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Thread: Randomness of loot tables.

  1. #1

    Randomness of loot tables.

    Moderators please close this thread!!!!!!!!!

    Edited by Anarrina:

    Just a moderator note here:

    Trolling for moderation is still trolling.

    If you start a thread and people are being genuinely rude, obnoxious, and offtopic, please report it, we'll handle it.

    If you start a thread and get upset because no one agrees with you, I'm sorry but you're going to have to take your lumps and lick your wounds like everyone else. Concede you're wrong or agree to disagree, whatever.

    This has happened a few times, so let me state for the record: If people are trying to force a moderator's hand and get rid of a thread by getting rid of the contents of all of your posts, what will happen is those posts will get removed, but unless the thread is complete trolling (in which case the whole thread will go), everything else will remain intact. Including those posts quoting parts of the edited/removed posts. If you don't mind your words possibly being taken out of context that way, have at it.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Apr 24th, 2012 at 03:44:34. Reason: Explanation of missing posts

  2. #2
    I was always fascinated with random numbers as silly as it may sound. I can tell you for sure that there is no way to produce real random numbers using functions provided by libraries of different programming languages. Those functions are based on seeding a number and apply some complex algorithms to it. So they aren't actually "random".
    For a number to be random you have to use a physical phenomena that doesn't take any input and has to pass other criteria like statistical ones: Outputing billions and billions of numbers without a pattern.
    Businesses pay heavy cash for random number generators, since they are very important for things like encryption or gamble software.

    tldr AO loot table isn't random

    edit: In case you are wondering what I mean by physical phenomena: Things like the variation of temperature, noise sounds, magnetic fluctuations etc. Only these things can generate random numbers.
    Last edited by Tessargi; Apr 20th, 2012 at 10:14:47.
    "The Tessargi Oppressor" 220/30 RK1 - P E

    Lazy: down with Tessargi The Oppressor! he is literally a Frankensteinian monster made from combining Gadaffi Sadam Hitler Stalin and George Bush into one powerhungry oppressor of the free world.

  3. #3
    I m not sure if the discussion is about AO random being True Random or Pseudo Random..

    What OP said is that he "feels" that stuff drops more after a server restart than the rest of the time.

    If that was true (with a BIF IF) it would probably come more from a drop chance not being random, but being random weighted by number of time stuff dropped already "this month" or period of time.
    // Break time //

    /\/\ Newcomers Alliance General and LMAA co-founder /\/\
    Froob for 3 years :
    Gridpain, Nfurter, Slayie, Forcedevente, Asafart, Theshrike, Whipingwillow, Malaucrane, Karmapolice.

    Sloob since 2009 :
    Coredumped,Needleworkr,Weepinwilljr,Gridpainjr,Bet amale,Lackwit,Dusttodust, Ouvreboite,Boohoohoo,Asafurt,Whatsthat,Aziraphale
    220, 220, 200, 164, 150, 116, 110, 82, 70, 57, 40, 21 ...

  4. #4
    I find this post very enjoyable It's amusing that you claim to see a pattern in something that's supposedly random, while that pattern seems completely unrelated to anything and grasped out of superstition and rumor. From what you say, it sounds like its perfectly random.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  5. #5
    Gonna need some actual evidence to back that claim up, OP
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  6. #6
    so, first few days after reset, people do more stuff for increased droprate and they do get more stuff than days when they do less of the same stuff?

    why didn't i think of that!
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    While computer programs are unable to generate random numbers, it is perfectly possible to generate random numbers with computer programs. All you need is a program that can generate a sequence of numbers and an external source that stops that counter without knowing where the counter is at that moment. IE a human interacting with the program at random.
    Well no. The program that generates the sequence will use an algorithm which means the final numbers won't be random no matter what kind of external source you use to stop.
    Maybe this will give you a better understanding Link

    You may think your method will generate random numbers, but it won't
    Last edited by Tessargi; Apr 21st, 2012 at 10:08:20.
    "The Tessargi Oppressor" 220/30 RK1 - P E

    Lazy: down with Tessargi The Oppressor! he is literally a Frankensteinian monster made from combining Gadaffi Sadam Hitler Stalin and George Bush into one powerhungry oppressor of the free world.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    Also, Masta you is dummy, the rumors and superstitions exist only in your head. How is an increased drop rate during a specific time period not related to anything? You used to be such a good troll...
    I'd like to see the many quotes on this being a "thing" then, if it's not just some superstition from people who imagine patterns in chaos. What's the trolling part? I said you're wrong. Is that trolling? Your post is way more trolling than mine. Prove otherwise with statistics; drops/kills, and do it scientifically, like you go do all these things 100 times each on the day just before server downtime and then just after restart, and once in the middle.
    Then we'll have some statistics to work from, rather than emperical "I saw it so it must be true".
    Last edited by Mastablasta; Apr 21st, 2012 at 11:02:32.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  9. #9
    then it's not the program / computer that generates random, it's the human being clicking on stop.
    // Break time //

    /\/\ Newcomers Alliance General and LMAA co-founder /\/\
    Froob for 3 years :
    Gridpain, Nfurter, Slayie, Forcedevente, Asafart, Theshrike, Whipingwillow, Malaucrane, Karmapolice.

    Sloob since 2009 :
    Coredumped,Needleworkr,Weepinwilljr,Gridpainjr,Bet amale,Lackwit,Dusttodust, Ouvreboite,Boohoohoo,Asafurt,Whatsthat,Aziraphale
    220, 220, 200, 164, 150, 116, 110, 82, 70, 57, 40, 21 ...

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    its not possible to generate random numbers with a computer program but it is possible to generate random numbers using a computer program.
    So, sky is blue but the sky is not blue. What? =)
    A statement can't really be false and positive at the same time.
    "The Tessargi Oppressor" 220/30 RK1 - P E

    Lazy: down with Tessargi The Oppressor! he is literally a Frankensteinian monster made from combining Gadaffi Sadam Hitler Stalin and George Bush into one powerhungry oppressor of the free world.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tessargi View Post
    So, sky is blue but the sky is not blue. What? =)
    A statement can't really be false and positive at the same time.
    Schrödinger's cat - just for giggles

    But - the one thing I would love to know about the algorithm that AO employs - is "time" or "time since last xxx" a part of the equation?
    Last edited by Utopian; Apr 21st, 2012 at 19:13:06.
    Utopia
    The continued search for an ideal community possessing a perfect socio-politico-legal system.

    “ The first thing a child should learn is how to endure. It is what he will have most need to know. ” — Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Schrödinger's cat - just for giggles
    I knew someone would point that out =)
    "The Tessargi Oppressor" 220/30 RK1 - P E

    Lazy: down with Tessargi The Oppressor! he is literally a Frankensteinian monster made from combining Gadaffi Sadam Hitler Stalin and George Bush into one powerhungry oppressor of the free world.

  13. #13
    curiosity killed the cat.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  14. #14
    Always blame the RNG.

    It's the reason you got critted.
    It's the reason you still don't have an ACDC.
    It's the reason GAIV is something you've never had in your posession.
    It's the reason you formerly camped for 12 hours to get dodja/alvin pads.

    If it would just cooperate and roll me nice numbers, I wouldn't be so mad at it.
    Screwed over for the last time.

    Go find a new game to play, this one no longer deserves respect.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    I made a post about something I noted along the years that might be important to be looked into by some developer. I made this post in the public forums because I thought that it might get some kind of useful feedback from other players. My incredibly stupid mistake.

    I request that a MODERATOR closes this thread and if possible deletes it completly. Thank you.
    Here's some useful feedback: provide some data, not just vague anecdotes. You really think the devs are going to waste time digging through AOs byzantine code based on nothing?
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    Lets see if I get this.

    If I post in the public forum a nice and complete list of which mobs to camp next time there is a server reset (funny how nobody seems to care about what I said about RK missions), my post will be very credible and everybody will have feedback and the devs will take it seriously and investigate those mobs and everything? Is that it?

    Because I will not do that. If the devs have any doubts they can PM me for details. If it is a generic problem (and it likely is because it involves several different bosses) then they dont need to check which boss is bugged but which part of the generic loot generation mechanism that may be broken. If they dont care or dont consider it a problem then lets move on, nothing to see here.

    Usefull feedback would be if people posted some of their own observations on the subject. If they notice something similar or related to it, or refuting it with diferent experiences. Posts schooling me about the "true" meaning of randomness, loling about how silly I am because I dont know nothing by people who dont even play the game anymore or demands of "give all details or we dont believe you" are not feedback.

    Mod where are thou?
    No, you should post rigorous testing results, not just killing one boss after a server up and saying "oh it dropped! I'm right."

    You looked for feedback on the subject, and complain you didn't get any? Far as I can tell you got lots of feedback all saying that noone else had noticed such a thing. If you can't do better than call those who give you feedback trolls or prove that there's anything behind your claim, then what good is this thread? But no, don't bother, I don't expect you'll answer that or anyone. If you can prove that you're right I think you should. If there is such an issue, it's serious. But derailing your own thread with talks about random generation, insults and so on, just doesn't get anything through.
    Last edited by Mastablasta; Apr 22nd, 2012 at 23:20:26.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  17. #17
    <Condensed>
    Masta, stop being an ass.

    As my contribution:
    Given the broken and/or exploitable mechanics that were and are in AO, I wouldn't be surprised if the droprates are borked. However, I doubt the devs will check it unless there's a ton of convincing data. The support line might be your best avenue.

    If it was related to server restart, reset seeds could run a high-drop sequence at the start. It should have been caught when they tested the algorithm though.
    IF they tested the algorithm
    Last edited by Sromp; Apr 23rd, 2012 at 08:33:30.

  18. #18
    OP is the only ass here.

    Calling people a troll, because your thread don't get instant recognition as the the unchallenged truth.
    Then wailing for a moderator when you get called out for poor reasoning.

    Hence why I found OP funny
    Darkempire 220/30/70 Agent
    {edited by Anarrina: see me if you have questions}
    When specifically asked for positive words, responding with a personal attack is incredibly rude and inappropriate. Please do not repeat such behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by nums214 View Post
    If my wife never got preggo omni wouldn't have lost their fields. 2009 is pretty much when I quit.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    Can you please point out the post where I claimed that something dropped after I killed one boss? I would be most grateful, thank you.
    If I post in the public forum a nice and complete list of which mobs to camp next time there is a server reset (funny how nobody seems to care about what I said about RK missions), my post will be very credible and everybody will have feedback and the devs will take it seriously and investigate those mobs and everything? Is that it?
    This, will result in exactly 1 kill. So you'll have to set up a bunch of people and manage them to kill these mobs. Time and time again, every day, over several months, so you can collect data and show a drop in number of drops/kill over a period leading from most drops/kill at fresh server boot and least drops/kill the moment before server downtime. Maybe this can explain why we have maintenance downtime!

    And why noone talks about RK missions is because it's the exact same .

    Quote Originally Posted by Sromp View Post
    <Condensed>
    Masta, stop being an ass.

    As my contribution:
    Given the broken and/or exploitable mechanics that were and are in AO, I wouldn't be surprised if the droprates are borked. However, I doubt the devs will check it unless there's a ton of convincing data. The support line might be your best avenue.

    If it was related to server restart, reset seeds could run a high-drop sequence at the start. It should have been caught when they tested the algorithm though.
    IF they tested the algorithm
    Asking for a proper factual debate is being an ass? Why, then maybe you shouldn't post here either with your attempt at being factual.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  20. #20
    "Being factual" and "asking for a factual debate" seem very different, then.
    I'm offering suggestions.
    You're mocking the guy.

    Long live the difference!

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