Rebalance Shadowbreed

[bitnykk]

For too long now this has been denounced & never solved : the way Omni & Clan SB made the mass PVP totally unbalanced wich is even worse today with less people ...

Omni AOE has super aggressive options :
- soli & trox => AOE dot+root,
- nano => 8k AOE nuke.

While Clan AOE only has defensive :
- trox => absorb,
- opi => AAD,
- soli => deroot.

(Please note that TWO omni SB have root while only ONE clan SB has deroot !)
Issue is this way specific roles are created : omnis always take initiative while clans are forced to wait & react back. So this leads right to severe unbalancement problems :

1/ In war, offending side is in field killing towers & the other rushes to defend ; if the offenders are omnis, they can root the defending clan group just as it arrives & be sure omni docs/callers stay far from clan while omnis are themselves more free to move to kill clan docs ; it's worse when the offenders are clans, cause they'll for sure be rooted as omnis rush them, so they won't be able to kill omni docs while clan docs must be VERY lucky/skilled to survive.

2/ In Tarasque raid this is even WORSE as it's a closed space and there's no freaking way for clan docs to hide anywhere : they must stay back of their group, opposite side from omnis ; no matter who is inside and who rushes the other side, clan docs are in a predictable situation all the ways & omnis are a lot more free to move to them, while omni docs can stay safe as clans can't easily move to them.

3/ Once clans are rooted, they face a cornelian choice : whether they all hit some melee omni running among them (wich are often more resistant to damage, eg : enforcers), whether they call some ranged omni in range, but in that case rooted melee clanners are useless ... whereas the omnis don't have that same issue : no matter what they call (melee or ranged clan) their ranged & melee will most of the time be able to hit it all together.

CONCLUSION : at equal number & comparable healing capacities (same number of docs, ma, adv, agent), omnis have HUGE advantages with SB (remember that post-LE time where just 2 omnis could kill an entire zerg of clan with just 1 SB + 1 Orbital Strike ?). No need to say that with a slight less number and/or less healing capacities, omni can do pretty well & even overcome slightly more clanners (wich is rare or impossible the other way).
So as today omnis are a little more than clanners on Rimor, they win almost all war/tara !

SHORTWAY : SB must be side balanced, wich means give same options to both sides OR remove AOE for all !

[Armus]

Imo yes omnis have the better sb's. But they are balanced enough now.

And.. What you can do is to make some neut friends. They have the same kind of SB root AND omnis have no way out of it. Use that.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Imo yes omnis have the better sb's. But they are balanced enough now.

And.. What you can do is to make some neut friends. They have the same kind of SB root AND omnis have no way out of it. Use that.

says the omlet.



No, OP is right. In all of AO, at all times, the aggressor has the advantage. it has always been this way. One easy way to balance it is to add 100% root+snare resist for 20-30 seconds on top Clan Soli SB.

Otherwise, chain Omni SB=100% dead clan, no matter what, because you never get out of roots otherwise. I've seen it many times.

Another way to balance it is to give clan a AOE stun to combat the AOE omni root.

[Seoin]

Maybe they should just give both sides both shadowbreeds, and let you swap between them like a breed perk, with a 3rd type of perk point.

Unlocking both versions of biodome armor to each side would be nice too

[McKnuckleSamwich]

hell yah. good call seoin.

[Armus]

says the omlet.

Say what?

No, OP is right. In all of AO, at all times, the aggressor has the advantage. it has always been this way. One easy way to balance it is to add 100% root+snare resist for 20-30 seconds on top Clan Soli SB.

What's wrong with:

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=215311

Life
Nano Cost: 0 (0)School: Space
Stacking Order: 1
Nanoline: Life
Duration: 00:00:30
Range: 1m
Modifier:
On Target:
Resist Nano: 100% Snare
Resist Nano: 100% Path of Darkness Debuff
Resist Nano: 100% Slam of Darkness Debuff
Resist Nano: 100% Root
Resist Nano: 100% Road To Darkness Debuff
Resist Nano: 100% The Choice Debuff (Omni)
Resist Nano: 100% Mezz
Modify NanoC. Init. 1000
Modify Aggdef 200
Modify Max Nano 4000
Nanopoints +1000
Nanopoints +1000, 6 hits, 5.0s delay

Requirements:
Use:

Must be a player character and
clan

Otherwise, chain Omni SB=100% dead clan, no matter what, because you never get out of roots otherwise. I've seen it many times.

Stay together, use Life at the right time, use soli sb as often as possible. Etc. Clan as won more than omnis historically on rk1 at least.

Another way to balance it is to give clan a AOE stun to combat the AOE omni root.

Or you can get some neut friends and tell them to use their sb roots on omnis.

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=233169

On Use User Cast Road to Darkness
User AOE 25m Road to Darkness Debuff
User AOE 25m Road to Darkness Debuff
User Lock Perk 5033

[Gridpain]

stuf

Obviously, you re just an omni trying to keep your evul advantages !!


On OP... balancing something that has a lock out that long should not be a priority in FC list.... hence... we can safely say it will never be "balanced".

[IHaveHugeNick]

Aww yeah. Too bad one 15k AOE heal from clan Solitus SB will outheal the damage from omni Atrox, Solitus and Nanomage combined. Its a wonder how those clanners even survive. Oh right, might be the 1000 special blockers , def and 100% root resist on Troxes. "Agressor" has no advantage if defensive ability is 20 times more poweful.

Oh and Soldiers can remove SB root now - go figure.

We can argue all day long, but the bottom line is whole thing should be removed, entire concept of 5h recharge special attack is beyond absurd.

[Armus]

Aww yeah. Too bad one 15k AOE heal from clan Solitus SB will outheal the damage from omni Atrox, Solitus and Nanomage combined. Its a wonder how those clanners even survive. Oh right, might be the 1000 special blockers , def and 100% root resist on Troxes. "Agressor" has no advantage if defensive ability is 20 times more poweful.

Oh and Soldiers can remove SB root now - go figure.

We can argue all day long, but the bottom line is whole thing should be removed, entire concept of 5h recharge special attack is beyond absurd.

First part is true ish. But do omni sb's have a lock out like clan soli sb? Cuz it doesn't seem they do at big battles.

[bitnykk]

"Agressor" has no advantage if defensive ability is 20 times more poweful.

Here, i didn't say the omni SB were "more powerful" or something like that : i said both sides should have the same options for balancing as it creates roles AND unbalancement.
Your answer is to pretend that clan SB are better, stronger, etc. Soz, you're out of topic ...
& also, i see no word about the 2 others issues i pointed out (healing & calling). Very selective !
Got anything better ?

----------------------------

Clan as won more than omnis historically on rk1 at least.

Ok but what about Rimor ? If i make all time QL 175-300 victories/attacks ratio :
Rimor => 6.2% of victory for clans, 8.3% of victory for omnis.
Read well : i don't say SB alone explains that difference, but it strongly contributes especially this year with lower population & twice more omlets.

Or you can get some neut friends

The few that PVP on RK2 play omniside. So you got something else to solve the issue ?

use Life at the right time, use soli sb

There is a failure in your logic :
- since approx a year there are about twice more TL7 omnis than clans on RK2
- as i recalled upper, there are twice more omni root SB that clan deroot SB
=> this makes 4 times more rooting & at least 2 times more DD (+ clan DD division i explained in OP) all in favour of omlets ...

I guess that's not really "working as intended". So i claimed exact same options for both sides OR removal of these AOE. Quite simple ...

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Sorry noobius for assuming you were omlet.

As for NM SB, clan don't have any active NM I don't think, it's been so long since I saw one at war.

[IHaveHugeNick]

First part is true ish. But do omni sb's have a lock out like clan soli sb? Cuz it doesn't seem they do at big battles.

Nanomage nuke and most of the beneficial effects have a lockout, soli root and trox might not have though.

Here, i didn't say the omni SB were "more powerful" or something like that :

Er, that exactly what you said, read your own post? Unless you suffer from split personality disorder in which case i apologise.

Very selective !

Hah, right. Coming from a guy who "forgot" to write about key features of clan shadowbreeds while claiming omni shadowbreeds have advantage. Cool story bro.


Shadowbreeds are very situational, omni has advantage with small-medium skirmishes, clan has advantage with big battles. In the end i guess its balanced this way.

Either way its a stupid mechanic that shouldnt even be in a game and i think we can all agree on that for once.

[Gridpain]

Ok but what about Rimor ? If i make all time QL 175-300 victories/attacks ratio :
Rimor => 6.2% of victory for clans, 8.3% of victory for omnis.
Read well : i don't say SB alone explains that difference, but it strongly contributes especially this year with lower population & twice more omlets.

First, who won the 85.5 % other battles ??

Secondly, if there's twice many omni than clan, ratio should be 100% win for omni.
Hence, Clan Shadowbreed must be too powerfull !

So nerf clan SB, obviously !

[Awikun]

Or you can get some neut friends and tell them to use their sb roots on omnis.

http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=233169

On Use User Cast Road to Darkness
User AOE 25m Road to Darkness Debuff
User AOE 25m Road to Darkness Debuff
User Lock Perk 5033

Last time I tried that on my 220 Neut it worked on both Omnis and Clan
Made a lot of "friends" that day and at one point even got targeted by Omni and Clan callers at the same time

[bitnykk]

Last time I tried that on my 220 Neut it worked on both Omnis and Clan

Thanx for you feedback Never thought it'd be so stupidly implemented.
I can imagine how you felt being double-called & insta-overkilled ...
Also, makes the "neut friend" suggestion twice useless (as RK2 neut play omni anyways).

First, who won the 85.5 % other battles ??

Seems you have issues with maths or english (or both ...).
Read my post again, eventually you'll get what a RATIO is.
Or you can PM me if you need details.

Er, that exactly what you said, read your own post? Unless you suffer from split personality disorder in which case i apologise.

Might be humour or provocation (or both), but i'll stay polite & factual.
I used exact expressions like "super aggressive" or "HUGE advantages".
So it doesn't look like i said it was "too powerful" as you suggested.
I claimed for equal options both side, not to nerf one or the other.
In the end, seems i have good souvenir of my writings and a solid personality.
So, thanx for the free analysis

Hah, right. Coming from a guy who "forgot" to write about key features of clan shadowbreeds

Then, please write about this "key feature" ?

Shadowbreeds are very situational, omni has advantage with small-medium skirmishes, clan has advantage with big battles.

Okay and what if the population goes low, say, like for 1 or 2 years now ?
Hmmm ... and by the way, is it me or was it something i mentionned in OP ?!
So now who's selective (or with split personnality as you admit "omni has advantage", now) ?
But ... IHaveHugeNick ? What are you doing with this axe ? Noez ! Stop !11!

Either way its a stupid mechanic that shouldnt even be in a game and i think we can all agree on that for once.

OMG ! First sensed stuff you post in this thread !
Miracles can happen. Now, i'm a believer thanx to you !

[bitnykk]

Going back on few details :

if there's twice many omni than clan, ratio should be 100% win for omni.

Nah, should be at least twice more omni than clans, right ?
Now, and since a while now, on 22 TL7 (175+) fields, very few are clans.
Atm : 6 for clans (27%) => 22 (73%) for omnis. Tyg !

So nerf clan SB, obviously !

Point is : nerf both sides or give both sides same options.

1000 special blockers , def and 100% root resist on Troxes

You speak of http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=215361 ?
FYI AOE is 15 special blocker (the 1K+def isn't AOE).

whole thing should be removed

Or balanced. There we agree again.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I actually like SB's.

I think we should reduce the effectiveness of them and lower the recharge so they can be used pretty much every fight.

15m recharge.

[IHaveHugeNick]

i didn't say the omni SB were "more powerful"

.
it doesn't look like i said it was "too powerful"

omnis have HUGE advantages with SB

Then, please write about this "key feature" ?

Couple of people already did - read the thread. Although you seem to have trouble figuring out what even your own posts say. Think i'll pass on this discussion until you graduate from primary school.

[bitnykk]

Think i'll pass on this discussion until you graduate from primary school.

You might apply this to yourself 1st, cuz instead of debating with clear arguments you try to bring it on "primary school" insult level. I won't follow you in such childish attempt, dear.

Then, while you're growing up, don't forget to bring some honesty in debate, will you :

I *never* said it was "more powerful" or "too powerful" : i EXACTLY said it brought unequal options/positions for each sides. Your previous message (quoting me) prooves it quite well.
As you clearly require details to understand the subtlety : the issue i state here isn't coming from the RELATIVE POWER (analogy) of the omni/clan SB lines but comes from their DIFFERENCES IN NATURE (ontology).
Are you still helpless ? Geez ... who's in primary school needing simple concept lesson ?
Meaned : even IF both SB lines had theorically same level of power/faculty (one in def, one in off) they still create role unbalancement (def/off), hence specific advantage/benefit for one side as i explained in OP - thing you even finally admitted rite here :

omni has advantage with small-medium skirmishes

Btw, do i claim you're saying omni SB is "too powerfull" from this line ? No i am not.
I've been honest since start : i claimed equal AOE options for both sides OR AOE removal, basing on clear arguments. See, this makes sense : i didn't claim to NERF omni SB (e.g. : shorten the roots) to make it "less powerful" - as i would if i thought it was "too powerful". So your point makes no sense - and writing it big & red is useless.

As comparison, you jumped in here to try convince us clan SB was ("20 times" ... lol why not 100 ? 10 000 ?) "more powerful" & that i was kinda schizo (wich is ironic as you keep contradicting yourself ... call it projection) while avoiding several issues (call, heal, DD) i mentionned in OP. And as last argument left, what you got ? Insults ... sorry for you, Schopenhauer.

you seem to have trouble figuring out what even your own posts say

Feel free to be more specific if there's any solid argument behind such assumption.

Or get yourself together & stop trying to biaise other's people statements ?
Thxrgardzbye.

[Stillian]

You might apply this to yourself 1st, cuz instead of debating with clear arguments you try to bring it on "primary school" insult level. I won't follow you in such childish attempt, dear.

Then, while you're growing up, don't forget to bring some honesty in debate, will you :

I *never* said it was "more powerful" or "too powerful" : i EXACTLY said it brought unequal options/positions for each sides. Your previous message (quoting me) prooves it quite well.
As you clearly require details to understand the subtlety : the issue i state here isn't coming from the RELATIVE POWER (analogy) of the omni/clan SB lines but comes from their DIFFERENCES IN NATURE (ontology).
Are you still helpless ? Geez ... who's in primary school needing simple concept lesson ?
Meaned : even IF both SB lines had theorically same level of power/faculty (one in def, one in off) they still create role unbalancement (def/off), hence specific advantage/benefit for one side as i explained in OP - thing you even finally admitted rite here :



Btw, do i claim you're saying omni SB is "too powerfull" from this line ? No i am not.
I've been honest since start : i claimed equal AOE options for both sides OR AOE removal, basing on clear arguments. See, this makes sense : i didn't claim to NERF omni SB (e.g. : shorten the roots) to make it "less powerful" - as i would if i thought it was "too powerful". So your point makes no sense - and writing it big & red is useless.

As comparison, you jumped in here to try convince us clan SB was ("20 times" ... lol why not 100 ? 10 000 ?) "more powerful" & that i was kinda schizo (wich is ironic as you keep contradicting yourself ... call it projection) while avoiding several issues (call, heal, DD) i mentionned in OP. And as last argument left, what you got ? Insults ... sorry for you, Schopenhauer.


Feel free to be more specific if there's any solid argument behind such assumption.

Or get yourself together & stop trying to biaise other's people statements ?
Thxrgardzbye.

Projection is primarily an emotional thing. I'm fairly sure this thread is facts and figures. SB is unequal for a reason. You make a choice when you go Clan, in theory anyway. You get less money in shops, you used to have to do much more with much less, you used to lack the overall power, HENCE the fact that Clan SB is defensive to match the guerrilla nature of that faction, whereas Omni is much more suited to overwhelming force.

You made a choice, live with it, that's life. You are expected to do much more with much less when you go Clan, which, with your forum join date you should really (just about) remember.

Besides which, I am disappointed to see arguments for SB 'rebalancing' when we should be arguing for removal or replacement. It's an awful mechanic, despite the fact it's a great graphic.