wont sell the game, and frankly subscription fee same as all new better MMOs doesn't go in favor.
    You've seen the new heads, a couple of the new objects. So you know, that we don't aim for World of Warcraft level. We are doing a proper remodelling, retexturing of old Anarchy Online assets.

    EvE is a whole different situation. They started with a different engine, than most MMOs back in the day, because they had to tackle a different scenario. Space simulation is much different, poses different challenges on to an engine, than any traditional world game. That's why very old space games still look awesome to this day. (check old games like the Wing Commander, X series etc..)

    Of course I don't know EvEs ressource list, but I would make a small guess, that AO has at least ten times the amount of assets EvE has, just for building the world.

    There are also a couple of other factors to consider. EVE updated their graphics constantly, moving to newer iterations of their engine (which from the start was way ahead of AO, that's the reason why it was never practical to bring the present AO engine up to speed) and they always had a very healthy, growing subscription base. Up to this day EVE can afford to keep a full production team working on improving the game and doing major graphical overhauls, that has the size of our TSW production team, because of their subscription numbers.

    Redoing every asset of the game, every model, every texture, every animation is the same as making Anarchy Online 2. This means it costs as much as a Triple A MMO. Anarchy Online, as awesome as it is, can't pay for that investment. So as much as we love our game, we can't just spend money, we don't have and will never earn. Funcom, as an independent developer, cannot risk investing that kind of money with the potential hope, that it will turn into a super success out of nowhere (which, given the history of MMOs is the chance of one in a million).

    So while it's understandable, that any fan would say "why don't you make it like a new game?", it's always important to have ones feet firmly planted on the ground when we talk about these kinds of things. We're already making a pretty HUGE investment with this new engine and the redoing of so many assets. This is already the biggest investment I've ever seen being made to such an old game in the history of MMOs (no the new 2D engine for UO doesn't count, it isn't comparable in effort).

    Cheers,
    Waldgeist

  12. #172

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Keex View Post
    moin waldgeist,
    do you know how the usage of old tiles in comparison to the ones in AoC influence the performance? is it much faster to render the lower quality ao tiles, or is it little different, like say "the engine does not really care what it renders"?
    It is much, much, much faster to render less polygons and lower resolution textures in Dreamworld, than it is to render high-res models with high-res textures and all the added maps and shader effects.

    So if you don't push Age of Conan/TSW texture resolutions and maps (because the main texture is only the first step of an array of memory eating monsters, that make up the final look of a surface), you don't have to pay for it in render time on the GPU/GPU-RAM

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Waldgeist View Post
    Of course I don't know EvEs ressource list, but I would make a small guess, that AO has at least ten times the amount of assets EvE has, just for building the world.
    I know that AO team is lot smaller with lot less resources then some games that are out now. But AO team is working on this engine for over 5 years now? Yes EVE got lot more resources and lot more man power but they made complete graphic makeover in few months.

    Can i ask how many more subscribers should AO get to make this huge engine investment profitable ?

    Cause somehow i got a feeling that ppl that didnt want to play AO 5 years ago cause of crappy graphic compared to the other games still wont play it now for the same reason ( i think that graphic gap is even bigger now )

    I would rly want to see AO servers full again with alot of ppl online to do stuff with and for me AO is/was/will be the best game ever made, but i doubt that's possible with options ppl have now when they decide to pay 15$ / month for MMO.
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  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by MyGift View Post
    I know that AO team is lot smaller with lot less resources then some games that are out now. But AO team is working on this engine for over 5 years now? Yes EVE got lot more resources and lot more man power but they made complete graphic makeover in few months.

    Can i ask how many more subscribers should AO get to make this huge engine investment profitable ?

    Cause somehow i got a feeling that ppl that didnt want to play AO 5 years ago cause of crappy graphic compared to the other games still wont play it now for the same reason ( i think that graphic gap is even bigger now )

    I would rly want to see AO servers full again with alot of ppl online to do stuff with and for me AO is/was/will be the best game ever made, but i doubt that's possible with options ppl have now when they decide to pay 15$ / month for MMO.
    They didn't do it in a few months updating all their resources took a lot longer than that and they're still not done with that.

    And their engine is probably designed in a manner that lets them update bits and pieces of it in an easy plug-in-plug-out manner. Where AO is made as one huge quick hack to get the damn thing running held together with spit and bubblegum. Optimized slightly over the years, but never ever meant to be swapped out for something else.
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  15. #175
    That was awesome, progress!
    OMNI-TEK

  16. #176
    Lol at comparing EVE with AO, what do you have to render when playing EVE?, a few ships, some asteroids and a space station with some light effects?

    Not only they have more resources and a modern engine, they have to do around ten times less work over what AO requires.

    A question i asked before but got lost in all the trolling.
    Are there any plans to allow community made High-res textures to be added in the future?

  17. #177

    Funcom employee

    Can the stop the flame-balling and rather discuss the topic at hand?

  18. #178

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by heilt-do View Post
    A question i asked before but got lost in all the trolling.
    Are there any plans to allow community made High-res textures to be added in the future?
    High-res textures made by the community already made its way in.
    You might remember the excellent work Sezmra did
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  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by heilt-do View Post
    Lol at comparing EVE with AO, what do you have to render when playing EVE?, a few ships, some asteroids and a space station with some light effects?

    Not only they have more resources and a modern engine, they have to do around ten times less work over what AO requires.

    A question i asked before but got lost in all the trolling.
    Are there any plans to allow community made High-res textures to be added in the future?
    I have to disagree to the EvE requirements. Ever played EvE in a fleet with say 100 ships fighting another 100 ships? Or 200, 300, 500? Each ship then has 5 drones out, shooting with laz0rs, gunz, missiles or those hybrids, being hit, explodes etc etc. Even on a good computer such huge fights can stress modern hardware. That's why a lot of those effects are shut off - simply to be able to actually play.
    So now show me where AO has ten times the objects and effects to be rendered? When running through crowded (ha ha) areas with huge actions (even more ha ha) - what makes that ten times of what happens in a fight in EvE.
    No, I am not an EvE-fanboi, I play EvE because it's completely different from any other MMO I know. I don't play it cuz of fancy graphics. I still love the graphics in AO and will be more than happy if it improves a bit. Sometimes it's nicer to have the smart a** of a solitus female or the hairy a** of a Trox in front of you instead of rusty Minmatar steel and duct-tape.

    KD
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  20. #180

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Krisdoc View Post
    I have to disagree to the EvE requirements. Ever played EvE in a fleet with say 100 ships fighting another 100 ships? Or 200, 300, 500? Each ship then has 5 drones out, shooting with laz0rs, gunz, missiles or those hybrids, being hit, explodes etc etc. Even on a good computer such huge fights can stress modern hardware. That's why a lot of those effects are shut off - simply to be able to actually play.
    So now show me where AO has ten times the objects and effects to be rendered? When running through crowded (ha ha) areas with huge actions (even more ha ha) - what makes that ten times of what happens in a fight in EvE.
    No, I am not an EvE-fanboi, I play EvE because it's completely different from any other MMO I know. I don't play it cuz of fancy graphics. I still love the graphics in AO and will be more than happy if it improves a bit. Sometimes it's nicer to have the smart a** of a solitus female or the hairy a** of a Trox in front of you instead of rusty Minmatar steel and duct-tape.

    KD
    It's not about which engine has the bigger e-peen, but about which game has more assets in total, needing more time to redo/overhaul/improve in any modernization attempt, because someone claimed that since the army of EvE developers overhauled their game, AO should've been able to do that too. Without a doubt EvEs engine was already great from the start, top-notch, bleeding-edge rendering technology and has only gotten better since then. That is something, that needs no discussing.

    Cheers,
    Waldgeist

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