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Thread: City Plot Prices and Upkeep

  1. #181
    To drain credits and have a regular, predictable system, rather than one that is to a casual eye completely random. I honestly don't see the difference between a price of 191 million and 250 million to a new, starting player who has never had a city before or has never had any prior experience with AO and its internal pricing.
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  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    To drain credits and have a regular, predictable system, rather than one that is to a casual eye completely random. I honestly don't see the difference between a price of 191 million and 250 million to a new, starting player who has never had a city before or has never had any prior experience with AO and its internal pricing.
    Perhaps new players will be pleasantly ignorant of past prices for cities.

    I suppose there could have been a huge real estate boom and land prices went up ...

    City rents went up as well due to higher costs for maintenance, insurance, and labor issues ... resulting in a pricing method based on buildings rather than the old plot size pricing ...

    It still seems over-priced if the new Small city plot costs more than the prior Medium city plot.

    The rent cost per building is a separate issue ... is it supposed to be based on foot-print or value-added? Consistent or arbitrary between different buildings?

    Kinnik

  3. #183
    There are a couple people who seem to be of the opinion that farming bots/nodrops, etc. they can make billions. Maybe today they can convince someone to buy the items. But the key is they are not actually bringing a single credit into the game. Just arranging a credit transfer from another player. That may help them pay their rent, but for how long. The point is that in the past fc erred and through s10, ingots, and a few other items allowed massive amounts of credits into the game through "killing and looting." Those days are gone, and getting credits into the game is now a time consuming repetitve boring process. Now funcom is trying to raise rents to create a credit sink. Ok, but they have seemingly done nothing to balance the credits into and out of the game.

    The essential problem is that those premising they continued wealth on credit transfers (sales to other player) are playing a fool's game without some effort on funcoms part to balance the economy (inflows and sinks for credits).

    Even worse, to me, are those spouting that cities are a luxury and that if you can't afford one youu should not have one or that they must play in a manner they do not want to get the benefits that they need to improve their toons. People are forgetting several things. One, this is a GAME, Two, if people are forced to play in ways they do not want to get the things they need, they will quit. Three, If they are forced into endless repetition of boring actions to enable them to pay for the items they want, they will quit. Basic human behivour is being missed here. The basic rules of motivation if you punish people for doing what you want them to do (you want them to play the game and pay for it, but are forcing them do do what they do not want to do for example), they will stop. If you reward people doing things you do not want them to do (farming, usury pricing, etc.) they will continue to do it.

    It is simple, the city price changes will cause many people into a model of boring activity and they will simply give up and quit, especially new players. Not saying cities should be easy, but they certainly should be reasonably priced as they are in integral part of the game.
    Last edited by Deemure; Jan 29th, 2013 at 01:33:36.

  4. #184
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  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Deemure View Post
    There are a couple people who seem to be of the opinion that farming bots/nodrops, etc. they can make billions. Maybe today they can convince someone to buy the items. But the key is they are not actually bringing a single credit into the game. Just arranging a credit transfer from another player. That may help them pay their rent, but for how long. The point is that in the past fc erred and through s10, ingots, and a few other items allowed massive amounts of credits into the game through "killing and looting." Those days are gone, and getting credits into the game is now a time consuming repetitve boring process. Now funcom is trying to raise rents to create a credit sink. Ok, but they have seemingly done nothing to balance the credits into and out of the game.

    The essential problem is that those premising they continued wealth on credit transfers (sales to other player) are playing a fool's game without some effort on funcoms part to balance the economy (inflows and sinks for credits).
    I think you're severely underestimating the amount of creds in the economy. I have multiple friends who have over 10b EACH. Not worth 10b, but literally 10 cred-capped characters or more.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're severely underestimating the amount of creds in the economy. I have multiple friends who have over 10b EACH. Not worth 10b, but literally 10 cred-capped characters or more.
    I think you missed Deemure's point ... many seem to have missed it.

    Everyone appears to agree that veteran players have tons of credits and the game economy has tons of credits. Plus, veteran players can farm items/loot-rights to sell to other players for more credits (transfer credits, not new credits).

    To me anyways, what Deemure is saying is that these city/rent prices are too high for new players who have zero credits and zero high-level toons to farm items to sell in order to get credits.

    The issue is pricing the new cities in order to encourage new players to the game ...

    Kinnik

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    /snip

    To me anyways, what Deemure is saying is that these city/rent prices are too high for new players who have zero credits and zero high-level toons to farm items to sell in order to get credits.

    The issue is pricing the new cities in order to encourage new players to the game ...

    Kinnik
    Which ironically, leads one to think these so-called 'New Players' might, *gasp*, do what most of us did...& join a friendly Organisation with experienced players with all these expensive items already there & ready.

    It's annoying to see SO may people with the attidtude that *Everything* should be available to *all* with little to no effort. Example being, this hypothetical 'New Player' that is oh so put-out by the fact they can't have that expensive item such as a city or a RBP (Insert any of the numerous high-end items here) right now without doing what everyone else did & Work For Them.

    We all started on Rubi-ka exactly the same. Nothing but the starter weapon & an inclination to explore.

    The Weak Shall Perish.

    (I'm not saying things can't be improved in the starter areas, but that isn't what this post is dealing with. It's the immediate sense of entitlement that I see so many players with now & it's is annoying, to say the least.)
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  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    I think you missed Deemure's point ... many seem to have missed it.

    Everyone appears to agree that veteran players have tons of credits and the game economy has tons of credits. Plus, veteran players can farm items/loot-rights to sell to other players for more credits (transfer credits, not new credits).

    To me anyways, what Deemure is saying is that these city/rent prices are too high for new players who have zero credits and zero high-level toons to farm items to sell in order to get credits.

    The issue is pricing the new cities in order to encourage new players to the game ...

    Kinnik
    cities are not for new players. cities for entire organizations. so who cares if a new player can't afford to pay city rent every month? they're not supposed to. which is the point deemure missed i think.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiken View Post
    Which ironically, leads one to think these so-called 'New Players' might, *gasp*, do what most of us did...& join a friendly Organisation with experienced players with all these expensive items already there & ready.

    It's annoying to see SO may people with the attidtude that *Everything* should be available to *all* with little to no effort. Example being, this hypothetical 'New Player' that is oh so put-out by the fact they can't have that expensive item such as a city or a RBP (Insert any of the numerous high-end items here) right now without doing what everyone else did & Work For Them.

    We all started on Rubi-ka exactly the same. Nothing but the starter weapon & an inclination to explore.

    The Weak Shall Perish.

    (I'm not saying things can't be improved in the starter areas, but that isn't what this post is dealing with. It's the immediate sense of entitlement that I see so many players with now & it's is annoying, to say the least.)

    This is precisely the attitude that, if followed will even further reduce participation in the game. The point is that it is a game, the question is whether it is a game for new/returning players to participate and enjoy or is it a game pandering to fewer and fewer players, mostly those whe accumulated vast sums when obtaining credits was easy. Getting credits into the game is no longer as easy as it used to be in the days of s10 bounties and ingots. So, should cities be limited only to the "haves" in the game, most of whon do not want froobs, newbies, or casual players in their moidst? You know this is true, just look at the webpages for many guilds and you will see language that effectively limits participation, "interviews" to ensure the new member adhere to the same play style, and similar exclusions. There are very few orgs that wellcome new and froob toons. Unfortunely many of these orgs, in the past, have experienced Presidents leaving the guild after draining the org bank, causing towers and cities to crash, changing "side," and imposing hefty taxes to pay for the president's alts equipment. So it is not a surprise that to see many more small orgs where people actually know (often personally or thought social media) the other orgmembers.

    Finally, why should cities be a luxury? The ability for farm your own alien armor is not something any paid player should have the ability to do without joing in and being forced to play a particular style? This is like saying beast equipment is a luxury. Perhaps fc should start charging 1B for beast raid per player. Cities are no more a luxury that any other part of the game. Sure cities should not be too easy, but they should be affordable to players and balanced to the ability to earn credits (not transfer them from other players) rather than based on some assumptions about how many credis may or may not be in the game.

    Fianlly the issue of credits in the game. A fully equipped large city costs in the range of 140M month upkeep, or !.4B a year. Although I can't count I cities, the last count I have show roughly 100 open-air citis on each server. With the merge, say 150. If all are big cities, that extracts 210B annually from the game. Just how long will the excess credits stay in the game? The point is that city rents must be comparable to the ability to bring credits into the game, not how many there are already in the game or how many can be transferred from toon to toon.

    I will admit that I am looking long term here. But in a couple years, maybe three, there will be few that will be able to afford city maintenance. Hence based on extrapolation on ways to bring credits into the game, an upkeep of 80-100M a month would be in order to try to balance the game inflows/opwtfolws and the farming activities needed. Equally important, the amount of time spent farming to get credits into the game will become an increasing burden as the excess credits are drained. This, in my opinion will turn the game into essentially dull dreary game where most of the time is spent getting credits.

    Finally trying to force people into big orgs simply will not work. One, bucause as mentioned about, many big orgs don't want new/froob/?? players, and two because a lot of people don't want to be in one. So with this model, it ends up you have to grind for credit and participate in ways you do not want to play. So expect a significant remaining partion of the playerbase to leave and the attempts to attrace new players, especially casual player, to fail.
    Last edited by Deemure; Jan 29th, 2013 at 19:04:57.

  10. #190
    Demure, there is SO much in your last post that I disagree with, I really don't know where to start.

    I think i'll just use a quote from Cpn. Jack.

    It's not the problem that's the problem. It's your attitude about the problem that's the problem.

    That, in essence, covers most of what could be have been mullti-page reply to you.
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  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Deemure View Post
    Finally, why should cities be a luxury? The ability for farm your own alien armor is not something any paid player should have the ability to do without joing in and being forced to play a particular style? This is like saying beast equipment is a luxury. Perhaps fc should start charging 1B for beast raid per player. Cities are no more a luxury that any other part of the game. Sure cities should not be too easy, but they should be affordable to players and balanced to the ability to earn credits (not transfer them from other players) rather than based on some assumptions about how many credis may or may not be in the game.
    owning a farm city is not a luxury. you can get a HQ planted for what? like 20m/mnth on a small plot?

    what IS a luxury is a large, fully planted city designed for orgs.


    so are you saying everyone and their mum should be able to afford a fulsized city designed for entire organizations? or are you saying everyone should be able to afford a way to farm combined? because if it's the former you're delusional, and if it's the latter well, they already can. 20m/mnth is less than pocket change. you can make that much by blitzing 4 nanos.

  12. #192
    NO, what I am saying is that cities , even large ones should be abailable to all players withing the limits of their paid accounts. The rents should be priced to reasonably balance the various ways of getting credits into the game compared ot the monthly cost (not the buy in for a city). If too much effort is needed to maintain a city, and people don't like large orgs they will quit. And third that access to city benefits should not be limited to only those who prefer to play a particular style.

    Also blitzing nano does not bring credits into the game unless you loot every mob and chest along the way and sell it at a kiosk. It only transfers it between toons to sell on gmi or channels.
    Last edited by Deemure; Jan 29th, 2013 at 19:31:46.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Deemure View Post
    The reality is that if people are forced to play a GAME THEY PAY FOR in a manner they do not like, or are forced into endless repetitive credit farming actions, they will quit. hence the need for some balance. And, the current rents are too far in one direction.
    you're SO right. i PAY TO PLAY THIS GAME and i DEMAND someone hands me a full set of 300 combined every time i roll a new toon! or else i will quit because this is a GAME I PAY FOR

  14. #194
    Aaand, we're right back to the sense of entitlement that I was referring to earlier.....
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  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiken View Post
    Aaand, we're right back to the sense of entitlement that I was referring to earlier.....
    no aiken, you dont understand. everyone pays the same subscription so everyone has to be the same. and everyone's opinion, no matter how cracked out, should be listened to and accepted. that's how it works.

  16. #196
    So first the argument was that small orgs couldn't afford the cities, but shouldn't be forced to change their playstyle, and now the argument is that new players can't afford the cities and can't get into orgs that do interviews to maintain a certain in-org community, but those orgs should change their playstyle so that new players can have a city? Really?

    Deemure, you're missing a very essential bit of information, it seems. These prices can be changed! People in this thread, even those saying the prices are too high, say that they can afford the new prices, but that new players can't. First, what new players? And second, why wouldn't FC have the prices high to drain some credits from the economy, and then use some of their magical abilities to change things ingame to lower the prices once inflation has gotten to a reasonable level? Realistically, that seems like the best way to get currently active creds out of the economy at a reasonably fast rate, while letting people feel like they're getting something for their money rather than just logging on to find that everyone lost a couple zeros on their bank accounts.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    owning a farm city is not a luxury. you can get a HQ planted for what? like 20m/mnth on a small plot?

    what IS a luxury is a large, fully planted city designed for orgs.
    Can't believe i'm about to do this but I agree with Lazy on this point.

    Large cities with all the bells and whistles should be for orgs not individuals.

    However if you can solo a city raid you should be able to afford 20m a month to farm ai armor with just bare minimums planted. 1 bot drop "can" fund your city for a few months.

    I also agree with Dem on the attitude section though. I do not mind froobs in my org or new players just because I like to see a lot of chat. But there are plenty that do not feel the same way. Also correct on credits in game, most credit making is somewhat of a grind. That grind is amplified at lower levels while you are still trying to equip yourself. The interaction between players is the main draw of mmo's. If that interaction is negative Dem is correct that players will eventually quit.

    I also think that the game is not that hard, but once new players see how easy things are for most vets is when that sense of entitlement sets in. We want instant gratification and they don't realize or understand that those vets have spent years making things easier on themselves in game at some point the hard old fashioned way.
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Can't believe i'm about to do this but I agree with Lazy on this point.

    Large cities with all the bells and whistles should be for orgs not individuals.

    However if you can solo a city raid you should be able to afford 20m a month to farm ai armor with just bare minimums planted. 1 bot drop "can" fund your city for a few months.

    I also agree with Dem on the attitude section though. I do not mind froobs in my org or new players just because I like to see a lot of chat. But there are plenty that do not feel the same way. Also correct on credits in game, most credit making is somewhat of a grind. That grind is amplified at lower levels while you are still trying to equip yourself. The interaction between players is the main draw of mmo's. If that interaction is negative Dem is correct that players will eventually quit.

    I also think that the game is not that hard, but once new players see how easy things are for most vets is when that sense of entitlement sets in. We want instant gratification and they don't realize or understand that those vets have spent years making things easier on themselves in game at some point the hard old fashioned way.
    And now I will agree with you (damn)...except for the City issue (part of it).

    When did we start talking about a solo-farmner? Of course they would build a small city. Why waste the monthly rent credits.

    The discussion was about small orgs (how many players has never been mentioned as far as I remember). With Genele's comments, it seems that they feel small orgs (#s?) should merge to larger ones - but that is not how many people want to play the game. I like my org with 20ish people(almost all vets, multiple accounts) - we are friends and we like to play together. We combine with other orgs/folks to do alot of the content; but we like our chat without the other org drama.

    I believe Dee was talking about the "ability" to make credits. That is gone now except for some very grindy, basic stuff. All the vets with the "we have billions" are just not seeing it because they dont need to do that anymore and the "I did it so they should have to" type of comments are, well....

    New players should not have any avenue blocked from them. Should everything be given away, of course not - but let's not place blockages in their progression simply because we had them. A city is on that path - I know when we got our first city it was fun - we farmed to afford it and farmed to support it. But the farming was much easier in the past - everyone has to admit that fact.
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  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    you're SO right. i PAY TO PLAY THIS GAME and i DEMAND someone hands me a full set of 300 combined every time i roll a new toon! or else i will quit because this is a GAME I PAY FOR
    Dont talk bull. Saying that you want access to something is not the same as demanding it for free.
    If you are a part of a small or a big org you should have access top what you pay for
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpeline View Post
    If you are a part of a small or a big org you should have access top what you pay for
    you do have access to wahat you pay for. everyone has access to cities. moreso now than ever before since now there's no artificial scarcity (unlimited instanced cities meaning you don't have to wait for an org to sell one if all the plots are full)

    as for the price of renting a city, well see my previous comment about combined sets. having access to something doesn't mean you get it handed to you when you step off noob island.

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