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Excuse me ? Mad at the world ?
Since your arguments ran our since you can not continue discussing since YOU don not got any values to put in yourself (!), your short replies seem to be a bit mad. Or maybe it is just because you recognized that you are even unable to read.
My question now:
- Do you did Tro/peh vs. Amep/OH tests yourself ? Any ?
- Where are the 55k+ test values / results ?
Since this thread is exactly discussing this and these tests has been thrown severally in by you, I want to see them.
I used a AR/HP setup with a low-moderate AS skill (about 1380ish iirc) when I used AMEP/OH
I currently use a 1730ish AS setup with troaler/Pewher
I didn't do any dedicated testing, I only used gut feel about the setups to gauge my personal satisfaction.
After I equipped Tro/Pew, I was initially disappointed with the perception of lower AR and the lower damage while doing PVM stuff (I could swap to IDBEP while using AMEP/OH) and that was a minor detriment.
But what made me stay with Tro/Pew wasn't the omfg gank u AS's, it was the consistency and feel of the setup that made it significantly better overall:
* consistent offhand damage
* range (ie, at tara/towers)
* harder hitting Aimed shot
* the fact that I can roast profs who I would have been able to hit with 3200 AR AI perks that I can't AI perk with tro/pew
The aimed shot testing Gatester did isn't relevant in my "gut" feel decision.
The aimed shot testing Gatester did is only relevant in the discussion in which I was disproving your unsubstantiated claim that the AS on OH is as good if not better than what you'd get on the Troaler.
Quoted you below:
I assume you aren't raising the AS skill because it helps you land bursts with AMEP.
If you're raising the AS skill and subsequently suggesting that this makes the AMEP/OH "much" more efficient than Tro/Pew, it means, since logic states that raising AS skill helps your Aimed shot specials, that you're suggesting that OH does better AS's than Troaler.
Hence, I proved mathematically, and using Gatester's AS testing as a backdrop that this is misinformation.
Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Aug 1st, 2013 at 07:50:23.
you didnt test the OH setup with max AS skill and are basing your arguments only from your "gut feeling" while you debate vs someone who tested it.
i think that he rather means oh AS will be almost as good as troaler with max AS equipp but with the AR benefit from amep, it will push the combination of amep/oh to be better than troaler/pewhler.
Last edited by Hassler; Aug 1st, 2013 at 08:17:31.
No.
I'm basing my DECISION to use Tro/Pew on "gut feeling"
I'm arguing that AS from OH cannot be better than AS from tro based on testing done by someone else. (This isn't arguable)
Yes, that's what I "think" he meant too, but that's not what he said, and furthermore its not what he changed his argument to after my proof.
AMEP/OH combo isn't bad, by any means. But, to use effectively in mass PVP requires some concessions, like using a yatamutchi, and therefore gimping yourself of another 45 AR or 500-1000 HP and some other useful stats.
From my experience, AMEP/OH is OK in duels, but logically, it can't be better than Tro/Pew:
Consider the single REAL benefit of AMEP:
higher AR with main hand, which gives possibly the ability to perk target with AI perks.
But, what hasn't once been mentioned when making this argument is that your offhand suffers a massive AR drop, something to the tune of 500 or more AR compared to having a pistol AR based offhand such as lust/pew. Not ONLY does your offhand suffer a large AR sacrifice, but real damage produced by offhand regulars when the OH equipped is less than a third of the damage produced by lust or pew. When fighting a target where landing an AI perk would ostensibly make a difference in the final outcome, a critical thinker would clearly suggest that one might want to measure the impact of losing so much damage from the offhand.
These points aren't "gut feeling", and, they dont' rely on chance huge multipliers to impart the feeling of equality between specials between two different weapons, they are based on real values:
min damage of troaler = 225
min damage of OH = 1
MBS on OH is 1223
MBS on Troaler is 2750
AR on troaler is 2800ish
AR on OH is 2300ish
if add damage is the same for both weapons, you're looking at some pretty disparaging conclusions for OH users.
To McKnuckleSamwich I'd love when opponent make wrong comparison:
1) You compare min dmg for AS weapon, but we know that we need to compare max dmg and crit mod without add dmg (it coud be different in diferent setups):
- AS for Troaller: min AS 225*4.23=952, Critical AS (225+100)*4.23=1375
- AS for Onehander: min AS 121*3.6=436, Critical AS (121+584)*3.6=2538
So 436 vs 952 or i'd like to say it's crap vs crap. In my add dmg setup it is 1013 vs 1529, a little bit better, but it is still crap. Critial AS as you can see it is crap vs real pvp dmg.
So minus 1 advantage for troaller, becouse you compare minimal dmg.
2) Difference of MBS for AS weapon connected with dmg calculations (look at paragraph 1). So minus 1 advantage for Troaller, because MBS doesn't affect AS dmg a lot and you need to calculate all numbers together:
- Onehander (1000/400+1)+223/(400*6)=3.6
- Troaller (1000/400+1)+1750/(400*6)=4.23
3) You compare AR on troaller with AR on onehender, but you need to compare AR on Troaller with AR on AMEP that has 25% ME AR bonus. May be, you think about better crit chance with higher AR, but you can see in paragraph 1 that it doesn't really matter for troaller. More over troaller checks Dodge-Rng, but onehander checks Duck-Exp, which many players doesn’t have high enough. So minus another 1 advantage from your list.
To summarize: You haven’t written any advantage of Troaller setup.
PS: I'll compare troller with Onehander later, want to sleep.
Nemezyda PvP/DD/Solo PVM/tradeskill engineer.
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I've been following this thread closely because my engi is 216-217 grenade atm (does all my tskills atm still).
I wanted to have option of switching to AMEP pistol/OH for pvp. The OH has such low multi-range req that I figure I can still have grenade skill maxed (I love the boom stick) instead of investing too much in multi-ranged for "troller".
So my real question is, if the added dmg from shotgun perkline + perks makes much difference in these calculations? Do those perks matter much pvp wise or not?
I am already moderate crit setup (12-14 without looking) and I expect that to go up if I can self Chicken bot without control eye or Chicken bot with crit scope instead of comm relay.
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I think people are missing the point entirely. The question isn't Tro vs OH - it's AMEP/OH vs Tro/Peh.
The hand cannon and the craphander has a shorter range but can deal much higher damage than the tro/peh, which is steadier and more reliable. I think OH is best for duels, cause the range isn't taken into account, at which point the AMEP kinda just compensates for the damage.
I'm Batman.
The real question is what is the avg AR in these setups. pistol/pistol v pistol/shotty. Is it 2200-2400 or 2600-2800? Or can it go higher?
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pistol + AAO is about 2800-3000 I think.
Pistol+25%ME +AAO is about 3200-3300 but not entirely sure.
Wrong - I didnt missed it, neither did Hass. If you would re-read my posts, I always was talking about the whole combination. In only a little numbers of posts, I was talking about the OH´s AS itself, but never was loosing the "Tro/Peh VS. AMEP/OH" out of sight since this is the point at all.
And it is just like Hass said. But I cant expect someone who based all of this "arguments" on a "gut feeling" to be competetive in this discussion at all.
There are not really much ppl like Hass, Unfook and me who did these tests that excessive. But: We did them
Amep is up to %30, from %25 now..but we also just got the silverback...
There is no "one setup to end it all" here
I use primarily AMEP + OH because I can instakill some players with it. Not the good ones though, but on BS 2v1 situations are quire common... I just instakill the gimpier "add" so I can focus on the bigger bite.
If you are lucky it dishes out more dmg than any other setup. If you are unlucky, it barely scratches the other player.
Occasionally I swap to Silverback when I want reliable AS, works good if there are more decent evaders around or they kite you too much. I dont like it very much though because it is a one trick pony. AS + easy shot. That's all you're gonna get in. But that goes in reliably.
In tower wars I tend to swap to Troaler+IDBEP, due to range and because it has more reliable AS than the onehander. I really really do not like the troaler though. Only slightly better aimed shots than OH. Also, the potential maximum AS damage is higher on OH, because troa crit modifier sux.
When I feel like being a hipster I switch to Remodulator for mass pvp
In PVM I switch to a high crit setup AMEP + IDBEP. It is the second best pvm setup that can go with a PVP build
What I don't use:
troa + pehwer: I think is the worst of all these days. Not that much better aimed shots, the setup is completely inflexible and I think pehwer plain sucks against IDBEP. That fling wont do any good.
troa + PDKP: A decent setup, good for killing other engineers, and might be good all around. A bit inflexible to my taste though. I would choose this setup if I wanted an all-rounder setup and cant be bothered to swap weapons.
AMEP + PDKP: the best pvm dmg setup if you are not willing to make a retard setup like dshark. with crit setup ofc.