I like how "ignore the trollbait dewdz. These guys aren't even looking for PvP, just a chance to say '/r u mad bro?'" was already mentioned on the 1st page and most of the people who have posted since then have ignored that advice.
I like how "ignore the trollbait dewdz. These guys aren't even looking for PvP, just a chance to say '/r u mad bro?'" was already mentioned on the 1st page and most of the people who have posted since then have ignored that advice.
:E
well obviously, that's the rational thing to do, but after this many years, the pavlovian conditioning is quite strongOriginally Posted by Ahndracorvid
EDIT:
allow me to get all hypothetical for a moment. let's pretend it's 7 years from now and the "break the fixers" patch happens the way it was suggested in the OP.
scenario 1: team wants to grief. they do what they did before to grief a field but they park a froob in the grid to watch for defenders zoning to their field and start meeping 10 seconds earlier.
result: griefing still possible
scenario 2: team doing pvp in bor. doc just died, engie rooted somewhere and crat getting MR'd to death. fixer starts team meep and everyone dies because 10 seconds is a REALLY long time in pvp.
scenario 3: froob team doing rk mishes. enf dies, doc out of nano, everyone running arouind like headless chickens due to a botched pull. fixer starts to meep but everyone dies because 10 seconds is a long time in pvm too as a froob against 250 mish mobs.
overall result: what OP wanted didn't get addressed, legitimate use destroyed, fixer worthless as a pvp support profession.
but by all means, let's keep pretendign that griefing is ONLY possible because of fixers and instant meep and if fixers lose that part of their toolset griefing will magically stop happening.
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 20:31:18.
OK, Lazy, you are quite remarkable at driving a conversation in a meaningless direction. Quite impressive really that you can take a completely indefensible position and actually make it sound like you are defending it, when in actuality you are defending something completely unrelated.
So back to the point. Again.
It has been clearly stated by Funcom representatives that it is possible to use the fixer toolset in a way that would be defined as griefing. That griefing can result in account bans.
The thing is that both you and I know that it's very possible to skate the line between griefing and not griefing simply by, every now and then, actually destroying a tower when no defender comes, or killing an outclassed defender.
What I am arguing here is that we should make a minor adjustment to how tower fields work so that they reduce the ability of fixers to instantly meep.
There is absolutely no possible justification in any way shape or form that you can make which will excuse the fact that there is an easily rectified griefing mechanism being left in the game which can be abused to the point where an account ban can result from it.
I tell you what. Why not leave fixers completely alone, change absolutely nothing about fixers. Why don't we simply change tower fields. That way you will stop complaining about changing fixers, and we can get onto the real topic of getting rid of a griefing mechanism.
An organization could buy or build some sort of grid security field, and use it on their tower. Said field would have some sort of impact on meeping, making it take longer, or perhaps disallowing it completely.
BUT - the grid security field can be hacked for a few minutes if your B&E skill is high enough. Say 5x QL of the tower?
SO - the first thing a fixer or team will want to do upon entering the tower field would be to disarm that grid security field.
This means that a fixer or team that simply wants to "ring the bell" of an enemy tower field will actually need to risk getting caught doing it. But a fixer or team that actually wants to attack a tower site and fight anyone who shows up, and be able to escape at need, will have to approach the site control tower, and disarm the grid security field.
No changes at all to fixers. Only a buffing of tower field defenses which will eliminate "bell ringing" fixer griefing.
So we have completely eliminated your objections to altering fixers in any way. How will you defend the griefers next?
so let me get this straight: the first thing a team would do when they get to the field would be press Q, disable the security field (refresh the disable every few minutes) and then meep when defenders showed up just like before? not sure how this helps OP's issue but it solves my problem breaking fixer support tools so this gets a thumbs up from me. numbers could use a 2nd look though. no pvp fixer has the ip for 1375 B&E
Last edited by Lazy; Jun 22nd, 2013 at 20:47:51.
^ This.
:E
It should take a few seconds at least to disable the field, but yes, pretty much. In essence, you're just putting speed bumps in to prevent griefing. Because people are a whole lot more likely to actually try to set up defenses when they know a fixer will be committed to 5-10 seconds open to PVP at a minimum, when they or their team dings a tower.
Numbers might be tweaked as well, but the purpose of what I'm suggesting is to make the bannable-type behavior of fixer "bell ringing" tower sites a thing of the past. If you implement something like this and try to get a fixer or their org in trouble for bell ringing a tower, then the ARK representative just says "Nope" because you have a significant window that you can engage the fixer in.
This reduces the workload of the ARK people, allows defenders a greater chance to catch a fixer who is engaging in hit and run, and doesn't significantly impact the mechanics of an actual tower field battle significantly.
Fixers meeping entire teams is stupid. If a full team can't survive a few seconds of PVP then they obviously should not be allowed to do so. Encouraging players to be crappy tower killers just reduces the quality of PVP in general. Could allow the meep nano to put a delayed "evac" in everyone's NCU so that the fixer is not just standing there ready to die and too easily stopped. Nano ends the team is meeped at that point. Some players may be killed, but that's the cost of having an inferior group, you should be penalized for being either weaker or unprepared to fight.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. A team should be prepared for an extensive, lengthy fight, no matter how many enemies arrive?
At some point, if the enemy brings their "A" game and begins to start winning, it's time to GTFO, and that's the fixer's job. If needed. The problem with this in PVP is it can be used as a total PVP avoidance technique, preventing defenders from having any opportunity to engage a group of opportunist "PVPers" who will only PVP against towers, not players.
By adjusting tower fields themselves, not fixers, this issue can be resolved. Not necessarily the way I described above, but probably something like it.
Ye gods.
Yes let's break more of the rest of the game by only thinking about PvP, as if the rebalance hasn't already done that enough both in itself and from the tone of the feedback y'all have given about it.
In before LOL PVMERS. Because clearly if PvP was the only thing we're supposed to enjoy about this game they would have listened to us and made more zones <75% already (they should totally do that by the way, bring some of the "Anarchy" back into "Anarchy Online"!).
Just leave it at anti-meep towers and be done with it. Sheesh. And stop being trollbaited by bored fixers who aren't even looking for PvP.
:E
alternatively we can stop trying to ruin a profession's *only* support tool. what exactly about meeping is stupid? are you implying that towers should ONLY be done with 100man raidforces and anyone trying to get a small skirmish going out in mort can go blow themselves? meeping as it stands is a tool for when things go sour. it's a great tool to prevent a 100man zerg from plowing over a 6man raiding party. the fact that some people abuse it to harass others doesn't take away the legitimate uses of an instant team evac.
you. i like you. you should post more.
A few seconds is not lengthy. It's not just towers that annoys me, I hate whenever a group is "winning" and the other team suddenly decides that they should meep their entire group instantly with no penalty, no risk, and no reward for the side that starts to beat them.
If you want to PVP, and you start to lose, you should not be allowed to just "quit" and disappear with no chance to suffer one last bit of risk. A few seconds, just a few not 30, 20, or 10, but just enough to allow a team to make the other group run away hurting.
About 3 second delay on full team grid meeping is not going to break anything. You guys are crazy if you think a team will go from perfectly safe to wiped that quickly, and if they let themselves get in such a poor shape that they are all going to die in a few seconds then obviously they should have meeped sooner.
I have not looked at the time I have /played on my fixer, but it is quite a long time, and in the half a dozen years I have had my fixer guess how many times I have used team meep for PVE? .5 times...because I accidently used my self-only meep instead of my team-meep. They also survived, so apparently a "few seconds" would not have broken anything in that one time I needed it either.
Perhaps someone can explain how they have used it so frequently and with such necessity that it completely trumps the hundreds of team meeps that occur for PVP purposes?
About 3 seconds, you are arguing against a few seconds here. You honestly think fixers would stop bothering to meep their teams just because there is a few second delay lol? Even worse, would you argue that these teams would no longer bother using fixers at all? It's just nonsense to even insinuate that the tool would be ruined just because of a slight delay on a nano affecting an entire team like this.
I am stating, for the record, or the "confirmed" if you will:
A weaker team in PVP should be at risk to suffer casualties in PVP and NEVER have a guaranteed escape tool that eliminates all risk.
Reality check, there are no teams of 100 defenders zerging a team of 6 players. It's generally a team of 6 or so rushing a team of 6 or so. Even a raid force of 36 players rushing into a group of 6 players in which the meep has a 3 second delay may not even lose a single player by the time the zerg gets in range, but at least there is a chance to kill someone.
I don't know about you, but if I was planning to be an annoying prick who made a group for harassing towers with a full team or even a full raid, I would still want a fixer in the team even if there was a few seconds delay on my evac. It will be a tool that does everything you still want meep to do, you just have to survive a few seconds to make use of it. Why should players be able to get out of dieing without risk whenever they want? That makes no sense.
Last edited by Anarrina; Jun 24th, 2013 at 01:53:16. Reason: edited for obscenities
While I agree that "a few seconds" instead of the 10 proposed originally wouldn't be as bad, I'm also not altogether convinced that you PvM enough on that toon to really be able to generalize about other players' use of it in PvM. For example, I have leveled several froobs and I know for a fact that having a fixer in the team for emergency gridding was a godsend while doing borgs.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how the majority of the game (PvM) is trumped by a minority (PvP)?
Or which of the people posting in this thread would lose out if the anti-meeping tower idea was implemented?
Or why nobody can seem to ignore a trollbaiting dweeb hitting on their towers?
:E
lol
of course 100 defenders aren't rushing 6 attackers. do you know why? because the attackers would just meep! it's a great tool for having a balance of power between attack and defense. and guess what, attackers do die even with a fixer. so clearly meeping isn't an issue.
I don't know about you, but if I was planning to be an annoying prick who made a group for harassing towers with a full team or even a full raid, I would still want a fixer in the team even if there was a few seconds delay on my evac. It will be a tool that does everything you still want meep to do, you just have to survive a few seconds to make use of it. Why should players be able to get out of dieing without risk whenever they want? That makes no sense.
if you wanted to be an annoying prick you wouldn't need a fixer. just about any profession can harass trowers and be annoying without a meep mechanic. clearly the issue isn't the meep but the players using the meep to harass.
Last edited by Anarrina; Jun 24th, 2013 at 01:54:16.
I wasn't going to post here because I'm against the OP sugestion and because there were already people with some reason posting against it. But it seems not enough.
First: Since when griefing is petitionable and banable? To me its a cool hit-and-run tactic that may work amazingly but can also be easily countered with super few ammount of players. The problem lies in low lvl towers that have too few HP and one toon can drop an entire site alone. Solution: Fix the low lvl towers instead of nerf meep.
Second: OP sugests to break the game to several PvMers and all the froobs. And the reason seems to be "I'm annoyed with the griefings". How my org deals with griefing? !whois whoever attacked, log toons that can beat then, get team, get buffs, jump on there. If its just a griefing and they have a fixer, they meep and it's done. It toke less than 10minutes of your gameplay.
Third: The OP blames Meep, say it is broken and must be fixed, while the problem is the lack of ways to stop the meep. You can completely shutdown it with a MP or a Crat, and slow it down with a Doc or a Crat as well. Give another prof a way to shutdown meep instead of nerfing meep would be reasonable.
Fourth: If, for some god forgotten reason, you organized a full raid to deal with griefing, it's not Méep that is broken, but you that are doing something stupid.
Fifth: If you are dealing with some tower wars, they have fixer and meep right after they see something moving: they were griefing; on the time they meeped, you won. If it is a zerg vs zerg tower war, they will not meep right way, but only after they lost callers and/or docs, and when it happens you pretty much won as well. Manage to track down their fixers and shut then down inbefore the meep is just a bonus.
If the OP say "The towers have to few hp and die too quickly. Fix towers!" I would agree.
If the OP say "There are too few ways to prevent a meep. Give someone a nano to prevent it!" I would agree.
But the OP says "Meep is annoying and broken. Nerf it!" and I think its pure selfish.
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
Gatester, if you are talking about fixers using meeps as a team escape method while the team is actively engaged in team PVP, then I'm rather confused.
Fixers are not immune to having their nano skills shut down, and they are certainly not immune to being alphastriked. If you have two teams actively engaged against one another, and one side feels it is the stronger side and wants to keep the other side on the field, they can nuke the other team's fixer as their highest priority.
If both teams want PVP, then that fixer being alpha striked might simply go to full defensive, pop some perks, and try to ride out the alpha strike long enough for his team to get him healed or kill some enemy dps.
Yes it's annoying for fixers and their teams to simply meep out, but there isn't a problem with them doing so IMHO, if they are not using the mechanic as a metagaming tool to reduce the effectiveness of tower field defenses by simply boring/frustrating the enemy to the point where they don't bother defending effectively any longer.
When used as a GTFO PVE or PVP escape tool, meeping works perfectly. It's when it gets abused as a griefing tool in tower PVP that it's a recognized problem. But we can fix that with tower/field mechanics without changing anything about the way meeping works for everywhere else in the game.
How does a Crat completely shut down meep?
I don't think the majority of the game (PvM) happens in zones where team evac is possible, let alone makes sense.
*only*? Gooby pls. Fixers also have roots, aoe snares, snare reducers, evade debuffs, and, the pièce de résistance, wake-up call.
You gained 96 PVP Solo Score.
Angelyna: (03:55) Srompu forces your NCU to run Feet of Stone...
[Theater of Tragedy] Johnnykay: he's a 220 crat and srompu is probably wearing tl5 symbs
[Theater of Tragedy] Johnnykay: he deserved to die
@Lazy
I did mean a separate suggestion rather than entirely agreeing with the OP. I see no reason why the fixer should be unable to instantly cast his team meep and run for a few seconds until it actually kicks in. This would actually allow your incredible tactic of "ganking from conceal" to work in a realistic way, where a fixer who is generally supported by team buffs is near impossible to kill in .25 seconds (typical human reaction time to red text appearing).
I assumed my comment would be interpreted differently when I mentioned a few given that a few can be no where near 10.
I did enough s10 on that fixer to go from AI 2 to capping AI 20 while still killing a few thousand additional aliens. I believe that is a considerable amount of PVE myself, and practically the majority of the PVE content being done in which team instant meep nanos are a functional tool.
Considering the majority of the game does not allow for the use of Instant Grid Nanos to even function, you have to start identifying exactly what content would suffer from any sort of delay in casting. Additionally, Instant Grid Nanos function in practically all areas of PVP, with the only real limitation consisting of Battlestation PVP.
Instant grid warping means a no-penalty and no-risk escape tool from death in PVP, alternatively I cannot think of any instance of PVE content in which a team would have fully escaped had a grid warp been instantly cast as opposed to being entirely annihilated because it took 3 seconds to grid warp instead.
Regardless of the percentage of the game which is actually PVE as opposed to PVP content, the majority of instant team grid warps does occur in PVP, and by a massive margin as well.
Does nothing for entire teams being meeped from fights in places like borealis, which is a personal issue I have and therefore something I argue to restrict. Losers shouldn't just be allowed to disappear because they fail. There are no penalties for dieing in this game, why do people fight so hard against it? Is that not most of what makes professions like enforcers, adventurers, doctors, and engineers seem so overpowered some times, the fact that they do not die as easily as others?
Huh? I might be misunderstanding what you wrote but are you saying meeps aren't possible in PvM?
If so, every leveling team on RK (yes, RK. That thing that exists, and has existed, for longer than SL. Some might even point out it's the core of the game) would disagree with you. You realize not everybody sits in a kite team on a hill in Elysium and tries to convince themselves that's really "PvM"?
Again though, correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. It's early in the morning here and I might just be missing something.
Sorry for the lack of clarity in my wording but I meant variety in PvM. You have done a lot of S10 I agree, but S10 and the odd occasion of going elsewhere does not give you a sufficient idea of how and when a "legit" team meep can work in PvM. I disagree with your view that the majority of PvM content where team meeps are a functional tool can be found in S10. S10 is only 1 playfield and there are a lot of others out there, something that commonly seems to get forgotten on these forums.
Some examples of where they have been useful other than S10:
- RK team missions
- Inner Sanctum
- Mort/PW borgs
- RK raids such as Mercs
- Endgame raids such as APF
I could go on...
...wait, what?
The "majority" of the game? Really?
Because in my experience it's only SL where instant grid nanos can't be used and even then fixers can shortcut straight to the fgrid on RK through gardens using that one nano I've forgotten the name of at this moment in time. Comes from a box in Inf key quests.
Same thing that I said to Sromp: you realize not everybody sits in a kite team on a hill in Elysium and tries to convince themselves that's really "PvM"? RK is a thing that exists. It's arguably more a core part of the game than SL. (Note to the dev team: please make RK relevant to the extent that it is at least on par with SL again. Sick of seeing people who need to be reminded that RK exists.)
Gods I can't believe I'm made to argue in defense of PvM because the rest of you are so short-sighted. I sound like a f*cking carebear.
So put in a PvP-centric tool if you really have to so much. Like, I dunno, an anti-meep tower.
I've already said in my previous reply that your proposal is not quite as game-breaking for every other aspect of AO than the one situation of griefed towers as the original cast time suggested (10 seconds). Hell, for froobs at least, the top team meep already takes a couple of seconds to cast at the lower range at which they can cast it anyway.
3 seconds wouldn't be game-breaking. 10 seconds would.
If everybody would be willing to take 3 seconds as the new proposed cast time instead of 10, that would at least make this discussion less polarizing.
So put in a PvP-centric tool if you really have to so much. Like, I dunno, an anti-meep tower.
And I do agree with you on this sentiment. You've seen me roll my eyes at people like that before. But a distinction needs to be made between uses in PvP and PvM.
In regards to Bor, they should also make zoning into backyards impossible if you are held in combat. That would solve a lot of problems, but I'm probably digressing...
In any case, the OP seems to be talking specifically about meeps in relation to towers, and even more specifically about the griefers using them. In every other aspect of PvP (if you can even call griefing PvP) it is much easier to debuff a fixer to the point where it will have more than its usual trouble meeping because you have more of an opportunity to do so: there are no towers to offer them a distraction to Q-AFK and then meep at the first sign of trouble. Init debuffs, drains, NSD, etc. Griefing at towers is only ONE type of scenario in ONE aspect of the game.
Because the people who have caused threads like the OP's to be posted (meaning the griefers, not the OP)... wait for it...
...ARE NOT LOOKING FOR PVP.
How many times does this have to be said.
They are "resisting" because they never intended to put themselves in the situation where they'd need to fight.
They only want to see you get mad enough to post threads like this on the forums.
Here, I've made a quick guide to solve all our problems:
Step 1: Stick in some anti-meep towers. Make them slow down the cast time of meeps to, I dunno, 30 seconds or something if they don't block it outright.
Step 2: Ignore the giggling twerps who are only ringing on your doorbell and then running away. (Bring a debuffer along like a crat or trader if you really really can't resist getting baited by trolls. My fixer got killed most often by NTs, try one of those. But for gods' sakes remember that you are walking right into it if you do this and you forgo your right to whine about it afterwards.)
Step 3: Go find some people who actually want to PvP like PvPers. Real PvPers, not griefers or epeen nutjobs who will zone or meep at the first sign of danger.
Step 4: Congratulations, you are now having fun and making much better use of your game time.
I'm off to go get some damn coffee.
Last edited by Ahndracorvid; Jun 25th, 2013 at 10:21:56.
:E
Fear. Last time I checked, they still had it.
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
Problem with that is fixers have Experienced Survivor. However, even Malaise alone without all the tapes would slow down the cast time of a meep considerably, and unlike UBT can't be removed using Wake Up Call.
Last edited by Ahndracorvid; Jun 25th, 2013 at 11:14:30. Reason: clarification
:E
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