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Thread: City Plot Prices and Upkeep

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinknpinker View Post
    ...if your [sic] willing to grind an hour or so when your [sic] on. IMO alot of ppl are just too lazy to grind even if they have bills to pay...
    Some folks only have an hour, or so, of time to play AO.

    But regardless of how much time it takes to earn enough to cover the city rent, the fact of the matter is that FC is raising the cost of city upkeep. How sensible is it really to punish what remains of your dwindling playerbase by making folks work harder to keep what they already have?

    As for all this talk about 'making' credits, if you're selling stuff to other players, you're not 'making' credits, you're just shuffling it around. If you want to introduce new credits into the game, you better start selling to the kiosks. Anything else is just more laundering of those tainted, farmer-sourced credz.

  2. #62
    Well, my city on RK1 is small size plot, but I can afford large HQ and every building I consider important for me. The monthly fee is 26M. Similar city on test will probably cost me more than 100m/month. I'm not taking such deal unless AI raids are completele redone. Rather I'll rework my chars to live without city benefits.
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  3. #63
    I'm trying not to have a knee jerking reaction to this, I want to calculate the expected prices :
    • Small plot : 5m
    • Small HQ : 15m
    • Notum mine : 10M
    • Grid House : 5M
    • Notum Silo : 10M? (assuming it is reduced)
    • Sauna : Free ?
    • Assuming that the ECM and radar will be free


    That's 40M for what we paid 25M for. If I dare go for a large HQ add 15M more (slot + size).

    So the next day I'm going to pay way more for what I have, or I can drop the grid house and Silo, missing on nano energy and computer literacy (great for my neut sold...).

    The whole system is a challenge here. Back then, a few org mates were pretty motivated and wanted to organize funding but a voice raised against it claiming how bad it is to have the game making you work for your own existence and dropping what you find fun just to meet an arbitrary sink is not enjoyable.

    That player bought the field we have now and I know today that he is right, even more so that we have way less players and the few remaining have jobs and families now. A rent raise punish the remaining playerbase without much justifications.

    My opinion of the matter is slightly different : Rents are a stupid idea to start with. Having each building cost you an arm or require hunting is fun, but having to pay the BILLS in a GAME is horrible. Spending time for your food and roof each month is not playing, no matter how small it is. I'm already paying a subscription and we also have to play to pay a subscription.

    What make it worst is that adding a building is now dangerous, get over what your org mates are willing to play for and you lose it all. I hope at least that the city will only be disabled when missing the bill because that would be the sure way to kill new orgs. Like the game was not a pain in the ass for new players already.

    Dropping the rent and multiplying the pricetags by 10, is already much more fair.

    Edit : Truth here in case anyone miss it
    I want to say that I respect the current team and I believe you are doing a good job. The AI cities was a HUGE design flaw from the start and addressing these flaws is a strategic goal.
    Last edited by Boltgun; Jan 20th, 2013 at 11:37:49.
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  4. #64
    There's some serious lack of empathy in this thread.

    Saying "my rent hasn't changed much therefore there is no problem" completely misses the issue. The same goes for the "I've done the maths, you only need to farm for one hour every single day" posts. Why is it so difficult to see that your personal experience isn't the same as everyone else's?

    There were lots of people working to pay for relatively cheap plots who didn't have the advantage of plenty of org members with plenty of end-game characters and as much time as they wanted to play the game. And now they have to work two or three times as hard to afford what they already had while the the people for whom money wasn't an issue don't notice any difference. Why do people think this is fair?

    With every city being instanced now, are farm orgs such a big issue? If they are, how does it deter them when the bare minimum cost of what they need to raid is still way, way lower than the potential turnover from bots?

    And why do we want to force people into large orgs? That makes so little sense. Having a healthy community generally means promoting lots of smaller groups, not squashing everyone together. Having just a few large orgs would be awful for such obvious reasons.

    And lastly, how on earth does it provide more of a credit sink to encourage people into large orgs and therefore discourage the upkeep of more cities?! This is so backwards! For cities to be a viable credit sink there needs to be more of them, not fewer.
    Advisor of Lumen Orien

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Belph View Post
    When everyone else is paying a higher upkeep, they'll have less to spend. Prices will adjust
    Buyers will be from big orgs that will absorb the upkeep.

    Sellers will be farm orgs out to make a profit. They will raise prices.
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  6. #66
    Interesting thing is that most people complaining complain in the first person. "My city, my rent, I pay, I will not pay".

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    City plot prices and upkeep are listed as a known issue, but the upkeep prices appear consistent with the TL patch notes:

    Our Old outdoor city fit all the above except the tax bldg and notum silo, but we had room for the old market and landing pad. I can't remember anymore how much the plot cost us, it seems like it was more than 250M.

    Using the above rent calculations our rent for the same bldgs after 18.6 would be 70M. This compares to our current rent of just under 22M.

    So our rent for the exact same buildings will be more than three times what it is now? Some thing is very wrong here if the 18.6 Update Notes are correct.

    How can you think it is appropriate to increase our rent three-fold or more for the very same buildings we had before?

    Kinnik
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    That is true, our outdoor city plot would not hold one of the new tax buildings, nor could it hold the re-sized 20x20 large HQ ... we fit the current large HQ just fine. We own 2C in Milky Way if you wanted to confirm our rent is only 22M. We are an old guild dating back to 2003, so we have the credits for the higher rents ... my concern is newer guilds that have to cover 45M rent just to be able to expand later.

    As far as the tax building goes, I doubt we will build it. I can't see paying an extra 15M in rent just to collect 1% of the 3% sales tax. Our members don't use the GMI enough to even cover the rent on just the new Tax bldg.

    Kinnik
    Quote Originally Posted by Rikaria View Post
    if your trying to make peeps leave AO why not make the rent 3X higher. some orgs dont want loads of players as it causes drama my org has 6 members cos we all share the same thing about ao we like our little group and dont realy want others in the org, we will help other none org member but not recrute as we like our private space, the new pricing will mean unless were to farm we will have to get more players. sorry but we dont want that.

    lower rents please
    Quote Originally Posted by Lliers View Post
    I take offense to the idea that small cities are for farming orgs. We have a city. Our current upkeep is 22M/mo. I can easily shop-food 22M/mo of junk by myself to maintain our city. We are a small-ish org, but a "real" org nonetheless.

    We have no org tax. We do not want to burden our members with our city upkeep. Only a few of us care that we have a city, and we take care of the upkeep. In addition to "the basics" that Genele listed above, we also have a sauna, a gank house, grid pad, and whompas for convenience of travel and buffs. By adding the mining building alone to our new plot would more than double our existing rent.

    I want to emphasize that healthy organizations are what keep people engaged in AO. Raising the city upkeep does not correct the AO economy. It just forces out all the smaller orgs and will eventually hurt the player base. I hope that after the merge is completed, FC will reconsider allowing froob orgs once again, as well. Support the formation of orgs is beneficial. Some amount of "org abuse" for the sake of creating farm orgs must be tolerated so that we can have wide variety of orgs for players to choose from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    Interesting thing is that most people complaining complain in the first person. "My city, my rent, I pay, I will not pay".
    There are 4 examples of we, our org, etc. ... and all on the first page ...

    Kinnik

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpynoob View Post
    Interesting thing is that most people complaining complain in the first person. "My city, my rent, I pay, I will not pay".
    I would speculate that most people do not feel entitled to speak for others when expressing their opinions, hence the first person singular. Personally, I would not presume that I speak for others, especially in an online forum. I suppose there could be instances where one person speaks for a few or many, in which case the plural would be appropriate. Otherwise I appreciate people clearly identifying it is there opinion or position rather than implying they represent a multiplicity of others.

  9. #69
    lol at all the people complaining of city prices. of course you all pay almost nothing for your cities.
    These new prices are on par with what all the major org are paying for the their cities now. Upkeep for our guild is 86mil. As said they took an average all you low payers arent the avg, so suck it up.
    Big "T"
    President of Nocturnal Fear

  10. #70
    I don't know what else to say.

    If you are a paid player in a decent org, you won't have to worry about upkeep because the org as a whole can easily take care of it.

    I'm not saying a 2-6man org is not decent, but if you want all the benefits a larger org gets and want it on the cheap... well, it's like the guy with a minimum wage job saying "alright, should I go and buy me a scooter to get to work on time, or a jaguar... oh yeah I can totally afford a jaguar!".

    So far it seems like a SINGLE player from an org MUST cover the cost of upkeep and because that ONE person either does not have the time, or skill to make a few mill... the world is coming to an end.

    Most vets with a few years of experience, have a decent amount of creds, which could easily cover a year (or 10) of upkeep without much effort. I could make in a day enough to cover a 1-3 months of upkeep for a large city (new prices). A few FROOBS could cover the cost of a small city.

    If players are so financially broke... how can they even afford stims? or new nanos? or new armor? upkeep is a minor expense in comparison to a month's worth of expenses for someone who plays regularly.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Thwarn View Post
    lol at all the people complaining of city prices. of course you all pay almost nothing for your cities.
    These new prices are on par with what all the major org are paying for the their cities now. Upkeep for our guild is 86mil. As said they took an average all you low payers arent the avg, so suck it up.
    What?

    The new prices are above almost every plot on RK. Folks are complaining because doubling or tripling the cost for no additional benefit doesn't seem like a good idea, so they (we) are voicing our concerns.

    And if your's is 86m - assuming all buidlings - it will go to 150ish - thats quite an increase; so not sure how you think that is "on par". But I guess FC is looking for more folks like you than like me.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    I don't know what else to say.

    If you are a paid player in a decent org, you won't have to worry about upkeep because the org as a whole can easily take care of it.

    I'm not saying a 2-6man org is not decent, but if you want all the benefits a larger org gets and want it on the cheap... well, it's like the guy with a minimum wage job saying "alright, should I go and buy me a scooter to get to work on time, or a jaguar... oh yeah I can totally afford a jaguar!".

    So far it seems like a SINGLE player from an org MUST cover the cost of upkeep and because that ONE person either does not have the time, or skill to make a few mill... the world is coming to an end.

    Most vets with a few years of experience, have a decent amount of creds, which could easily cover a year (or 10) of upkeep without much effort. I could make in a day enough to cover a 1-3 months of upkeep for a large city (new prices). A few FROOBS could cover the cost of a small city.

    If players are so financially broke... how can they even afford stims? or new nanos? or new armor? upkeep is a minor expense in comparison to a month's worth of expenses for someone who plays regularly.
    We are talking about several issues here. First, those of us with billions will outlast the game; so it really isn't "our" problem for credits, but I do believe it is a mistake on FC's part, so I join in the "please rethink this a bit crowd".

    What about new players? Org cities are not a luxury - and FC treating it like one is very short sighted. Cities are a way to have "virtual home" in the game.

    Tellling people to only play in large (whatever that means) orgs isn't what many want to do - and in my years, there are more smaller(?) orgs than large ones (not talking about plant orgs, whole other issue). I use 15-20 for smaller and >75 for large - players, not toons. Player orgs are for friends; Org Alliances are the combining of orgs to do content. Combining of the alliances to faction is next. This creates a 3-tier approach for toons (Org>Alliance>Faction).

    And remember - what is the NEW source of credits to the game to offset this very significant credit sink. You talk about making enough in a day. Are you talking new creds or trading creds? Thats a significant difference to me - as the former is somewhat controlable, the latter not so much.
    Utopia
    The continued search for an ideal community possessing a perfect socio-politico-legal system.

    “ The first thing a child should learn is how to endure. It is what he will have most need to know. ” — Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  13. #73
    For all of you people that are concerned about paying for your city I have a great suggestion!

    Right before server merge:
    - Go form a new org with a paid toon
    - Purchase an icity plot
    - Place a cheap small hq on the plot

    After server merge
    - Get your voucher
    - Hold onto it because now its worth 500m+ building costs
    - Advertise that you're selling a large city with buildings on whatever the combined server spam bot
    - Find a buyer
    - Build the city and transfer it
    - Profit
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  14. #74
    I think the bot prices are still rising, actually. The effort to raid a city substantially increased after the s10 ICE nerf, and the economy is going to reflect that.


    A billion a day in concrete cushions and agi rifles?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Org cities are not a luxury
    Of course they are, and folks have gotten used to a luxury.

    Having a radio in an automobile is a luxury. To extend the analogy, it's not like org cities are a necessary component, like a steering wheel. Peeps treating cities as such doesn't make them so.
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post
    I think the bot prices are still rising, actually. The effort to raid a city substantially increased after the s10 ICE nerf, and the economy is going to reflect that.

    A billion a day in concrete cushions and agi rifles?
    Oh no, those links are for those who may not know how to make creds. Vets don't need those guides. I can go and get 3 inferno boots and 3 pande rings and put them in GMI and have them sold the same day for a few hundred mill with little effort.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    For all of you people that are concerned about paying for your city I have a great suggestion!

    Right before server merge:
    - Go form a new org with a paid toon
    - Purchase an icity plot
    - Place a cheap small hq on the plot

    After server merge
    - Get your voucher
    - Hold onto it because now its worth 500m+ building costs
    - Advertise that you're selling a large city with buildings on whatever the combined server spam bot
    - Find a buyer
    - Build the city and transfer it
    - Profit
    Sneaky... I like it!
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    Founding member of the Council of Truth Clerical Staff.
    Keep in mind: My posts are my own personal views and thoughts.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    What about new players? Org cities are not a luxury - and FC treating it like one is very short sighted. Cities are a way to have "virtual home" in the game.
    Uh... sorry but an org city, IS a luxury. Just buying the plot without having the best buildings possible is a waste of creds. If there was no merge, you would have to spend hundreds of mills on the best (QL 300) buildings. Right now if you have a little plot, your org will get the best buildings after the merge and a free plot which you don't have to pay for to purchase which I think is sufficient compensation for most orgs. The lack of sauna and 2 of the seasonal buildings from this year is something which COULD be argued for (and we probably would win the argument).

    New orgs made of new players, don't have a city. New orgs made of vets, get a city within a day because they know it's worth the investment and can afford it.

    At least on RK1, I'm yet to hear of an org (of any size) with a few regular players unable to pay upkeep of their city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    And remember - what is the NEW source of credits to the game to offset this very significant credit sink. You talk about making enough in a day. Are you talking new creds or trading creds? Thats a significant difference to me - as the former is somewhat controlable, the latter not so much.
    I know for a fact, that right now there are HUNDREDS of billions in the game. There is no need for a "new" source of creds. Earlier today, I went and got 3 lava boots and 3 pande rings with little effort, actually other people got theirs when we killed Tchu. Right there is a small example, with killing one RK spawned boss, there was a few hundred mill worth of items added to the game. And that was just me and 3 guys (not counting the people who showed up after it was announced on Dnet).

    If this is such a serious problem. Have the leader of each org negatively affected post in this thread, with the name of their org and create a virtual "petition" for this to be changed.
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  19. #79
    The new prices are too expensive for my taste. While it's manageable for a nicely populated org (like the one I'm in), smaller orgs would suffer and if I were in such a smaller group I would be greatly turned off by the added chores. After all, it's supposed to be a game !

    I'd also like to comment on the dev statement "we want to funnel people into bigger orgs".
    This is such an APPALLING statement in my opinion. Bring back Silirrion !
    No further significant work is expected to be done on this project going forward.

  20. #80
    The argument has gone down a totally irrelevant route here. It doesn't matter at all whether cities are a luxury or if people who worked for them feel entitled to them. This doesn't address the issue.

    Aside from this being an unfair cost change that disproportionately affects poorer and smaller orgs, whilst having little to no effect on richer, larger orgs, the practical problem is that this decision will have two effects:

    1) People abandon small orgs in favour of large orgs (as intended). This means that there will be fewer cities overall being paid for. The cities that will remain a credit sink will be mainly the large ones, for which the cost has not changed. The credit sink of city rent will be reduced instead of increased as intended.

    2) Faced with the prospect of suddenly having to do 3 times the busy-work, just to pay for something they already have, people are more likely to leave the game, again reducing the number of cities as well as the population.

    So it doesn't make any practical difference whether cities are a luxury or not. IMO they ARE a luxury... Just like everything else in a video game! It's bizarre to single them out over any other item and has nothing to do with the issues people have raised.
    Advisor of Lumen Orien

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