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Thread: Between Tro/peh. Amep/OH

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dritst View Post
    .. and i still wondering how you are doing vs 3+ pvper when you solo ^^
    The same as you do now and later with these items: We are dying.

    But atleast we are able to take 1 of such a group to decon too. Things could be worse.
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Dumonde
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    .. :: Punk :: ..

  2. #22
    Pretty decent info in this thread regardless of the fight between onehander and tro/peh setup, I've been thinking of finally going for tro/peh myself, I did the AMEP/Oh setup and I couldn't stand the constant IP and perk sink for it to mess with my PVE'ing. But to each their own taste, seems a few and I've seen a few good engi's over the years make use of the AMEP/Oh setup just fine. I plan on using that setup for my TL5 engi.



  3. #23
    Well AMEP/OH isn't bad for pvm because you can swap in Lust and the DD from SM10 sure doesn't hurt.

    That said, you aren't exactly poor DD when you swap out AS scope for Off hud in Tro/Peh.

    The other nice benefit being you can take sold damage aura and be 1/1 after it wipes your init buff.
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  4. #24
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumonde View Post
    I simply dont like the fact of having only ~2,8k AR. For example, Enforcer like Forz are not perkable with this AR. And then, the engi wont win.
    For PM perk line there is no difference between AMEP and lolpistol setup as perk AR is based on pistol skill anyway and ai perks from conc are likely to get evaded because high NR on enfs. At last they are on my engi (3070 ar atm without 12m).

    I dont believe in 10k aimedshots coming from OH, no way Im using it on my 220 engi and with all the goodies including ai 30, le 70 and acdc except 3 pieces of CC (i use jathos helmet, chest and ofab gloves) and rhand implant (i still use symbiant) its more in 1-2k department with occasional 4-5k so rare its even hard to notice. Looking at dmg dumper i fire up from time to time there are active battlestations without a single AS over 3k dmg for me and im still not sure ifthis 3k dmg it AS or just pet crit A bit more than 147 AS difference (no idea how high is the trickledown difference) wont make it suddenly do 3x more dmg, at last it doesnt once there is an agent inside BS and i get TTS.

    Also i think that 17k hp is way to low even in mass pvp with doc buffs as im still alphakillable with 21k self (atrox).

    It could be good when people were actually low hp but they are not anymore. Even fixers and NTs go max hp nowadays and OH just sucks balls vs anything. Id love to use lolpistol but cant buy it so im still stuck with craphander.

    Shotgun perks dont make much of a difference anyway. MAs, fixers and shades till evade it with cib up or whatever and vs everyone else id still take resonable AS over 1-2k dmg perks anyday.

    AI perks on the other hand are nice but still im not sure if a bit more reliable AS every 11s is worth trading.

    /Rychu

  5. #25
    I was diehard on AMEP+onehander for a long time and I beat several other engies using that setup (shotty perks ftw I guess?)...

    But after switching to troaler/pew'her it's a by far a more reliable setup for nearly every encounter.

    The biggest difference is troaler + AS eye/AS Rwrist and a 275 scope. These items, stacking on every bit of AS skill I can get makes the troaler a beast. It'll cap moderately reliably on many profs, including those ones you really need it to like enf, advy and doctor.

    The other obvious major benefit is that it's so much more useful at war/ mobile PVP with a significantly better range for all specials.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciex View Post
    A bit more than 147 AS difference (no idea how high is the trickledown difference) wont make it suddenly do 3x more dmg, at last it doesnt once there is an agent inside BS and i get TTS.

    Also i think that 17k hp is way to low even in mass pvp with doc buffs as im still alphakillable with 21k self (atrox).
    /Rychu
    And thats where you are on the wrong track.

    In fact, the highest (for us reachable) AS template starts at 1750 (or 52? cant recall exactly). So, 147 can make a decent difference there. Tried and tested this countless of times - my doc vs. Urteil and he gave me more capped AS in a row then you can imagine. More then any other Engi did with Tro/peh oder AMEP/OH with below that AS template.

    Greetings,
    Dumonde
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Dumonde
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Rank1
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Maxwell
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Zidane
    ..:: 220|28|66|e|::.. Isaak
    ..:: 215|20|56|e|::.. Rumb0
    ..:: 215|15|29|e|::.. Tiesto-1
    ..:: 212|17|46|e|::.. Pulsedriver
    ..:: 210|08|09|e|::.. Unseen


    .. :: Punk :: ..

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumonde View Post
    And thats where you are on the wrong track.

    In fact, the highest (for us reachable) AS template starts at 1750 (or 52? cant recall exactly). So, 147 can make a decent difference there. Tried and tested this countless of times - my doc vs. Urteil and he gave me more capped AS in a row then you can imagine. More then any other Engi did with Tro/peh oder AMEP/OH with below that AS template.

    Greetings,
    Dumonde
    /confirmed.

    I roll with as high a possible AS rating while still being functional and it's the most reliable kill mechanism at an engi's disposal.

    *using Tro, not OH though.

    I haven't used OH since swapping to a higher dedication AS skill.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Jul 18th, 2013 at 06:04:10. Reason: weap clarification

  8. #28
    It's always funny to read the back and forth about whether an end-game expansion weapon is better than a 12 year old rollable froob weapon.
    Waiting for a cure.

  9. #29

  10. #30
    +1 to Dumonde. As I told befor Troaller was relised on life server This weapon were not desined for an engineer. AS from onhander aren't stable, but difference in minimal AS from Troaller and Onehander is about 500 points (1400 vs 900(in HP setup minimal AS is smaller)). If you hit with multiplier 2, it will be 1800 vs 2800. I agree that is the difference, but troaller doesn't have crit. Critical AS from onehander is awesome ((121+584)*3.6+add dmg)*multiplier=(2538+add dmg)*multiplier (my minimal critical AS is about 6k (minimal multiplier is 2 for my crits), also I have 28% crit setup).

    I didn't change my opinion on troaller. Troaller setup is for beginers or medium equipped engineers who doesn't have RBP, commando set, ELTS, snipers friend, top simbiants/implants and other things that make onehander works better than troaller.
    Nemezyda PvP/DD/Solo PVM/tradeskill engineer.
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  11. #31
    lol at thinking that engies are going to be critting....

    Crit rate on my engi: (missing ACDC)

    9 in scope
    3 in Rshoulder
    5 in sniper friend
    1 base
    = 18% halved in PVP = 9%

    Lets round up to 10%.


    Now, since you're saying "Troaller setup is for beginers or medium equipped engineers" I have to infer that you think onehander is for uber setup engies (since you have the tone of one who thinks his method is superior to others). In this case, lets assume you're working with +1700 Aimed shot skill.

    So, lets break this down:

    at EXACTLY 1000 Aimed shot skill, the chance for 1x multipliers is zero (exactly zero), meaning, you can only have higher than 1x multipliers (2 or more).

    The frequency of 2x multipliers is decreasing rapidly (the rate of frequency depletion with respect to increasing AS skill is y=-0.0006x+1.1028 where y is the frequency and x is the independent variable x. (R squared is 0.9922, thanks to Gatester for this testing)

    Using this knowledge, at 1700 AS skill the frequency of even 2x multiplier hits will be 0.08
    (at 1750 it's 0.05), and just an FYI, the frequency is 0 at 1835ish AS skill.

    What this means, is that reliably, and I mean, 90%+ of the time, you'll be hitting 3 multipliers or above, with only rare occasions where the multiplier is 2 (one is not possible).

    The formula from AOU to calculate damage from a weapon is:
    Base weapon damage x (3,5 + ((attack rating - 1000)x30% / 400) + Add_damage buff

    From AOU: http://www.ao-universe.com/index.php...ficial+skill#3

    Using this to calculate base damage from the Troaler on an Aimed shot (non crit) with 2800 AR I get:

    225*(3.5+((min(MBS=2750,AR=2800)*0.3/400) = 1082 damage

    On the onehander its:

    121*(3.5+((min(MBS=1223,AR=2500)*0.3/400) = 534 damage

    now, your aimed shot multiplier, whatever it is past about 1700 will yield regular 2x multipliers at the VERY minimum.

    The 2x multiplier for Troaler = 1082*2 = 2184 damage
    The 2x multiplier for Onehander = 534*2 = 1068 damage

    Whatever your add damage is doesn't matter in this comparison because it would be added to both weapons.

    Because the multipliers only multiply the base damage of the weapon special, we do not need to know more about that, we only need to look now at the critical AS damage. Then, we can solve the equation for the equality which represents the critical percentage needed for one weapon to be "comparable" to the other in terms of Aimed shot damage.

    Troaler Critical (using the same formula from AOU)

    (225+100)x (3,5 + ((MBS=2750- 1000)x30% / 400)) = 1747

    Onehander Critical

    (121+584)x (3,5 + ((MBS=1223 - 1000)x30% / 400)) = 3114

    Now, to find what crit is needed to, on average, achieve similar damage as the troaler vs an opponent with ZERO crit resist, we do the following:

    Troaler damage = onehander damage*(1-x) + onehander critical *(x)

    Where x is your crit percentage.

    1082=534*(1-x)+3114*(x)

    solving for x:

    1082=534-534x+3114x

    548= 3649x

    x= 548/3649 = 15% crit rate

    which needs to be multiplied by 2 to convert from non-PVP to PVP, equals 30%.

    So you need 30% crit to make onehander do, on AVERAGE, vs ZERO crit resist opponents, the same as the troa'ler.

    This is ONLY for aimed shots, and not for anything else, ie. regulars with lower AR/lower damage.

    The obvious failing here is that troaler owns with normal multipliers, not with crits, therefore, the criticals will still do remarkably well vs evade opponents (crat/MA/shade/fixer) where as onehander will not.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Jul 25th, 2013 at 00:39:35. Reason: removed an extra word

  12. #32
    I hate pure math constructs.

    Go outside, gather your gear and put your ars.es within live duels. The most of you would see how some maths and theoretic constructs are nothing more then maths and theoretic constructs.

    AMEP+OH > Tro/Peh

    Just check my Engis euqipment, its not builded upon crit. But it performs more then pretty good. Thats a thing, all of your silly theroetix doesnt explain
    Last edited by Dumonde; Jul 25th, 2013 at 07:32:21.
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Dumonde
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Rank1
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Maxwell
    ..:: 220|30|70|e|::.. Zidane
    ..:: 220|28|66|e|::.. Isaak
    ..:: 215|20|56|e|::.. Rumb0
    ..:: 215|15|29|e|::.. Tiesto-1
    ..:: 212|17|46|e|::.. Pulsedriver
    ..:: 210|08|09|e|::.. Unseen


    .. :: Punk :: ..

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumonde View Post
    I hate pure math constructs.

    Go outside, gather your gear and put your ars.es within live duels. The most of you would see how some maths and theoretic constructs are nothing more then maths and theoretic constructs.

    AMEP+OH > Tro/Peh

    Just check my Engis euqipment, its not builded upon crit. But it performs more then pretty good. Thats a thing, all of your silly theroetix doesnt explain
    If your engi isn't built on crit, it's not going to perform well vs docs, enfs or advies.

    If your engi is built on crit, it's not going to perform well vs anyone else.

    If you're using OH/AMEP, you're not going to perform well vs evaders ever.

    So, who is it that you think you're performing well against that you wouldn't be performing as well if not better using troa'ler?

    You can say whatever you want, but the reality is that OH has max dmg of 121 and min dmg of 1, meaning your non-crit AS's are ALWAYS going to underperform compared to troa'ler, and, your regulars will ALWAYS hit for less, when they hit, because you've got 600+ less AR with it.

    That's not math, that's common sense.

    I'm not expounding theory, or hypotheses, I'm just using proven concepts to provide you with proof.

    Also, I never said AMEP+OH won't perform "well", it will perform "well" The Aimedshot special, however, on OH is a poor mans choice compared to troa'ler.

    Loading up on AS skill will make it more reliable, but nothing like the troa'ler.

    If you've got enough AS skill that OH might be giving you nice consistent AS's between 2500-5000 PVP damage, equipping the Troaler will provide you with capped hits and 5k-10k damage. Period.

    And like I said, that's not theory, that's 121 max dmg vs 225 max dmg.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumonde View Post
    I hate pure math constructs.

    Go outside, gather your gear and put your ars.es within live duels. The most of you would see how some maths and theoretic constructs are nothing more then maths and theoretic constructs.

    AMEP+OH > Tro/Peh

    Just check my Engis euqipment, its not builded upon crit. But it performs more then pretty good. Thats a thing, all of your silly theroetix doesnt explain
    Low hp for average As vs high hp with stable hp

    As i stated before Amep+OH--->team
    Tro/peh---> duel/solo pvp
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  15. #35
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    M'kay, anyone has a tl7 enf and a bit of time to let me pop a lot of aimedshots on him? We can just make some stats altho my as is a bit lower than average due to being an atrox.
    Last edited by Ciex; Jul 26th, 2013 at 07:19:33.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  16. #36
    I should have time on Sunday for it, what time ranges are you normally online ?

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  17. #37
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Evenings GMT. Try to catch me on Rychu or Ciek, i have both lolpistol and craphander with ability to swap em.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  18. #38
    Just a note, I don't have an Engineer, and never really struggled with them beyond those robots, but listening to you bicker, just remember why it's AMEP/OH - it's not cause the OH is better; it ain't. But the AMEP -is- better. Alot better. That's what you wshould be talking about.
    I'm Batman.

  19. #39
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    It has no fling tho. I know its not much but it may help with those pesky doctors.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  20. #40
    Higher AR for evaders
    I'm Batman.

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