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Thread: City Plot Prices and Upkeep

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post
    A billion a day in concrete cushions and agi rifles?
    try this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw9G6gSg8BY
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  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    After all, it's supposed to be a game !
    So? With that logic we should just not have credits or XP.
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  3. #83
    Equilibriums city will go from 44m to 115m, Equilizers will go from 35m to 95m, Eq7 from 114 to 135m. So.. from 193m to 345m and NO grid exits.. yayyyyy!

    The population is smaller than ever and more tired than ever waiting for things to actually happen after years of stalling and excuses, orgs are deslotate, empty and quiet, and now you tell us you are doubling the rent AND taking away the grid exits!

    Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is a bad joke.


    You want us to live in bigger orgs? Fine, I agree. But why not try using a carrot instead of the stick?
    There are many ideas of how to make it more appealing to be in a bigger org. A shared org bank is one that we have asked for for years, but there are many others. Raising city rent is proof of a complete lack of imagination.

    Sorry but this is a terrible idea from my perspective. Personally I think you will completely alienate a very large group in AO. Namely the casual players who do like to live in small orgs. Maybe these guys could just as well play a single player game, but as long as they pay their subscription fees they have their place in the game.

    Can you afford to lose their subs?
    Last edited by Noobius76; Jan 21st, 2013 at 14:30:27.

  4. #84
    Under these circumstances and with a lot of members who just show up occasionly, as their lifes have changed a lot during the last years, I fear I have to give up on "my org" that was founded 2001 finally.
    I just can't afford 2 cities all by myself with the new upkeeps, and I use most of my gametime to play with others and not farm phats to sell them.
    I wonder how many other org presidents have to make that decision.
    It surely kills some of the diversity in AO... I remember more prof-only orgs like The Dojo (which was always bound with a sister org, Friends of the Dojo for all non-MA profs) that seem to be all dead and gone already.

    Currently, each org owns a iCity plot which is somewhere around 40-50m upkeep each. Reading up on the new amounts of upkeep, it's impossible for me to raise that on my own.

    I consider myself a vet with having my main account since 2002 and got like half a dozen 220's, never been a pro at making the big money though. I farm or camp the equipment for my toons rather than farm the creds and buy them, makes me feel more like I accomplished something.

    Is it really the intended future for players to herd up in huge cluster orgs?
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Uh... sorry but an org city, IS a luxury. Just buying the plot without having the best buildings possible is a waste of creds. If there was no merge, you would have to spend hundreds of mills on the best (QL 300) buildings. Right now if you have a little plot, your org will get the best buildings after the merge and a free plot which you don't have to pay for to purchase which I think is sufficient compensation for most orgs. The lack of sauna and 2 of the seasonal buildings from this year is something which COULD be argued for (and we probably would win the argument).

    New orgs made of new players, don't have a city. New orgs made of vets, get a city within a day because they know it's worth the investment and can afford it.

    At least on RK1, I'm yet to hear of an org (of any size) with a few regular players unable to pay upkeep of their city.



    I know for a fact, that right now there are HUNDREDS of billions in the game. There is no need for a "new" source of creds. Earlier today, I went and got 3 lava boots and 3 pande rings with little effort, actually other people got theirs when we killed Tchu. Right there is a small example, with killing one RK spawned boss, there was a few hundred mill worth of items added to the game. And that was just me and 3 guys (not counting the people who showed up after it was announced on Dnet).

    If this is such a serious problem. Have the leader of each org negatively affected post in this thread, with the name of their org and create a virtual "petition" for this to be changed.
    So having access to the game we all pay for is a luxury? I don't think so ...

    Selling inferno boots to other players does not add any credits to the game, it just recycles ones that are already here.

    There is a Sauna in the org-leader pack ... have you not been on TL yet? Or are you speaking from memory as your accounts are not active anymore because you were waiting for the new engine?

    Kinnik

  6. #86
    ITT : people telling others how they should play the game they pay for.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorathon View Post
    Of course they are, and folks have gotten used to a luxury.

    Having a radio in an automobile is a luxury. To extend the analogy, it's not like org cities are a necessary component, like a steering wheel. Peeps treating cities as such doesn't make them so.
    This is just nonsense from a realistic point of view.

    To be able to experience the whole game and all it has to offer, cities are needed (and should be) as part of that experience. No one is asking for handouts, but folks are pointing out the changes being made and their dislike of those changes.

    Keep in mind attracting and keeping new players - if we don't, the game will die anyway. Much of what is being said sounds an awful lot like elitism to me...
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  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Uh... sorry but an org city, IS a luxury. Just buying the plot without having the best buildings possible is a waste of creds. If there was no merge, you would have to spend hundreds of mills on the best (QL 300) buildings. Right now if you have a little plot, your org will get the best buildings after the merge and a free plot which you don't have to pay for to purchase which I think is sufficient compensation for most orgs. The lack of sauna and 2 of the seasonal buildings from this year is something which COULD be argued for (and we probably would win the argument).

    New orgs made of new players, don't have a city. New orgs made of vets, get a city within a day because they know it's worth the investment and can afford it.

    At least on RK1, I'm yet to hear of an org (of any size) with a few regular players unable to pay upkeep of their city.



    I know for a fact, that right now there are HUNDREDS of billions in the game. There is no need for a "new" source of creds. Earlier today, I went and got 3 lava boots and 3 pande rings with little effort, actually other people got theirs when we killed Tchu. Right there is a small example, with killing one RK spawned boss, there was a few hundred mill worth of items added to the game. And that was just me and 3 guys (not counting the people who showed up after it was announced on Dnet).

    If this is such a serious problem. Have the leader of each org negatively affected post in this thread, with the name of their org and create a virtual "petition" for this to be changed.
    First off - never said the cost of the city is the issue. Its the monthly rent that is the issue. Calling a part of the game - which even you note is worth it - a luxury is where I will strongly disagree. But hey, to each his own.

    Next - lets talk about those hundreds of billiions. Most are tied up with the vets - you would agree? Next, many (many, many) are on toons that are frozen/banned/forgotten/etc. These credits are not in circulation so they really dont affect the economy. Farming items to sell is a transfer of credits and at some point - the credit sinks will create credit shortage. There have been several threads about people opinions - no need to rehash that here.

    I dont have to have anyone list anything for you or anyone else - I dont believe that this increase of cost for monthly maintenace is a good decsion. I will say it again, my concern is new players and the ability of them to be able to enjoy all the game has to offer (and you know, stay awhile).
    Utopia
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    “ The first thing a child should learn is how to endure. It is what he will have most need to know. ” — Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Boltgun View Post
    I'm trying not to have a knee jerking reaction to this, I want to calculate the expected prices :
    • Small plot : 5m
    • Small HQ : 15m
    • Notum mine : 10M
    • Grid House : 5M
    • Notum Silo : 10M? (assuming it is reduced)
    • Sauna : Free ?
    • Assuming that the ECM and radar will be free


    That's 40M for what we paid 25M for. If I dare go for a large HQ add 15M more (slot + size).

    .....
    Fiddled a bit on Test with a small city plot. You can't use the Notum Mining Operations and Notum Silo buildings in a small city since there's no place where you can place it.

    The only space big enough to fit them is the one available for the ECM tower.

    And yes, no space for large HQ, Tax house, Sky bar, Sidewalk cafe or Swimming pool as well - they don't fit anywhere.

    Ergo, FC was right when they said it will be for 1-man orgs - aka farmers. Upkeep is no different than what farmers are currently paying for their Serenity Island cities today. Just a few less advantages with new plot.
    Last edited by Khlin; Jan 21st, 2013 at 19:36:15.
    ----------------------------
    Showing why AO forum is not to be trusted - on S10 inflation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    Multiple players in my org can make 200-300m maybe even 400m depending on lucky drops in 2 hours of farming the place. If you cannot see this as being an issue, then I don't know how to help you.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    have you not been on TL yet? Or are you speaking from memory as your accounts are not active anymore because you were waiting for the new engine?

    Kinnik

    yes he posted a video of the new cities on testlive while not being active anymore and having not been on testlive...

  11. #91
    /sarcasm

    No one should have the right to have fun in this game unless they belong in a big org or have playd for many years.

    /sarcasm off

    Most of the time big orgs does more harm than good to a game. "want a tower? Join my org or get lost" "want to do city raids? Join my org or get lost"

    It stops people that play from time to time or new players to get into the game.
    I remember when I started. A few players that meet on noob island made an org and stayed together for a few fdays. it was fun.
    I really hope FC don't force players to go into big orgs to have the fun we all pay for even if I know that elitist thinks that the money they pay is in some way more worth than my humble payment. I rather stay in a small org with close friends than joining a big org just to get the benefits I payed for.
    Aparently getting what you pay for is a luxury nowdays according to some
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy View Post
    yes he posted a video of the new cities on testlive while not being active anymore and having not been on testlive...
    Sorry, I see now he posted video in a different thread, I missed that ...

    However, the Sauna is in the org-leader voucher pack. I guess you agree with my other two comments as you didn't question them?

    Kinnik

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Noobius76 View Post
    Equilibriums city will go from 44m to 115m, Equilizers will go from 35m to 95m, Eq7 from 114 to 135m. So.. from 193m to 345m and NO grid exits.. yayyyyy!

    The population is smaller than ever and more tired than ever waiting for things to actually happen after years of stalling and excuses, orgs are deslotate, empty and quiet, and now you tell us you are doubling the rent AND taking away the grid exits!

    Are you kidding me? I'm sorry, but this is a bad joke.


    You want us to live in bigger orgs? Fine, I agree. But why not try using a carrot instead of the stick?
    There are many ideas of how to make it more appealing to be in a bigger org. A shared org bank is one that we have asked for for years, but there are many others. Raising city rent is proof of a complete lack of imagination.

    Sorry but this is a terrible idea from my perspective. Personally I think you will completely alienate a very large group in AO. Namely the casual players who do like to live in small orgs. Maybe these guys could just as well play a single player game, but as long as they pay their subscription fees they have their place in the game.

    Can you afford to lose their subs?
    The EQ orgs from what I know, are split into different groups to have the maximum possible tower sites to take from omnis, they are mainly PvP orgs. EQ is well known for going out there and beating omnis to the ground that is clear. Also... they are not poor because twinking can go into the hundreds of mill, if not a few bill for a badass PvP twink.

    My org in comparison to EQ, is small. We can afford the new prices and I'm failry sure they can as well.

    Not sure where you're going with "grid exits". At TL the city grid exit exists, it going to your city and the grid house @ your city sends you straight to the grid because they've upgraded the building.

    If you mean the hundreds of whompahs from the player cities which were shortcuts, well with Fgrid, Beacon Warp, all the old whompahs and regular grid terminals... we should still be good.
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  14. #94
    Getting rid of all that in field Whompahs will imho bring back Fixer and Engi taxi services. I think that actually is a good thing.
    It worked and was fun before we got the cities.
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  15. #95
    I willnot copy the post pertaining to credits, but there are two aspects of the credit issues. Most of which pertain to new players and the cost of the new cities.

    There are only 3 ways to get credits into the game:
    Mission Rewards
    Selling loot
    Looting credits from RK mobs.

    All the rest of the activities to "make" credits are simply moving them from toon to toon. That is the problem with the rents. Realistically you cannot kill and loot enough in the game to cover the cost of a new city. You cannot add that many credits to the game in a month unless that is all you do (for a large city at least) or have massive numbers of people doing similar activites. As a result the city rents create a massive credit drain. (They always have, but it was masked by the toons actually bringing credits into the game, largely free accoutns doing RK missions and dynas.

    You may be successful at finding or making something so that you can get a credti transer (more likely at higher level or for specific items, but that does not create credits. It only moves them from the those generating credits or from toons that received them via transfer.

    So all the high cost does is reinforce that cities are only for high level toons who have already done the killing and looting for credits and are in the business of transferring credits from toon to toon. The massive imbalance eventually will pull those credits out of the game, or more likely just cause more people to realize that the game is not worth the time involved and find a better game.
    Last edited by Deemure; Jan 21st, 2013 at 22:54:30.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Deemure View Post
    I willnot copy the post, but there are two aspects of the credit issues. Most of which pertain to new players and the cost of the new cities.

    There are only 3 ways to get credits into the game:
    Mission Rewards
    Selling loot
    Looting credits from RK mobs.

    All the rest of the activities to "make" credits are simply moving them from toon to toon. That is the problem with the rents.
    Mission Rewards have never been great, they were mostly mean for xp rather than creds. Yes, on occasion you'd find a yalm or other NODROP items which was expensive. However with the introduction of 3rd party software (mission buddy and clicksaver) you could go and make creds by "farming" valuable items. This sort of income was the norm, about 7 years ago. Those who do this now, mostly do it to save some creds and get the items themselves rather than spend millions on nanos/items.

    Selling loot has always been one of the main ways to make income, including selling lootrights. That has been imho one of the real cred sinks, particularly referring to NODROP items which cannot be traded once sold (DB Armor, Xan Symbs, LoX items, Ice Golem Molar, DB3 drops, Deadloch drops, Albtraum Rings, etc), or weird looking nanos which once uploaded ofc can't be traded either (and they can go for 500-700M each).

    Looking corpses... never made anyone any real amount of credits unless you were lvl 1-10 and broke.

    A "credit transfer" between characters is common, actually now with the new GMI things are easier to handle since it has a 4bill limit so now a paid toon can hold as much creds as a whole org.

    Let's say someone farmed an expensive NODROP item, and another player buys it for 500M. That half a bill, is gone, it won't recycle back because the buyer will NEVER be able to resell it. I guess from your pov, the buyer will go and spend it elsewhere and the 500M remains in circulation therefore its a "transfer". However from the buyer pov, he go an item he needed and the creds are an investment which will always stay with him... not transferred.

    The old saying "if there is a will, there is a way" does apply here. Any org that WANTS to have a large city with benefits, will have it and maintain it.

    Personally I've spent billions for years to make sure my org had a city with the best possible benefits because as a leader (at one time I was leading 2 orgs, both with cities), I felt it was my responsibility to make that happen. Orgmates have contributed ofc, in the hundreds of mill, for upkeep.

    If you are resourceful, you will have a large city. If you have active orgmates, you will have a large city. If you have friends in-game, you will have a large city.

    Also... the current prices and upkeep in TL may not reflect what will happen to live. Let's try to be positive.
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  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    Looking corpses... never made anyone any real amount of credits unless you were lvl 1-10 and broke.
    Of course not, but that and rewards/bounty/shopfood = the only way credits are produced into the gameworld. IE, the credits you xfered via selling a weird nano or a lootright, all of if comes from what was mentioned.
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  18. #98
    Yes,

    I think Deemure's point was that after awhile all the "stored" or "old" credits will get used up for rents and other credit sinks like the fees/taxes on GMI.

    The total money supply in the AO economy will be noticeably reduced because of these credit sinks. I assume that is FC's intention, but care should be taken not to over do it.

    The only way to add credits to the economy are those Deemure & Leetlover mentioned above. Any other ways to make money for your org is just moving credits between toons ... i.e. buying/selling between players. Credits made selling something to a player does not add credits to the economy.

    Kinnik

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Windguaerd View Post
    ..

    Selling loot has always been one of the main ways to make income, including selling lootrights. That has been imho one of the real cred sinks, particularly referring to NODROP items which cannot be traded once sold (DB Armor, Xan Symbs, LoX items, Ice Golem Molar, DB3 drops, Deadloch drops, Albtraum Rings, etc), or weird looking nanos which once uploaded ofc can't be traded either (and they can go for 500-700M each)...
    This is exactly NOT a credit sink to the game. A credit sink removes the credits from circulation (gone forever). The fact the buyer no longer has them is not relavent - the credits still "exist" to be used by the seller, he then buys, and so on...

    Trades between players is also tenious at best, because it requires two things 1) the farmer to find valuable loot and 2) a buyer to pay for it. Those are not things that can be counted on each month to produce rent credits.

    This is exactly why Deemure's post is accurate. There are a couple more, like bounties are still in s42 that "create" credits, but suffice to say that the increase of "newly created credits" is not on par with the new monthly rent amounts (as a credit sink).
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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Deemure View Post
    There are only 3 ways to get credits into the game:
    Mission Rewards
    Selling loot
    Looting credits from RK mobs.
    There's also the bounties that drop from APF 13/28/35/42.
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