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Thread: Monthly Development Update: May 2012

  1. #141
    Kill blobb, kill lagg.

    gotcha!
    blah

  2. #142
    Whats the difference between AO and Star Wars: Galaxies? Euthanasia!

    /discuss

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Your trolling, hope you realize that. :P "It means exactly what i say."
    I know, but what you said doesn't actually make any sense. SQL is a language, that you use to interact with databases. BLOB is a class of datacontainer inside a database.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    I know, but what you said doesn't actually make any sense. SQL is a language, that you use to interact with databases. BLOB is a class of datacontainer inside a database.

    Lets assume your not trolling for a min:
    Where i say SQL vs Blobb i am talking about MSSQL 2008. SQL is not really a programming language its a script language.

    You don't say "to interact with database", this is usually under some terminology like t-sql and
    with blobb you have to read binary so not exactly the same. And Blobb is not a class, your far away here. You can use it as a object thought.
    Blob is a collection of binary data stored as a single entity for DMS.

    The point was, just to make it simple for simple minds = Using standard SQL server instead
    of binary blobb, there is no BIG performance lose. Mkey?

    Issues for using blobb:
    Users are not free to improve the software and distribute modified versions.
    Blobs are unportable and typically limited to a few hardware architectures.
    The correctness of the driver code cannot be checked.
    The code cannot be audited for security by users or third parties.
    Users are forced to trust vendors not to put backdoors and spyware into the blob.
    In case of bugs or vulnerabilities, the driver cannot be repaired by operating system developers.
    The hardware vendor can decide not to support some operating systems, or to abandon driver maintenance at any time.


    Now you guys can continue trolling have fun..
    Last edited by Ironmax; Jun 5th, 2012 at 16:17:04.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Lets assume your not trolling for a min:
    Where i say SQL vs Blobb i am talking about MSSQL 2008. SQL is not really a programming language its a script language.

    You don't say "to interact with database", this is wrong terminology. Its called t-sql and
    with blobb you have to read binary so not exactly the same. And Blobb is not a class, your far away here.
    Blob is a collection of binary data stored as a single entity..

    The point was, just to make it simple for simple minds = Using standard SQL server instead
    of binary blobb, there is no performance lose. Mkey?

    Now you guys can continue trolling have fun..
    I'll regret responding to such an obvious flamebait... but here goes.
    SQL means "structured query language", so it is per se not a scripting language, but a query language; and in this context, it's used to query a database. Masta just said "language" though, which fits the bill perfectly.

    I've never heard of this "BLOBB" you're referring to, but I know that "BLOB" is often referred to as "Binary Large Object"[S] or sometimes "Binary Long Object". You're right that BLOB is the name of a field type in most databases; And these fields store an arbitary amount of binary data, which the database does not necessarily know how to interact with. Whatever is accessing those fields is expected to know what to do with it, though.

    Since this is not a SQL-oriented forum, layman terms is perfectly acceptable. Further, "t-sql" is short for "Transactional SQL" - that is, a transaction query. T-SQL is short for an extension to SQL, implemented by some database engines. You can read more about it here.
    Transactions are awesome, but they're not mandatory. This extension does not seem to be implemented in most database engines. Therefore, it's blatantly wrong to say that all interactions with a SQL database are called "t-sql".

    As for performance characteristics of blob versus non-blob data... It depends entirely on how things are done. Only someone with knowledge about the specific implementation would be able to tell which provides better performance. And on this topic, I'll trust the words of a dev working on the project in question more than the words of a random persons unnamed "professional" friend. Especially with the aforementioned fresh in mind.

    Edit: corrected a mistake relating to t-sql. Point still stands, though.
    Last edited by Demoder; Jun 5th, 2012 at 13:12:40.
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  6. #146
    Everything Demoder said. If people are going to troll, troll with some google searches first.
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  7. #147

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    And as Vhab pointed, if they can clean up the blobb, this might sort out lagg issue.
    Okay, I'll clarify this.
    I have not stated, nor implied that 'the blob' is related to lag.

    In fact, I've stated using the blob lead to fairly high performance that so far has justified its continued existence.
    The main reason for moving some data out of the blob is to open up some new technical opportunities, not because of performance.

    I hope that clears up any confusion in the last few posts.
    Last edited by Vhab; Jun 5th, 2012 at 12:53:50.
    My posts are my own and do not reflect the views of my current nor former employers/clients

    Remco "Vhab" van Oosterhout
    Former Anarchy Online Game Programmer


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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post
    Transactions are awesome, but they're not mandatory. Therefore, it's blatantly wrong to say that all interactions with a SQL database are called "t-sql".
    .
    You probably don't know the terminology "blobbing" hens the use of blobb (moving chunks of large data data). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_large_object
    Maybe read your own wiki links?

    Lol t-sql is not mandatory ? ok thats all i am going to say about that.

    If SQL is a programming language , then html is a programming language to. And i am Elivs priestly. Wiki might call SQL programming language but when we talk about a programming language we talking about a huge language, not some simple communication script, even so t-sql can be huge and advanced made.
    I am sure your one of does who call php programming language to right?

    t-sql is not only for querying your talking like your copying directly from wiki without comprehending.
    Last edited by Ironmax; Jun 5th, 2012 at 13:09:57.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhab View Post
    Okay, I'll clarify this.
    I have not stated, nor implied that 'the blob' is related to lag.

    In fact, I've stated using the blob lead to fairly high performance that so far has justified its continued existence.
    The main reason for moving some data out of the blob is to open up some new technical opportunities, not because of performance.

    I hope that clears up any confusion in the last few posts.
    OK gotcha there, i never seen all the AO blob content, so you know better than me whats inside there, but if you have large binery data in there (like image). I am sure you agree thats not good for the performance.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Demoder View Post

    As for performance characteristics of blob versus non-blob data... It depends entirely on how things are done. Only someone with knowledge about the specific implementation would be able to tell which provides better performance.

    And on this topic, I'll trust the words of a dev working on the project in question more than the words of a random persons unnamed "professional" friend. Especially with the aforementioned fresh in mind.

    .
    I think you miss read my post Demoder: The point was not that none blob db is
    slower than with blob binary. There where other reasons to not use blob, plz read my thread again for correct reasoning.

    Neither have i questioned any dev skils, i pointed out some basic things about blob.
    My partner is a very well professional he made some of the big map search engine inn Norway,
    dont want to use his name for protection. But i can tell you he worked with database as longs as i can remember, way before AO came out.
    Last edited by Ironmax; Jun 5th, 2012 at 13:56:10.

  11. #151
    Kinda fun to see ppl trolling eachother because one doesnt read the post of the other :3 Seriously, Ironmax. Go read the posts and see that everybody is talking about DATABASE language (SQL) and isnt saying SQL is a PROGRAMING language. Go look again and see that you commited some more missinterpretations.

    Now, stop the trolling apart, lets be honest with ourselves. We dont know everything. Some here knows how SQL works, some knows how BLOB works, some knows both. I do not know SQL, or whatever DB SQL can undestand, but I do know BLOB. And what I know about BLOB is: its make things easy for the machine (less storaged space, quickier response, fast read and write) and hard for the person (have to know how its read, how its transported, how hardware deal with it, have to strip it in order it readable by a person).

    So... Ironmax... Its really not a easy task to convert BLOB into rows and columns and make sure each data is correct in the right row/column. So, dont say its a walk in a park. Its more swimming in a needle sea, and I'm talking about a BLOB of 4 words each data. I do never wanna imagine how many bytes/words each AODB data have.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    And i am Elivs priestly.
    Hello Elivs Priestly. Have you met Elvis Presley? You two have very similar names!

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Lets assume your not trolling for a min:
    Where i say SQL vs Blobb i am talking about MSSQL 2008. SQL is not really a programming language its a script language.

    You don't say "to interact with database", this is wrong terminology. Its called t-sql and
    with blobb you have to read binary so not exactly the same. And Blobb is not a class, your far away here. You can use it as a object thought.
    Blob is a collection of binary data stored as a single entity for DMS.

    The point was, just to make it simple for simple minds = Using standard SQL server instead
    of binary blobb, there is no BIG performance lose. Mkey?


    Now you guys can continue trolling have fun..
    SQL is a language for interacting with databases t-sql is an extension of the SQL language for use with MSSQL databases. BLOB is with 1 b, and while you might think that I mean a class, as in an object in a programming language, then I do not. It's a classification of a datastore. It's binary, meaning you can only read it in one big chunk. And no, it depends on what you store in the BLOB, if it's an image I think you'd find that to be rather more performance friendly than storing said image with a bit pr. row for instance.

    I'm not trolling, I'm just telling you that you are being incorrect in your redelegation of your friend who knows about databases' information and using google-fu to improve upon it doesn't actually make it any better
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by lainbr View Post

    ..I do not know SQL, or whatever DB SQL can undestand, but I do know BLOB. And what I know about BLOB ..

    So... Ironmax... Its really not a easy task to convert BLOB into rows and columns and make sure each data is correct in the right row/column. So, dont say its a walk in a park. Its more swimming in a needle sea, and I'm talking about a BLOB of 4 words each data. I do never wanna imagine how many bytes/words each AODB data have.
    I get this right, you don't know SQL, but you tell me to go read about SQL? I work with SQL
    every day for living, just so you know. I haven't used blob before (haven't got the need to store picture and sound/binary to database) so i only relay on what my partner say about it, since he worked with blob.

    open a binary reader and make query's to store data, is pretty simple task. I have done simular
    task to convert other types of data into SQL db, it all happen with 1 scrip that executed the whole process, of you need correct detentions and you have to redo the entire AO engine
    how to read from the server to internal client functions (thats where the big work is).

    I am sure the AODB isn't that big, since this is the data that's being red all day they when you play AO from the server. This is not the same database that is stored in your client that has allot more data than just from the server database, this data is suppose to be light. I am sure vhab or any other dev at Funcom can tell you more about this.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    SQL is a language for interacting with databases t-sql is an extension of the SQL language for use with MSSQL databases. BLOB is with 1 b, and while you might think that I mean a class, as in an object in a programming language, then I do not. It's a classification of a datastore. It's binary, meaning you can only read it in one big chunk. And no, it depends on what you store in the BLOB, if it's an image I think you'd find that to be rather more performance friendly than storing said image with a bit pr. row for instance.
    Nice copy paste from wiki..

    Why would you store a image in a database, that's what i want to know. This data goes over
    the internet every time the client reads the blob, you want to download a image every time
    you zone to Borealis? Or you just want to download the ID Integer that reference to a image
    stored in your cliend DB? You tell me. dont think google will help you on this one.
    Last edited by Ironmax; Jun 5th, 2012 at 15:23:34.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    I get this right, you don't know SQL, but you tell me to go read about SQL? I work with SQL
    No, I'm telling you to go read about BLOB.
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    And i am Elivs priestly.
    Well, that I can believe, at least.
    <Lazy> who knew ao f*rum denizens were such homophobes?

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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Nice copy paste from wiki..

    Why would you store a image in a database, that's what i want to know. This data goes over
    the internet every time the client reads the blob, you want to download a image every time
    you zone to Borealis? Or you just want to download the ID Integer that reference to a image
    stored in your cliend DB? You tell me. dont think google will help you on this one.
    I work with databases daily, I know what MSSQL is and that they have the t-sql extension, as do all other SQL type databases

    Why you would you store an image in a database? I don't know, it could make sense locally in say a development environment, it was a demonstration for a situation where you could have a clear performance advantage from BLOB over rows and columns. The issue I'm concerned about for the use of BLOBs for storing things isn't performance, because obviously the AO database structure has scaled rather well with the use of it , but because of the problematic nature of changing the content of a BLOB store.

    Why you go on about MSSQL I don't know. There are others, and as far as I know, AO does not use MSSQL.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    I work with databases daily, I know what MSSQL is and that they have the t-sql extension, as do all other SQL type databases
    Yes and ? I never said any thing against this facts. Its just that "interaction with databases"usually have a terminology attached to it. i used t-sql as an example.
    MSSQL should be the first choice when you work with c++. MYSQL not really a good idea to run on a Microsoft server, nor Oracle or Access or what ever crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Why you would you store an image in a database? I don't know, it could make sense locally in say a development environment, it was a demonstration for a situation where you could have a clear performance advantage from BLOB over rows and columns. The issue I'm concerned about for the use of BLOBs for storing things isn't performance, because obviously the AO database structure has scaled rather well with the use of it , but because of the problematic nature of changing the content of a BLOB store.

    Why you go on about MSSQL I don't know. There are others, and as far as I know, AO does not use MSSQL.
    Then we agree on that part of Blob, its not only talk about performance here, i only said that
    if you put a image in to to the blog, you might get performance issue since this is data
    that goes over the internet from server to client. Relying on a big chunk of data
    to retrieve only a tiny important data out, is not really a good solution. If you work
    with server and SQL i am sure you agree.

    We are not talking about local db, we talking about the server. Where data like your zyx cords etc. are retrieved and stored.
    Last edited by Ironmax; Jun 5th, 2012 at 16:13:17.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmax View Post
    Yes and ? I never said any thing against this facts. Its just that "interaction with databases"usually have a terminology attached to it. i used t-sql as an example.
    MSSQL should be the first choice when you work with c++. MYSQL not really a good idea to run on a Microsoft server, nor Oracle or Access or what ever crap.

    We are not talking about local db, we talking about the server. Where data like your zyx cords etc. are retrieved and stored.
    Dunno what the point is to add to SQL t-sql is just an extended set of instructions to SQL after all. AO doesn't run on MYSQL either, but a completely different one , which Means posted the name of a while back.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

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