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Thread: Remove ubt-line from doc and give to ma and crat?

  1. #1

    Remove ubt-line from doc and give to ma and crat?

    This is due to situation with teams, nor not getting teams that is.

    Doc will almost always be desired for a team, and the current crat-debuffs are ridicolously OP imo, so how about removing crat-debuff and let crat + MA have a more modest ubt-debuff that lands equally as good as crat-debuffs?

    Sorry for bad english.

    Wouldn't think it would be very hard for a doctor in solo nor teams.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  2. #2
    You would move it to MP's if anywhere...and no thanks.

  3. #3
    while it would make a doctors play style a bit harder in solo situations, this is really not a bad idea. back in the day when it actually took a sizable raid force to do pande runs, it would suck if there was only 1 or 2 docs, especially around SS. trying to keep the tank alive and ubt everything at the same time solo was quite a challenge, and having agents there to help debuff stuff was a god send.


    but I am speaking from a past perspective and these sort of things are fairly easy now with the level of gear we have. as a counter proposal and in line with gatester, i'd say move half the ubt line to MPs, give malaise to NT's and in doing so double the effects of the red tape line to bring it up to nearly where crats were before, and let docs keep what i consider the secondary ubt line, the ones that break on hit. it brings new life and desirability to MPs and NTs, lets crats stay a bit OP, and lets docs keep a certain amount of crowd control when they are solo.
    Former Assistant Director of Pack of Noobs

    Fake Friday with Means, and it worked!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdogg421 View Post
    back in the day when it actually took a sizable raid force to do pande runs, it would suck if there was only 1 or 2 docs,

    but I am speaking from a past perspective and these sort of things are fairly easy now with the level of gear we have.
    no. this is not what was and is happening.
    "sizable raid force" was never required, it just happened because there was possibility to win Burden at the end of the raid that happened once a day. Loot was rare, and that brought people, not the "hardiness" of raid.

    and gear is not all that different for tanks and healer. tank still mongos and healer keeps it up. iCH still is not needed for single healing pande. neither is any new enfo stuff.

    but what comes to topic, id rather see something direct approach to debuffing.. like adding perk to keepers that adds 20% to all recharges. burst, auto-attack, nanos etc.
    Make it first tier perk too without scaling so it would be same effect with all content and not pitifully weak at start and rediculously op at end game.
    Last edited by Otansaanpas; Jan 19th, 2013 at 17:42:46.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
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  5. #5
    i dont think ma's need to be able to debuff upto 10k inits...

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    You would move it to MP's if anywhere...and no thanks.
    My first thought also was "give it to MPs and take it from Crats."
    The Fine Arts:
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by sultryvoltron View Post
    My first thought also was "give it to MPs and take it from Crats."
    Give MPs that nanodmg proc they should've always gotten, too.

    (Yes I have a crat. I think she'd be fine without it.)
    :E

  8. #8
    Bureaucrats getting less init debuffs on malaise? Yes.

    Lowering martial artist, engineer, bureaucrat, and shade PvM damage, and maybe giving them some other useful PvM something in return? Yes.

    Lowering the amount of init debuffs from doctor init debuff procs (Especially anatomic blight, maybe even reduce it significantly and make it unbreakable in return)? Yes.

    Removing uncontrollable body tremors line from doctor? Not a chance.
    "Remember me? The one you got your technique from?"
    The worst possible response you could give when asked for proof of your statements.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Otansaanpas View Post
    no. this is not what was and is happening.
    "sizable raid force" was never required, it just happened because there was possibility to win Burden at the end of the raid that happened once a day. Loot was rare, and that brought people, not the "hardiness" of raid.

    and gear is not all that different for tanks and healer. tank still mongos and healer keeps it up. iCH still is not needed for single healing pande. neither is any new enfo stuff.

    but what comes to topic, id rather see something direct approach to debuffing.. like adding perk to keepers that adds 20% to all recharges. burst, auto-attack, nanos etc.
    Make it first tier perk too without scaling so it would be same effect with all content and not pitifully weak at start and rediculously op at end game.
    that's exactly what was happening actually, raids getting wiped because lack of dd, docs not being able to keep up in healing, ect. you can try and call me a liar but i did enough raids in beastchat to know that you needed a good raid force before LE came around. most enfs didn't have a ton of defense and docs didn't have ICH. roll back the server to 04/05 and i'd like to see you solo heal a pande raid and keep it alive with a single team. it's not gonna happen. it won't happen with 2 teams. 3 teams of solid dd and a good tank and you might be able to accomplish that.

    and before you pull up that crap about people comming because of loot and that would mean there is always more then 1 doc, there are plenty of times that didn't happen. hell, i can remember a raid that we spent 6 hours on and never finished because the tank ended up having to go.
    Former Assistant Director of Pack of Noobs

    Fake Friday with Means, and it worked!

  10. #10
    There were LOTS of raids where there weren't enough doctors and sometimes, not even a good enfo. Also remember that soldiers were important and a trader was nice for mezzing pinks as well. How soon people forget when content in AO was actually hard.

    And no, I don't think distributing OPed toolsets to UPed professions is a good idea.
    Awwww muffin, need a tissue?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdogg421 View Post
    that's exactly what was happening actually, raids getting wiped because lack of dd, docs not being able to keep up in healing, ect. you can try and call me a liar but i did enough raids in beastchat to know that you needed a good raid force before LE came around. most enfs didn't have a ton of defense and docs didn't have ICH. roll back the server to 04/05 and i'd like to see you solo heal a pande raid and keep it alive with a single team. it's not gonna happen. it won't happen with 2 teams. 3 teams of solid dd and a good tank and you might be able to accomplish that.

    and before you pull up that crap about people comming because of loot and that would mean there is always more then 1 doc, there are plenty of times that didn't happen. hell, i can remember a raid that we spent 6 hours on and never finished because the tank ended up having to go.
    yes, when tank runs through half playfiled to get all adds, you do need more healing and support.
    And more docs were required because if that only doctor died, raid was over.
    and more adds ment always aggro-issues with tank and backup tanks and dps might require few heals.

    if pulls were better planned/executed, 2 teams would have had relatively easy oldschool pande-raid.
    sure, gear plays a role, but not that big really.

    and loot was not the motivator? why would you go through such hell if it werent for loot?
    Last edited by Otansaanpas; Jan 20th, 2013 at 01:02:26.
    You hit Tarasque with nanobots for 18280 points of melee damage.
    First shade with Blades of Boltar
    ---
    How much is enough?
    Member of Halinallet!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Otansaanpas View Post
    no. this is not what was and is happening.
    "sizable raid force" was never required, it just happened because there was possibility to win Burden at the end of the raid that happened once a day. Loot was rare, and that brought people, not the "hardiness" of raid.

    and gear is not all that different for tanks and healer. tank still mongos and healer keeps it up. iCH still is not needed for single healing pande. neither is any new enfo stuff.

    but what comes to topic, id rather see something direct approach to debuffing.. like adding perk to keepers that adds 20% to all recharges. burst, auto-attack, nanos etc.
    Make it first tier perk too without scaling so it would be same effect with all content and not pitifully weak at start and rediculously op at end game.
    Seems your memory is not long enough to remember all those 60+ raid wipes on pande...
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

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  13. #13
    Delete tapes.
    Move UBT to MP.
    Move reflects from Soldier to Keeper.
    Delete damage aura from Soldier.
    Move Imalice from Enforcer to Soldier.

    Tiny changes that will reduce the holy quadrilogy of Sol/Enf/Doc/Crat
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
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  14. #14
    Wtb more hard stuff after the engine is out. Ive supressed all the wipes we had before the first ever beast kill. But it is a very fond memory. Just like ragnaros heroic is.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Delete tapes.
    Move UBT to MP.
    Move reflects from Soldier to Keeper.
    Delete damage aura from Soldier.
    Move Imalice from Enforcer to Soldier.

    Tiny changes that will reduce the holy quadrilogy of Sol/Enf/Doc/Crat
    But that would just transfer the quadrilogy to different Professions...Nothing in reality would actually change...People would just require those profs instead...
    One profession to RoO them all, one profession to proc stun them, one profession to calm them all and in the darkness Exp perk them!

    Crataiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution - 3rd AI 30 'Crat on RK 1 Setup
    Calms 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution
    Medicaiken 220/30/70 General - Primal Evolution Setup
    Newen 220/30/70 President - The Galactic Milieu
    Mettagirl 220/20/** General - Primal Evolution
    Krataiken 150/18/40 General - Primal Evolution Setup

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Delete tapes.
    Move UBT to MP.
    Move reflects from Soldier to Keeper.
    Delete damage aura from Soldier.
    Move Imalice from Enforcer to Soldier.

    Tiny changes that will reduce the holy quadrilogy of Sol/Enf/Doc/Crat
    Dunno, those changes seem kind of strange overall. Removing the taunt from enforcers, which is the only thing they have to substitute for damage and hold aggro over shades or NTs, removing reflects from soldier, which is what they need to survive without AMS/TMS in most situations, and moving UBT to MP's seems like a good idea but it just means they have an init debuff that works in only some raids so a crat would still be more realiable to have around. Then you have the impact these changes have on PVP.


    Traders could have LMN instead of crats, traders would always be useful and crats would still always be useful.

    Adventurers could have stronger team healing than doctors and maybe improve the auras and morphs further to supplement particular roles for teammates.

    Agents could be doing damage equivalent to shades and NTs in PVE since they will never substitute for another profession.

    MP's could be allowed to stack their damage debuffs and make them last a bit longer and NSD could work on more mobs and bosses.

    Fixers could use something which supplements their team's damage or weakens targets.

    MA's need either slightly more damage or to have their tanking toolset expanded to act as an "evade" tank, I used mine this way and it worked rather well.

    Keepers are fine, people just do not know how to use them.

    Engineers are fine, people still think soldiers are better for support roles for some reason.

    Shades are fine, they can tank while doing 350k+ DPM while also debuffing a mob.

    NT's are fine, they can tank while doing 300k+ DPM while also debuffing mobs and supporting their team.

    Enforcers need a nerf to mongo in the form of a lockout on chain casting it.

    Soldiers could use slightly more taunting, around 15k taunts maybe so they do not have to sacrifice tanking for damage.

    Doctors need either weaker team heals or a harder time healing others while maintaining strong self healing.

    Crats just need less functionality, which removing LMN would do I think.


    Making the nano regain profs (trader, NT, MP) actually necessary for casters would help as well.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Fixers could use something which supplements their team's damage or weakens targets.
    This?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aiken View Post
    But that would just transfer the quadrilogy to different Professions...Nothing in reality would actually change...People would just require those profs instead...

    Soldier would still be the best single target tank.

    Enforcer would still be the best multiple target tank.

    Doctor would still be the best healer.

    Crat would still be the best CCer/DDer/Aura Totem/XP totem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Dunno, those changes seem kind of strange overall. Removing the taunt from enforcers, which is the only thing they have to substitute for damage and hold aggro over shades or NTs, removing reflects from soldier, which is what they need to survive without AMS/TMS in most situations, and moving UBT to MP's seems like a good idea but it just means they have an init debuff that works in only some raids so a crat would still be more realiable to have around. Then you have the impact these changes have on PVP.
    Tapes would be deleted from Crat. Enf retains mongo. Soldier retains the ability to recieve reflect aura from Keeper or Engineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    Keepers are fine, people just do not know how to use them.

    Engineers are fine, people still think soldiers are better for support roles for some reason.

    Soldiers could use slightly more taunting, around 15k taunts maybe so they do not have to sacrifice tanking for damage.

    Crats just need less functionality, which removing LMN would do I think.
    My changes address these problems.
    Last edited by MassDebater; Jan 21st, 2013 at 05:18:19.
    This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it

    Quote Originally Posted by Marinegent View Post
    Soldier reflects just flat out need to be much stronger all the time (70%~ at level 220 at all times...)
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowgod View Post
    the day our pets last forever, like yours, is the day your reqs will be lowered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    To be fair, you are lucky the mods are as forgiving as they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obtena View Post
    your an idiot



  19. #19
    To everybody wanting remove iMalice from Enforcer. Artillery Commander is immune to mongo :3
    I would love see UBT on MPs xD But I think that improve our DD debuffs is a better aproach
    Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
    Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
    Proud veteran of Spartans

    To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
    Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.

    Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
    Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MassDebater View Post
    Tapes would be deleted from Crat. Enf retains mongo. Soldier retains the ability to recieve reflect aura from Keeper or Engineer.

    My changes address these problems.
    An enforcer cannot keep aggro from my shade using mongo alone, and forcing enforcers to spam an AOE taunt again is really annoying when CC professions are actually trying to do their job. Enforcers need single taunts unless FC is actually going to let them do enough damage to hold aggro without them.

    Soldiers without reflects = worthless in PVE and constantly dead in PVP.

    Your changes address the problems, yes, but they end up creating new ones.

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