The Rihwen and Carlo will no longer be nodrop.

[MassDebater]

This is where you increase the nano requirements to cast MP and crat pets, OR reduce engineer nano requirements and credit cost.

Right?


But if you don't think my opinion holds enough weight, allow this respected MP veteran to help explain the situation:

My point is, engineers whining is almost completely unfounded. And yet you've been doing it since before MPs gave up on being constructive.

Let's talk about some other inequalities. Can crats and MPs buy their 220 pet from a vendor now too??

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that running to a vendor and buying a pet was the same as begging friends to farm keys and then farm a raid that not a lot of people really like to do. Oh ya, and even then we can get unlucky. I didn't get my pet until the 4th raid. Random is random, engis don't have to deal with that.

Here's a timeline:
Crat and MP pets changed from 30 minutes to 2 hours - Engineer pets unchanged.
Crat and MP pets change from 2 hours to permanent - Engineer pets unchanged.
Crat and MP endgame pets changed from nodrop to yesdrop - Engineer pets unchanged.

Before: Carlo took only 1400 MC/TS but lasted 30 minutes and you had to do Biodome raids to get it.
Widowmaker took 2046/41 MC/TS. Cost 3512 credits per cast.

After: Carlo took only 1400 MC/TS lasts forever and will be purchasable on GMI.
Widowmaker took 2046/41 MC/TS. Cost 3512 credits per cast.

[Graftmage]

Engineers still have better pets though.

[Belph]

I agree, reducing the credit cost will make it fair for all. Bump

[Lazy]

bump. make engineer pets identical to the rihwen.

make them cost 0 credits have the same ar and same nanoskill costs. bringing engineers to the same level as other pet profs is pretty important. additionally, engineer blockers should be more like Sacrificial Shield. self dot, 5 blockers and a 30s lockout.

[MassDebater]

Engineers still have better pets though.

Unfortunately I lost the text file of a draft post I made, and the thread was locked before I could post it.

If you compare engineer pets at the same MC/TS requirements as Crat and MP, you find that engineer pets are inferior.

bump. make engineer pets identical to the rihwen.

make them cost 0 credits have the same ar and same nanoskill costs.

While I like your suggestion of a heal pet for engineers, I feel it is slightly off topic.

[Esssch]

But if you don't think my opinion holds enough weight, allow this respected MP veteran to help explain the situation:

Please, we all know I'm not respected.

I agree, reducing the credit cost will make it fair for all. Bump

Wait, we'd better make it more equal than that. Take Widowmaker off the vendor entirely and stick it on the loottable of Biodome as well.

Unfortunately I lost the text file of a draft post I made, and the thread was locked before I could post it.

If you compare engineer pets at the same MC/TS requirements as Crat and MP, you find that engineer pets are inferior.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=581988

Here, let's compare Widowmaker to Rihwen.

Widowmaker cast reqs:
2046 MC
2041 TS


Rihwen cast reqs:
2045 MC
2040 TS


But wait, I don't think 1 point in each and 3k creds is worth an extra 800 AR. And notice Rihwen was added in 15.6.1, both engi pets were added in 15.0.1. Maybe you get an extra 800 AR because of losing out on 14k hp, except really HP doesn't matter on a pet past 30k or so.


I agree, though, make pets equal. Give Rihwen 7.8k AR, cause we only have 1 attack pet, and let engineers cast their pets without paying 3k creds. Also, raise Rihwen's HP another 8k to make up for the difference between him and dog+widow.


Also, while we're at it, give engi special blockers and reflect rippers to MPs and crats too.

[Metafizis]

Swap engi and MP pets.

Problem solved and at the same time no need for rebalancing MP and Eng.

[Psikie]

If you compare engineer pets at the same MC/TS requirements as Crat and MP, you find that engineer pets are inferior.

Here, let's compare Widowmaker to Rihwen.

Widowmaker cast reqs:
2046 MC
2041 TS


Rihwen cast reqs:
2045 MC
2040 TS

Also, while we're at it, give engi special blockers and reflect rippers to MPs and crats too.

HILARIOUS!!!

Swap engi and MP pets.

Problem solved and at the same time no need for rebalancing MP and Eng.

Id prefer to keep heal pet...besides if rebalance ever happens, we will have coolest looking Notum Scourge/TNH pet!!!

[Pennypacker]

Engineers complaining about pets are so cute.

Buying stuff of GMI isn't near buying it from a vendor fyi. But I personally couldn't care less if they drop the credit cost to cast the pet, nor the nanocost.

[doctorgore]

All pet classes need new pets. New and improved and rebalanced for 2013. Don't argue with each other point the finger at where it belongs.

To state the obvious. Excluding carlita since its not endgame pet.


FC, we want new pets. We need new pets. All pet classes.

[Cratertina]

just make engi pets instacast like carlo is, and make engi pet buffs have like 1second recharge, so you dont buff for 8minutes.

[Notcrattey]

I agree, reducing the credit cost will make it fair for all. Bump

Bump dis, they're too expensive.

[wonderland]

The main inequality between the engineer and metaphysicist pets, is that the Rihwen slaps you to deal it's damage, while the engineer Widowmaker shakes it's eyeball at you to deal damage.

[Gorathon]

I've gone clubbing, I know the damage a withering look can deal.

[Marinegent]

If the issue is the timed duration of engi pets theres no harm in increasing them to the same length as other pets. Thats just a quality of life change.

However the nanocost requirement should stay right where its at, but if the idea is to bring pet profs more in line with each other then we should start taking away engineer tools before we start giving them anything since they're already better off in many departments except evades compared to both crat and MP, but while we're on the subject crat's could use quite a few nerfs (mostly related to duration and spamability) to their debuffs.

[Zeephonz]

They should give Carlo really long arms, and a dalek hat, and then all professions can use it.

[MassDebater]

Please, we all know I'm not respected.

Wait, we'd better make it more equal than that. Take Widowmaker off the vendor entirely and stick it on the loottable of Biodome as well.

Time will tell, but making Carlo and Rihwen yesdrop makes it a buyers market on GMI.

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...d.php?t=581988

Here, let's compare Widowmaker to Rihwen.

Widowmaker cast reqs:
2046 MC
2041 TS


Rihwen cast reqs:
2045 MC
2040 TS

Here, let's compare Widowmaker to Rihwen while acknowledging the difference in nanoskill buffage between MP and Engineer.

Widowmaker cast reqs:
2046 MC
2041 TS


Rihwen cast reqs:
2045 MC
2040 TS


Mochams: 140 MC/TS
Odins: 120 MC/TS
Difference between MC buffed in my setup and the average of Jutu's and Metafly7's: 206
Difference between MC buffed in my setup and the average of Jutu's and Metafly7's: 175
Difference between base MC/TS in my setup and the average of two endgame MP's: -20


Total nanoskill differential at 220:
415 MC
446 TS.

In other words: MP's gets 415 more MC yet their pets require the identical amount of nanoskills to cast.

Now what about crat? Carlo takes 1400 MC/TS. I don't think I need to work that one out for you to understand what is going on.


Perhaps these vastly lower (relatively speaking) requirements are because Carlo and Rihwen only lasts 30 minutes , only lasts 2 hours not buyable in a vendor

But wait, I don't think 1 point in each and 3k creds is worth an extra 800 AR. And notice Rihwen was added in 15.6.1, both engi pets were added in 15.0.1. Maybe you get an extra 800 AR because of losing out on 14k hp,

If you compare what both MP and Eng can cast considering the relative difference in nanoskills you find that an engineer would be casting the 209 pet.

This pet has 1957 AR. Less than Rihwen.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...31#post4759931

except really HP doesn't matter on a pet past 30k or so.

Then I will just say that AR doesn't really matter on a pet past 2.2k.

Oh wait I won't because that would also be lying.

I agree, though, make pets equal. Give Rihwen 7.8k AR, cause we only have 1 attack pet, and let engineers cast their pets without paying 3k creds. Also, raise Rihwen's HP another 8k to make up for the difference between him and dog+widow.

If we were to use your rushed attempt at a gotcha moment, we would also have to give engineers a heal and mezz pet.

Also, while we're at it, give engi special blockers and reflect rippers to MPs and crats too.

And then Eng gets NSD, SS, heal pet, mezz pet, nanoskill buffs?

And then you realise you just gave eng everything unique about MP, and MP everything unique about Eng.

You would waste all your time and find that in the end the same problems persist with both classes except they now have opposite names.

You would then realise that engineers asking for a small convenience change for pets isn't too much to ask for considering the negative aspects of MP and Crat pets are slowly being removed one by one while engineer pets remain untouched.

[Esssch]

Time will tell, but making Carlo and Rihwen yesdrop makes it a buyers market on GMI.

Will still probably go for about the same price as the lootrights do now, which is still considerably more than Widowmaker costs.

Here, let's compare Widowmaker to Rihwen while acknowledging the difference in nanoskill buffage between MP and Engineer.

Widowmaker cast reqs:
2046 MC
2041 TS


Rihwen cast reqs:
2045 MC
2040 TS


Mochams: 140 MC/TS
Odins: 120 MC/TS
Difference between MC buffed in my setup and the average of Jutu's and Metafly7's: 206
Difference between MC buffed in my setup and the average of Jutu's and Metafly7's: 175
Difference between base MC/TS in my setup and the average of two endgame MP's: -20


Total nanoskill differential at 220:
415 MC
446 TS.

In other words: MP's gets 415 more MC yet their pets require the identical amount of nanoskills to cast.

Now what about crat? Carlo takes 1400 MC/TS. I don't think I need to work that one out for you to understand what is going on.


Perhaps these vastly lower (relatively speaking) requirements are because Carlo and Rihwen only lasts 30 minutes , only lasts 2 hours not buyable in a vendor

That's a nice strawman. I'm sure the differences in nanoskills truly mattered...9 years ago. However, 2 expansions and a content pack, all of which contain considerably better gear, later, and it's not quite as relevant. Not to mention, you don't even post your setup. Hardly a valid and unbiased comparison.

But man, only a 206 and 175 difference in skills, when we have mochams and odin's other eye? Sounds like you really don't have any real reason to complain, especially since I personally am getting close to 2500 in both skills.

And our pets still won't be buyable from vendors. They will still be reliant on people doing Biodome, as well as other players' pricing. According to AUNO comments, Widowmaker costs 5.7m? Take that 5.7m, add the creds in each time you cast the bot, you still won't be even remotely close to what players are charging for Carlos/Rihwen lootrights. Further down it says it costs 18m, but the point is still valid.

If you compare what both MP and Eng can cast considering the relative difference in nanoskills you find that an engineer would be casting the 209 pet.

This pet has 1957 AR. Less than Rihwen.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...31#post4759931

Uh huh. So did you want nano buffs? Wait, you're already essentially getting that with rebalance. I doubt you have trouble casting your pet, so why exactly does this matter so much? Why not put your whining towards something actually useful?

Then I will just say that AR doesn't really matter on a pet past 2.2k.

Oh wait I won't because that would also be lying.

It's also not even comparable. Mortificant has 29k HP. It's not hard to kill it for enemies, but it's also not easy. Meanwhile, with a base 2.2k AR, Rihwen isn't going to hit anything. Even Bow MPs have more evades+AAD than that.

And then Eng gets NSD, SS, heal pet, mezz pet, nanoskill buffs?

And then you realise you just gave eng everything unique about MP, and MP everything unique about Eng.

You would waste all your time and find that in the end the same problems persist with both classes except they now have opposite names.

Thank you for summing up your own thread

[MassDebater]

Will still probably go for about the same price as the lootrights do now, which is still considerably more than Widowmaker costs.

Of course how silly of me to assume that a item with a maximum supply of one at any point in time that is highly perishable would go for more than that item once it becomes available on the GMI.

You don't even need to understand economics to grasp the concept.

That's a nice strawman. I'm sure the differences in nanoskills truly mattered...9 years ago. However, 2 expansions and a content pack, all of which contain considerably better gear, later, and it's not quite as relevant. Not to mention, you don't even post your setup. Hardly a valid and unbiased comparison.

If the differences in nanoskills don't matter, you wouldn't be opposed to this change.

But man, only a 206 and 175 difference in skills, when we have mochams and odin's other eye? Sounds like you really don't have any real reason to complain, especially since I personally am getting close to 2500 in both skills.

Did you read what I posted? 206 is before mochams and odins. The total is 415. Yes I know MP's get 2500 MC/TS that is why it is sad that a class with 1800-2000 in both has equal pet requirements. This used to be justifiable because pets lasted forever and were store buyable.

And our pets still won't be buyable from vendors. They will still be reliant on people doing Biodome, as well as other players' pricing. According to AUNO comments, Widowmaker costs 5.7m? Take that 5.7m, add the creds in each time you cast the bot, you still won't be even remotely close to what players are charging for Carlos/Rihwen lootrights. Further down it says it costs 18m, but the point is still valid.

Again ignoring economics. When someone sells carlo there is usually higher demand than there is supply. On the other hand you can try to sell carlo LR until it rots and you get nothing. Source: 2 carlos rotted without selling when I did BD.

Before unlooted pets rotted. Now, they will get placed on the GMI. Supply is going to jump.

They will have to compete with other listings, sell orders, psychological factors and buy orders.

I placed a 10m item on GMI and 2 hours later 7 people undercut me down to 1m.
You think romanian and chinese farmers are going to look at a 900m sell order for carlo and go "you know Im not going to quad log my sold, crat, doc and enf because killing 3 hags or buying a few keys for 50m is too much effort, I'm going back to farming Alb and DB2 and hope that I can sell enough credits to put food on my table for my family of seven"?

Uh huh. So did you want nano buffs? Wait, you're already essentially getting that with rebalance. I doubt you have trouble casting your pet, so why exactly does this matter so much? Why not put your whining towards something actually useful?

Rebalance isn't happening. I do have a frustrating set of actions to carry out to cast my pet. It matters because I will enjoy AO more if they change this while your enjoyment will not be lessened. Define useful? This seems pretty useful to me.

It's also not even comparable. Mortificant has 29k HP. It's not hard to kill it for enemies, but it's also not easy. Meanwhile, with a base 2.2k AR, Rihwen isn't going to hit anything. Even Bow MPs have more evades+AAD than that.

So 55k HP is an advantage thanks for admitting it. I doubt that Rihwen misses 100% of the time, if that were the case, no MP would bother casting it.

[Esssch]

Of course how silly of me to assume that a item with a maximum supply of one at any point in time that is highly perishable would go for more than that item once it becomes available on the GMI.

You don't even need to understand economics to grasp the concept.

You've obviously never dealt with some of the sellers in this game.

Did you read what I posted? 206 is before mochams and odins. The total is 415. Yes I know MP's get 2500 MC/TS that is why it is sad that a class with 1800-2000 in both has equal pet requirements. This used to be justifiable because pets lasted forever and were store buyable.

You said "This is MC buffed" hence the confusion.

You forgot to mention your pets having better AR as a justification. But really, what do you care what the justification is? You just want the game dumbed down to your level.

You think romanian and chinese farmers are going to look at a 900m sell order for carlo and go "you know Im not going to quad log my sold, crat, doc and enf because killing 3 hags or buying a few keys for 50m is too much effort, I'm going back to farming Alb and DB2 and hope that I can sell enough credits to put food on my table for my family of seven"?

LOL you think farming creds on AO is actually a viable source of IRL income anywhere in the world?

Rebalance isn't happening. I do have a frustrating set of actions to carry out to cast my pet. It matters because I will enjoy AO more if they change this while your enjoyment will not be lessened. Define useful? This seems pretty useful to me.

So you can't get 2k MC/TS, even though engineers could get that without alphas/ql300 symbs, db1/2/3 gear, any gear from aliens, or research? You must not be very good at this game.

So 55k HP is an advantage thanks for admitting it. I doubt that Rihwen misses 100% of the time, if that were the case, no MP would bother casting it.

Between Widowmaker and Rihwen there's a 14k HP difference. Would you like your pet to have 55k HP? I'd be okay with that, it's not like killing these pets is really that great of a strategy in PvP anyways, rooting or calming is much more reliable.

Why would you compare unbuffed AR? Rihwen is 2.2k unbuffed, 2.7k buffed. Would you use Widowmaker in current times with the 2.6k base AR?