you're 100% correct, although i'm not sure what exactly pvm has to do with a discussion about a pvp setup soldier and their experiances pvping with a new pvp weapon.Originally Posted by Psikie
you're 100% correct, although i'm not sure what exactly pvm has to do with a discussion about a pvp setup soldier and their experiances pvping with a new pvp weapon.
Sorry got pulled off topic from Gates posts.
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So, according to you, soldiers don't have high healdelta.
Engineer don't NSD soldiers.
Traders don't borrow reflect soldiers.
Nanotechnicians don't pierce reflects.
Enforcers don't have hellish rage and an 800 runspeed rage proc.
Enforcers do not have challenger.
Enforcers never go into defense setups.
Ultra improved behemoth doesn't exist, and not a chance could you use that with rage and procs.
Maybe, you just need a better enforcer setup (Wearing carbonum, perhaps?). Maybe you also need to start PvPing more than once every 3 weeks, considering I've literally never seen a 220 enforcer named Gatester more than twice on RK2 for the last three years, and not one was in the battlestation, or doing any sort of PvP.
Go ahead, please, post on your other forum account. You'll still be incorrect because you cannot change facts. I went on a fully setup 220 enforcer literally to draw that list out for you. I've also dueled Marine maybe more than 250 times top help him test setups, and done hundreds of duels with a soldier on top of having a tl7 soldier myself, and spending maybe about average 4h a day on Skype with Marine to collaborate setups and play for the last 3 years. So, no, you are more than incorrect, you're pretty much straight up lying or being ignorant.
(You also misquoted the number of seconds, I figured I'd throw that one out there)
Last edited by wonderland; Mar 31st, 2013 at 10:54:29.
Fact that we have a discussion about two most brutish professions in evade context should raise concern.
This is plain wrong, enfos and soldiers should never even be tempted to consider evade setups...
Kinda like shades should never seek nanoskill setup...
Just crazy that my enfo has more AAD than my evade advy and my soldier more evades than my crat...
WTB rebalance now.
I was away for a while and thank you for pulling this into a seperate thread so it may be discussed more naturally and not take away from your other.
I think the issue between you and I is not that I am disagreeing with you, rather you are arguing a different point than what I am trying to make. You are giving up a lot for 3k dodge, and any sort of evade setup on a soldier will be giving up a lot. The trade-off for that def is harsh, but it is irrelevent to what I feel is not only balanced but also more favorable for soldiers.
A soldier, in this case, should be choosing between a setup which can reliably hit any profession at a sacrifice of mitigation or max health, have strong and working mitigation tools that supplement well with support professions, or excessive max health which can work effectively with powerful healers (unfortunately limited to doctors for now). A hybrid choice would also be applicable but maximizing one of the three should be the primary choices for a soldier.
Evades should not be an option, rather a soldier should not consider going evades because their mitigation toolset should be working properly. Soldiers do not need new ways of mitigating damage, they need reflects to be balanced so that they are working as they should, so that soldiers are in fact tanks at all times. I am glad to see you taking full advantage of the evades in your toolset to utilize a unique setup, but I do not feel that a balanced soldier profession would have an evades toolset.
Things I would change:
Nerf or remove NSD, or put blockers in the same line as the NSD reflect. From my experience, its not the NSD alone that gets me killed on a soldier, its the addition of blockers nullifying my damage that is the issue with engineers. My 80% to 85% reflects being reduced by NSD are still quite effective alongside my max health, but as long as an engineer can shrug off all my damage too then it's a problem.
Fix LE nukes to only pierce radiation damage. We all know this one.
Fix the reflect hole after AMS/TMS ends. We all know this one.
Replace the on/off reflect style of AMS/TMS with a more user-dependant style, or provide alternative sets of reflect buffs that allow a soldier to adapt to his situation. Being more in-depth here would take too much time but I have never liked the whole "defenses up" then "defenses" down style of soldiers.
TL : DR version
Balanced soldier would have a working and more efficient reflect based toolset for mitigation and evades would not be an option. You should always hit a soldier but you should take a long time to take him down.
Marine's soldier has practically no HD.
Engineers reduce not "remove" reflects. AMS still helps and I know this from experience.
Traders reduce not "remove" reflects either. It's only 20% reduction from a trader. AMS/TMS still helps, and I know this from experience.
I did not bold NTs because they were the only correct listing, so why are you listing them?
Enforcers are running challenger procs, not rage procs, in defensive setups. Beyond that it is simple math, snare perks from an agent are greater than potential runspeed boosting an enforcer has, the fear snare is greater than the rage buff, and snare nanos are more than the rage buff. It is inaccurate on both practicality and math.
Calc enforcer AR in a defensive setup before posting random AR values. For as much defense as you claim you should be at 3000 or less AR max.
Enforcer defensive setups do not have 3000 static defense rating...300 points over the average, I really would like to see how you reach that selfed.
You are looking at a maximum of 2000 static runspeed for an enforcer (I tend to have around 1850). -2500 from Ultra puts you at -500. Hellish rage puts you at 700 runspeed, aka you are a tl3. Now, given that some people lack an IQ and cannot outrun 700 runspeed at 220, sometimes you can get your proc off, so now you have 1500 runspeed. You are now, on average 500-1000 runspeed slower than every profession at 220, please tell me how this is viable for a melee profession?
Also you did not list it but I bolded the NR because without an HHaB enforcer NR is around 2700 with Hellish Rage. Technically you could just swap it on but then you lose 30 AAD, which defeats the purpose of going for a defensive setup.
Because enforcer PVP has changed so much in the past few years from 1hb/1he + mongo rage to...?
Considering I said nothing about enforcer PVP capabilities or even made any complaints whatsoever about enforcers (actually pretty sure I said enforcers need to be nerfed on several accounts because they are too strong), what exactly is the point of this post? I do not need to actively PVP with my enforcer to do !stats and !calc in a bot to add two numbers together.
Post an enforcer with 3400 NR, 3200 AR without procs, <3000 static def, capped runspeed with either both agent snare procs, fear snare, or top nano snares running, and while you are at it I would include Mongo Rage unless you think a defensive setup enforcer is going to PVP without it.
I mean, I know you are full of ****, but I have an enforcer in my signature which clearly does not come close to that defensive value, NR value, nor does it have MR yet you apparently can do better than me by just "logging in" so feel free to prove me wrong...but if I see parry sticks, shame on you, just shame on you
Yeah I misread that as 120 seconds and not 1m 20s, it's not typical to type like that in the US.
This is pretty much all I was saying, before everyone suddenly became an expert on enforcers and tried to argue stats with me in a soldier thread...Enforcers need lots of nerfs, no doubt, but at least get the current facts right ffs.
Soldiers and enforcers should never be effective with evades, and unfortunately they are.
Last edited by Gatester; Mar 31st, 2013 at 20:51:03.
discussed this last night with someone. apparently you can make a self-buffed enfo with 3k dodge, 3.2k evade, 3128 1hb ar with chall before procs and still have mongo rage.
this enf would have the same hp as one wearing CC and 3.3k nr.
this is before towers and contracts, but with pf buffs.
EDIT: apparently it can have over 3k 1hb ar without pf buffs if you don't mind giving up imongo (the way marine gave up ams5)
Last edited by Lazy; Mar 31st, 2013 at 22:30:32.
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=139216discussed this last night with someone. apparently you can make a self-buffed enfo with 3k dodge, 3.2k evade, 3128 1hb ar with chall before procs and still have mongo rage.
this enf would have the same hp as one wearing CC and 3.3k nr.
this is before towers and contracts, but with pf buffs.
EDIT: apparently it can have over 3k 1hb ar without pf buffs if you don't mind giving up imongo (the way marine gave up ams5
I also updated my signature to show this setup. I believe we can all agree that this setup is not lacking def in any reasonable sense, and without using the protector module or HHaB it is technically more "defensively" built than marine's soldier. There are issues with this setup which I will address after.
The stats are as follows:
2762 static dodge, evade, and duck def (evades+AAD)
2703 static NR
2392 1hb skill
2126 1he skill
3088 attack rating with Challenger
~33250 max health with Ibehe/Imongo/Ice Burn
~60250 max health with Ultra Behemoth
159 Heal Delta
2925 runspeed
Now for the issues:
This setup can cast all top nanos, but its below the +20 nanoskill mark (otherwise 1 incompetence nano prevents Imongo casting, good enfs setup above this buffer). CM boots would be replaced with prisoner boots to maintain highest constant def, giving up 25 AR and 15 AAD for needed nanoskills in both a PVM and PVP setup.
HHaB would be used in most cases, so either the ofab ring giving HD/AAO/max health is lost or the +30 AAD/max health ring is lost.
The perk setup is sketchy but I did have to have both Mutate for highway and Atrox Primary for mongo rage. Giving up nanoskills is not an option due to being unable to cast end game nanos, so the champion perkline was lost.
Most enfs would use the protector module I believe, a nice 1500 max health and 32 AR but you lose 50 AAD.
I would also use a slightly different perk reset, mostly dropping the 1he line entirely.
I would also be using an HD foot implant, losing AAO and dodge ranged.
Dreadloch panther for the AAD proc is also a good choice of the mallet but you lose further stats.
Overall with all the expected changes you would be close to the values I have been stating of ~3.2k AR, 2.6k dodge def, 2.7k evade def, 3.2k NR, 150 to 200 HD and a bit shy of 38k max health I believe. I'll make and post that setup afterward.
Either way, going with this setup we are:
112 AR short of 3.2k
238 def short of 3.0k
141 HD short of 300
~10000 max health short of 70000
500 NR short of 3.2k
If you can find a way to adjust this setup to reach any of the many so-called "enforcer stats" that have been quoted in this thread I would be more than happy to see it as I would most definately use it myself for PVE.
Last edited by Gatester; Mar 31st, 2013 at 23:25:55.
that's not a def setup. none of that armor is best-in-slot def gear. try again.
if you want a def setup, you gotta really want it. sacrifice more. so far i don't see any sacrifices for def in the same way marine sold sacrificed ams 5. so no, it's not a "more defensive" setup. it's pvm armor combined with a brokenly strong toolset to make an above average pvp prof without much effort.
Last edited by Lazy; Mar 31st, 2013 at 23:29:39.
vs
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It's such a shame that literally everyone knew enf was stupidly OP the day they added their "skill" alpha and what was that, 2 years ago maybe?
All you have to do is change about 5 different items/perks and they are back to being a decent tank instead of a rampaging unCCable 30k HP/healing evade prof with stuns, fears and snares.
From talking with people who enjoy pvp on toons other than fixer/adv/enf the thing that really comes through as the most insulting and frustrating is the fact that most of their power is built upon abuse of mechanics, and that any mention of it is deleted asap.
This was what I was wearing. Tell me I asked for it
Why? Given how op'd doc heals, fixer/ma evades, cc, debuffs, blockers, ADVIES etc are why the heck shouldn't soldiers get something that can give them a tincy wincy chance to survive more than 80 seconds?
I stopped looking at what Gatester said after I read that it's fine for Enforcers to run away and be unstoppable in doing so.
This is a defensive setup, although even this one borderlines non-viable.
I'll try to make an all out defensive setup, hm perhaps one focusing on evade def and the other one focusing on general def. I'm gonna predict over 3000 evade def on the first, and maybe 2900 general def on the second but with it's AR will probably hit ~2800 and the NR will be just as low.
Those values should work for PVE still, but it should not only be far from viable in PVP but it should fall a good 400 to 500 AR short of the 3200 AR+3000 def figure.
I might tweak Marine's setup a bit as well to see what sort of stats I can get, but it's not exactly going to be the same. Soldiers with AMS/TMS up are quite strong compared to enforcers, but with AMS/TMS down they become far weaker than enforcers, hence Marine's complaints about a lack of a secondary defense. It's probably just going to be 1 viable setup and 1 non-viable setup.
You mean the one thing that absolutely must be nerfed before anything else on enforcers? It's literally basic reading comprehension but allow me to rephrase it.
Here I am stating, clearly, that rage should be nerfed so that enforcers can actually be rooted and snared. I then say that enforcers are not mitigating very much damage, they get hit quite often and for high amounts, but because they can run away so easily the high amount of damage an enforcer takes is not something they can complain about.
In otherwords, rage is so OP that enforcers do not even need to tank damage, they just run away and you can rarely do anything to stop them.
I'm going to state this very clearly. Anyone who thinks that I feel that enforcers are the nerfest, or do not need a massive amount of reduction in power based off of what I have said over the last few years is either a trolling fool or incompetent when it comes to understanding words. Correcting someone's false information does not indicate an opinion on a profession, it does indicate my hate for ignorance and laziness.
Last edited by Gatester; Apr 1st, 2013 at 17:40:18.
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=189161
~29500 max health
2994 AR
2916 def
2774 NR
8000 to 9000 AC's
More AR than I thought, I was thinking the Xan of Hatred would go OE in this setup and force me to use the 1he buff instead of the 1hb buff, but it actually was ok because of using Coli instead of Conc. Could not hit 3000 static def, and honestly cannot think of any addition to reach those stats. Because of the combined scouts I was able to drop CoNC and could get Coli 7 and atrox secondary 3. This gave me an extra 46 AR and I was able to get Wit of the Atrox in the setup too.
Swapping boots of the dancing king would give it 2956 evade close and 2886 dodge/duck.
The setup actually loses about 3000 AC's, in otherwords this enforcer could be expected to sustain up to 300 more damage from every hit it takes, which is a substantial loss.
Offensively the setup is horrible. Champion damage perks are all but gone, the one left would do terrible damage. The AR is too low to perk most professions and even the 1he perks could be evaded by enforcers, defense setup doctors and MarinesoldThe perks could probably be adjusted to be more effective but would need to drop the 1he perkline.
As a side note, the combined scouts and the Collatz shoulder would both be OE, but I did not feel like calcing a 75% reduction in those items. Also the enforcer does not have a 2 second nano delta, and would actually run out of nano swiftly if it attempted to spam Imongo and Absorbs in a fight. Blue belt would be necessary but results in further loss of stats due to trickle and the armor would remain OE.
Now to compare it with Marinesold's evade setup (which I will note is lacking mystical force, AAD rings, and gauntlet shoulder/IGoC in the right shoulder).
The enforcer has:
~5000 more max health
970 more NR
5 more evade close (would actually be less with the blue belt)
83 more AR than SMG
21% less static reflects
2000 fewer AC's
100 less dodge ranged.
133 less AR than assault rifle
Soldier has tracer to gain an advantage offensively, however enforcer has highway to gain an advantage defensively. An enforcer could use a dreadloch panther in this setup for a chance at the -200 AAD debuff proc at the expense of 15 AR and some damage.
The enforcer would actually be funny to use, especially with highway and wit running. Not much you could kill but the enforcer could potentially hit 3.7k or so evades at a war? Doesn't even include team or self buffing perks, it's just WAY too much. Even if the setup is offensively terrible it can still kill people.
Enforcers should lose 50 AAD from the endurance booster, ofab helm, ofab back, and the 60 AAD from research. The speed preservation unit being an enforcer/soldier only item could also lose 50 AAD. This would reduce enforcer AAD by 260 and be far more balanced than it currently is.
Last edited by Gatester; Apr 1st, 2013 at 18:59:59.
there you go! you CAN make a def setup if you really try. i'd use css in some spots for more ar (15 aao per piece, iirc you only need 2 pieces of scouts to cast top nanos without conc) and pf buffs would be a must. 175 aao/aad would put you over 3.2k ar/3k def and carried by MR you'd perk anyone you need to perk.
Last edited by Lazy; Apr 1st, 2013 at 19:24:37.
Sorry for quoting this twice but I felt it necessary for the discussion.
Wanted to make an all-out evade soldier too.
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=189166
This setup should have 138 more def reaching:
3154 dodge ranged
3049 evade close
This setup is terrible, but it actually makes the sacrifices that Lazy was indicating. I see a lot of evades simply handed to a soldier as well:
135 evades from buffs
150 dodge from perks
50 evades and duck from perks
30 evades in every piece of CSS
AAD and evades in every alpha symbiant
This actually puts soldiers at substantially more dodge ranged than enforcers from simply perking, buffing, and equipping gear.
Some important notes in regards to Marine's setup as well. Marine "can" go AMS 4 and chooses to go AMS 3, and he also states that a higher AMS is not really necessary. This means his AMS was not a sacrifice according to his own statement. His IP problems are also due to his choice of running a setup heavy on several weapon skills at once, and I believe Marine could have trimmed IP from stats in order to increase nanoskills further. Marine is running a defensive setup, not a full defensive setup.
The few things Marine actual sacrificed could be replaced and still allow for an evade setup comparable to an enforcer.
http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=189167
This setup, according to Marine's stats, should still have 2736 dodge rating and over 3k dodge while wit is running. This setup regains it's HD and obtains a substantial increase in AR. For a soldier to reach over 2700 dodge def by only swapping out his ofab back and research device, his general evades access is far too high.
I stayed with the Scout's because it let me replace CoNC 10 with Coli 7 and secondary 3. I felt that getting wit of the atrox would be much more important for an evade based setup.
Bringing up the PF buffs is a major point too which I keep forgetting. I'm afraid to calc it but a fully OSB'd enforcer hitting a possible 4000 static def, perking up to 4500 dodge even? Soldier could even hit more dodge than that.
Simply too much def in this game for anyone who isn't dependant on evades.
Replying from iPhone so I can't quote stuff ATM so going to try and put up a couple sentences are try to piece where it all goes.
Gates, I am running a full defensive setup as far as it will let me in nearly all of those slots. Namely I cannot use anything but full CSS or I won't hit the aimed shot required to cap the tricker at 11s which without it the setup loses half it's intended purpose. Also the of an shoulders are because if being nanomage which forces me to wear them to be able to hotswap ofab back with notucomm which is necessary when lacking AMS5 and heal delta.
I do put on the aad ring when needed but due to soldiers terrible run speed and being shutdown by any cc I can't afford to give up the hhab outside of duels. Also by not having ofab gloves or helm im taking a big hit on tracer attack rating and missing the heal proc from the helm is quite substantial.
I could make 1-2 switches permanently like taking off soldier nano deck for defensive alien augmentation and trade ofab ring for the 30 aad ring permanently but I decided those final two trade offs we'rent worth it so I decided not to.
Leave "Marinegent" AScar - 220/23/65 Atrox Agent
Wakeup "Marinesold" Screaming - 220/30/70 Nanomage Soldier
"Moonmarin" - 220/30/80 Solitus Martial Artist
"Marinekeep" - 215/18/4x Atrox Keeper
The enf setup I came up with the other day was; http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=189082(no, deceit is not OE)
Sacrificing some damage for good defenses
To compare setups with gates it should read 20 less dodge and 145 more evade close def (if ACs are really such an issue you could give up 14 def for ofab back..)
Running the numbers I calced;
2989 1hb ar without champion line
2820 brawl ar
3013 evade close def
2848 dodge rng def
3300 nr with hhab
34628 HP
~220 standing HD
With zone buffs you are over 3k dodge, and just about 3.2k evade close def without highway or wit
AR would be over 3160 with the ability to swap to about 3.4k if you need + MR. Between 1hb perks, troll and brawler stuns, plus SA/Dim it should still have at least some sort of killing power.
If you were to give up imongo similar(or not) to marine choosing to not use ams5 you could gain 30 more ar from css instead of cs, and 46 more ar from champ of light infantry 7 putting you at 3070 ar before swaps. Though I would not recommend it. Marine is also not perked in mongo rage(nanomage) so he is running around with the full champ line anyway.
The way I see it, stat for stat, marines ~3k def rating and ~3k ar lines up pretty close with what an enforcer gets. What makes the def setups viable is that you are able to swap between the high def and a "decent" AR rating(or mongorage) pretty much whenever you need it. I don't think def setups are a problem and I like the fact that there are so many viable setup options, the only problem in my opinion would be perks like mongo rage that let even hopeless offense setups land perks and damage on evaders
Last edited by Xirayne; Apr 1st, 2013 at 23:46:55. Reason: fixed numbers
This is pretty much the point I was wanting to make but you said it well. While there is a setup to go full out evades the practicality of it is much less than desireable. You know from experience that the setup you are running has about all you can manage to give up, similarly I can tell when a setup is going to have issues as well for an enforcer.
The CSS and CS should both go OE, so you actually lose a few points in stats but it should be fine for discussion.
I actually really like this setup, I forgot about the lord of deceit (I actually have a lord of deceit for a PVE setup I was making). Pretty much you did exactly what I would do with the 1he weapon and discard it altogether. Regular damage really suffers but its not like enforcers have any sort of DPM anyways. The alpha should be stronger with the additional stuns for sure.
I would swap out the mallet with a dread panther for a -200 AAD proc. This way you could technically consider the setup more equivalent to Marine's, considering he still has his dodge debuffs which boost his AR for practical purposes.
Giving up Imongo would be a difficult choice, although it is reasonable if you follow a particular set of choices. Namely, you would cast the lower mongo and cancel the health buff, and also try to reduce max health. This would allow you to maximize the healing vs max health ratio. Otherwise, you are giving up 300 points of healing tick which is a massive sacrifice as well as a large amount of health.
As you have said though, Mongo Rage is a big problem, and the fact that it allows setups like this to be used causes issues. Beyond that, I simply feel enforcers and soldiers should have a working "tank" toolset and that if they did have a working tank toolset that the addition of high levels of defense would be an overpowered combination. Both professions have defense they can give up without affecting their strength, and there is a lot of general def floating around that should go as well.
My crat hits about 3.9k static def, and 4k with GSF. This enforcer with GSF and a crat aura would be hitting 3.6k evade and 3.8k evade with highway? I don't know, it just seems wrong to me but maybe I'm just being particular about the current levels of defense in-game.
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