So, About the "Neutral Neck Item Imbalance"

[Cogline]

Or just let us Neuts kick Omni out of Borealis. I mean that big Mech's been sitting there doing nowt for how long? But seriously: Neut Daily consists of "Go here, kill this bloke in the instanced mission, bring back the sealed equipment crate he has, get a City Controller Widget." But "You already have this unique item." Why not get your free Neut Ident Chip (rotting in the bank as it's used for sweet Fanny Adams right now), give that with the crate to our NPC in Newland City (who gave you the blasted chip and mission to stop Neuts profiteering from the Omni-Clan war in the first place), and TA-DA! One step closer to a Neut only, ICC Sanctioned, upgrading neck widget given to Neutral Observers to boost Comp Lit and Run Speed so we can help observe & fight Cyborgs. No, wait, it's too sensible and reasonable to work...

[Khrystanna]

I only read the fist page, and i have one thing to say... Pick a side and stop complaining!
Since neuts do not participate in the conflict between Omni and Clan, there should be disadvantages.

[sultryvoltron]

I only read the fist page, and i have one thing to say... Pick a side and stop complaining!
Since neuts do not participate in the conflict between Omni and Clan, there should be disadvantages.

You will find that this thread is not about advantages or disadvantages of being neutral.

[Gatester]

I only read the fist page, and i have one thing to say... Pick a side and stop complaining!
Since neuts do not participate in the conflict between Omni and Clan, there should be disadvantages.

This is incorrect on so many levels. If you want to claim something like this for an argument you might want to re-check your facts.

[Utopian]

This is incorrect on so many levels. If you want to claim something like this for an argument you might want to re-check your facts.

Neuts participate in the conflict...the question is "should they". Don't give me the "RP is crap response" its the story line of the game. If FC wants to build up a third faction - then they should do it, but its not a "neutral faction" once it takes a stance vs Clan or Omni.

[Lazy]

You will find that this thread is not about advantages or disadvantages of being neutral.

really? because you seem to mention advantages/disadvantages of being neutral quite a bit in a thread that isn't supposed to be about advantages or disadvantages of being neutral.

It's about time that Neutrals get some proper neck item options available to all TLs.

Would you care to list them? Our biggest advantage was recently given to everyone with the new GMI system.

But, thank you for affirming that the biggest advantage of being Neutral, namely the GMS advantage, has come and gone. Perhaps it is time to revisit the idea of Neutral advantages, as well as the neck item imbalance.

Also, having as many people as possible who can go on either side of the battlestation sounds like its only positive. There are literally no negative aspects of that. In fact, the benefits are so overwhelmingly positive, that most people would love the idea of a red vs blue battlestation with randomly assigned sides.

[Gatester]

Neuts participate in the conflict...the question is "should they". Don't give me the "RP is crap response" its the story line of the game. If FC wants to build up a third faction - then they should do it, but its not a "neutral faction" once it takes a stance vs Clan or Omni.

Not every neutral is some peace-loving hippie. Neutral means "not clan, not omni". You guys simply have no concept of neutral and keep confusing it with noncombatant.

What faction is dust-brigade?
What faction are cyborgs?
What faction are mercenaries?

They are not clan and not omni, they are neutral. In political terms you would call them independants, which does not mean they do not participate, they simply support or oppose a side when they desire.

[Lazy]

Not every neutral is some peace-loving hippie. Neutral means "not clan, not omni". You guys simply have no concept of neutral and keep confusing it with noncombatant.

What faction is dust-brigade?
What faction are cyborgs?
What faction are mercenaries?

They are not clan and not omni, they are neutral. In political terms you would call them independants, which does not mean they do not participate, they simply support or oppose a side when they desire.

i dont think neutral means what you think it means.


neu·tral/ˈn(y)o͞otrəl/
Adjective:
Not helping or supporting either of two opposing sides, esp. countries at war; impartial.
Noun:
An impartial and uninvolved country or person.
Synonyms:
neuter - indifferent - impartial



i.e. switzerland during WWII

NOT omni-lite or clan-lite teh way every single neut that pvp's is.

imo neuts should be barred from participating in pvp until they pick a side. would solve a lot of issues (such as OP's neverending quest for a better tokenboard)

[Utopian]

Not every neutral is some peace-loving hippie. Neutral means "not clan, not omni". You guys simply have no concept of neutral and keep confusing it with noncombatant.

What faction is dust-brigade?
What faction are cyborgs?
What faction are mercenaries?

They are not clan and not omni, they are neutral. In political terms you would call them independants, which does not mean they do not participate, they simply support or oppose a side when they desire.

You and others insist that as long as you are not clan or omni, you must be neutral. Neutrals in terms of this game are cast-offs of the two factions and are neutral by choice (i.e. they left clan/omni on their own) but the players want the power of faction without being one.

There is no confusion with noncombatant. And - fyi - many noncombatants have a side in a confllict. The term means they chose not to kill (many in the medical core are noncombantants by choice, clergy, i can go on). I said in my post that neutrals participate - my question is why are they allowed to? In terms of the game, they are not a third faction - they are not the other NPC groups you listed.

If FC wants to create a new faction and set it up to work within the game - that would be fine with me (in fact it might be fun). But you cannot keep asking for faction level power without the faction part - it just makes no sense to me and would disrupt the mechanics of the game as designed (imo).

For example, I think there should be a lock on a neutral that attacks clan/omni that removes the protections they get from that side. Kill a clan - lose all clan sided protection for XX hours/days. Do it X times and for all purposes you are seen as "omni" - but the game doesnt support that mechanic.

[sultryvoltron]

really? because you seem to mention advantages/disadvantages of being neutral quite a bit in a thread that isn't supposed to be about advantages or disadvantages of being neutral.

When responding to specific comments, it is best to respond to what is stated.

You will notice that those quotes are in response to other people who have mentioned it. The first post does not support what you claim.

Keep trying.

[Unikorn]

Pretty much. I'd like it a lot if there was more to being omni or clan than just who has tl7 towers and a very few select items. Some more omni and clan specific content and conveniences would help ****e up the factions. It's a real shame that pretty much the only difference in content is which garden you pull inf missions from

What I'd like would be for FC to design some faction specific content and quests to further give each of the factions some personality. I'd love to see the war between omni and clan pick up, and content for it. A proper conflict between the factions is very important for keeping a game healthy, and right now that is lacking. I just don't want the devs to think that faction specific items that give one(or two) factions a set-in-stone power advantage over the other is a legitimate way to create that conflict and balance the sides. If neutral is to be designed as a less desired faction, then make it require more work than the other factions to reach the same rewards.

This is actually a great idea. The outcome would be the same but the journey would be tougher/longer. I like the sound of that. The reason to go Clan/Omni would remain while Neutrals would get what they want at the same time.

/me bows to you

[Lazy]

When responding to specific comments, it is best to respond to what is stated.

You will notice that those quotes are in response to other people who have mentioned it. The first post does not support what you claim.

Keep trying.

so a thread where people are discussing advantages to being neutral isn't a thread about advantages to being neutral? fascinating.

[sultryvoltron]

so a thread where people are discussing advantages to being neutral isn't a thread about advantages to being neutral? fascinating.

There's another thread about beer that's hidden inside some other thread. Doesn't mean the thread was about beer.

[wonderland]

woo you got the advantage of looking at both shopping channels wow you know you could almost be replaced with a froob or shopping bot.

Anyhoo, again, I'm not saying that neck-slot item alternatives for Neutrals isn't something we won't see in the future; obviously The Main Man has no qualms with this (and neither do I, honestly - neck items are fine by me, tokens are different territory), but it then becomes a question of implementation - Where, when, how, etc. etc.

He didn't say, "No new neck items for neutrals," he said, "No token boards for neutrals." He made sure to emphasize the difference. No token gathering, no tokens for roleplay reasons. But, merit boards (Like the xan combat, xan defense, dreadloch boards) are okay. Doing quests or other processes for a neck item is okay.

[Xootch]

neutrals don't get tokenboards. you knew that when you joint their parasite ranks. end of discussion. we should rather discuss taking back the perks clans recieved over time. omni is bad, but got nice phatz. that was the deal. for years. until some hippie took over.

[Gatester]

i dont think neutral means what you think it means.


neu·tral/ˈn(y)o͞otrəl/
Adjective:
Not helping or supporting either of two opposing sides, esp. countries at war; impartial.
Noun:
An impartial and uninvolved country or person.
Synonyms:
neuter - indifferent - impartial



i.e. switzerland during WWII

NOT omni-lite or clan-lite teh way every single neut that pvp's is.

imo neuts should be barred from participating in pvp until they pick a side. would solve a lot of issues (such as OP's neverending quest for a better tokenboard)

So dictionary definitions should apply over the actual game's design now?

Definition of OMNI-
: all : universally <omnidirectional>

Obviously, omni includes omni, clan, and neutral by definition. If we follow your example, Lazy, then there is only 1 faction in the game and no one has even bothered fighting each other because Omni, by definition, means all.


You guys really do not understand what neutral means in respect to Anarchy Online, so I will attempt to help illustrate it as I understand it.

CLAN <------------------------Neutral-------------------------->OMNI

Get it now? It has nothing to do with not being involved in the combat, it has to do with their position in regards to the other factions. Neutrals are simply those in the middle, it has nothing to do with their actions, or if you have not noticed neutral players in AO can play however they want, and as close to the omni or clan faction as they like without actually being part of those two factions.

Being stuck on the definition of neutral is just ignorant.

[Xootch]

So dictionary definitions should apply over the actual game's design now?

Definition of OMNI-
: all : universally <omnidirectional>

Obviously, omni includes omni, clan, and neutral by definition. If we follow your example, Lazy, then there is only 1 faction in the game and no one has even bothered fighting each other because Omni, by definition, means all.

what do you think omnis fight for?!

[Utopian]

So dictionary definitions should apply over the actual game's design now?

Definition of OMNI-
: all : universally <omnidirectional>

Obviously, omni includes omni, clan, and neutral by definition. If we follow your example, Lazy, then there is only 1 faction in the game and no one has even bothered fighting each other because Omni, by definition, means all.


You guys really do not understand what neutral means in respect to Anarchy Online, so I will attempt to help illustrate it as I understand it.

CLAN <------------------------Neutral-------------------------->OMNI

Get it now? It has nothing to do with not being involved in the combat, it has to do with their position in regards to the other factions. Neutrals are simply those in the middle, it has nothing to do with their actions, or if you have not noticed neutral players in AO can play however they want, and as close to the omni or clan faction as they like without actually being part of those two factions.

Being stuck on the definition of neutral is just ignorant.

All I can say is wow..... so you try to use defintions (that fail quite poorly, as in your noncombantat one) and now you are trying to use a dictionary for Omni? Omni is the company - its just a name. I guess in your mind Apple Computer should be a fruit PC on a tree. Arrogance on your part doesnt make you correct, neither does name calling.

Your diagram is, quite frankly, wrong. Neutrals are not a mid point between Omni and Clan - they are the cast outs of both factions. For someone with your years, you really should know the lore better.

And I agree that neutral "players" can do whatever they like in regards to Clan and Omni - my question is WHY. In my opinion, its a flaw in the game to allow them to get to 220, have towers, fight in BS, etc without some sort of repercussions of their decisions.

So again, I suggest - fight for a third Faction - call it something, but the "neutrals" in this game have a meaning and its not as a third faction.

[Gatester]

what do you think omnis fight for?!

You really want to go down this road? What they fight for and what they actually are is two entirely different things, but if you think bringing up the philosophical purpose of each group will help you then you are about to be disappointed. If you wish to have a "role-playing" argument with me along with Lazy then I am more than willing to bring one.

The Profiteer's Helper
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=223466
This advanced robotic helper was made by Emmet Bazzit, the father of the well known 'Uncle' Bazzit. It does not work in perfectly legal ways, and it is not perfectly safe to use, but it does give very good assistance.

A neutral only neck item developed for the benefit of neutrals.


Experimental Cyborg Token Board
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=244719
This is an experimental token board, developed by cyborgs. It is based on technology stolen from RUR and Uncle Bazzit's Foundry. It features some surprisingly innovative solutions.

An item created by a neutral group, that is one that is neither clan nor omni, in order to mimic the benefits of the clan and omni token boards. Being based on technology from RUR and Uncle Bazzit it can be assumed that Uncle Bazzit was developing neck item technology of his own.


Smuggled Combat Merit Board Base
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267106
Smuggled Nanite Merit Board Base
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267108
This is a base component used to produce merit boards. It has yet to be programmed with any factional data. Usually such base parts are pre-programmed with their alignment functions prior to shipping from the production plants so this has presumably been smuggled out for sale on the black market.
This board has already been loaded with an integrated nanite factory.

Merit board bases, indicating that the neck item technology exists without faction requirements and is therefore usueable by anyone. The second board, having an additional line of description, indicates that the boards can have certain modifications without requiring a faction as well.


The summary:
Neutral sympathizers were developing neck item technology which was not meant for clan nor omni use. Uncle Bazzit, who is also considered a supporter of neutrals, was developing neck item technology as well which was modified and used by cyborgs. This indicates that groups other than clan and omni had a desire for token or merit board type items. Uncle Bazzit wearing the Jobe-Support Suit could indicate a relationship between himself and Jobe Scientists, which means he would also have been developing neck technology for that particular group.

Given the dangers of the shadowlands, and the ability of non-clan and non-omni groups to develop neck item technology, it is safe to assume that all neutral groups would also be developing this technology for their own members as well.

The smuggled merit boards also indicate that the technology exists in a state which can be used by neutrals until specifically modified. As the desire for these items would certainly be high, and very well profitable as attempts to steal them have been made, one would be foolish to think any group would go without the desire for their own versions of the neck items. As the omni and clan merit boards offer the exact same benefits, my summation is that faction element of the merit boards does nothing to improve them, it simply limits their use. Therefore, a neutral useable merit board of equal strength to clan and omni merit boards could certainly exist.


I could easily go on and even argue for neutrals having a more powerful merit board than both clan and omni. I am not in support of a token board for neutrals, at least nothing within 15-20% of the strength of what the factions have, but if you guys are going to argue what it means to be neutral in an attempt to say neutrals would not have one, you WILL lose the argument.

[sultryvoltron]

And I agree that neutral "players" can do whatever they like in regards to Clan and Omni - my question is WHY. In my opinion, its a flaw in the game to allow them to get to 220, have towers, fight in BS, etc without some sort of repercussions of their decisions.

You should make your own game then.

As far as AO is concerned, Neutrals exist, they can participate in PvP, fight in BS, etc. That is a subject for another thread.

This thread is about the gap present in Neutral neck items. With the introduction of the Xan expansion, that gap grew from previously acceptable levels. It was brought up to Means who promised that it would be changed.

Means is now gone, it has not been changed.