Funcom , why do you penalize and nerf PVMers over PVPers issues... (NSD NERF)

[Obtena]

I will admit the choice of the change is strange but I still see how it's inline with the direction of the game.

[Manaas]

How about you gear your "key" team properly instead of just sitting them there level 160 alts in medsuits?

[Esquire]

I'm a little too much of a noob to understand the NERF that most are talking about (currently highest toon is a 104 advy) but thru the last 10 years I have plenty of experience with NERFS/CHANGES.

Played SWG for 8 years, lived thru the CU, NGE, and C6CD. There were plenty of NERFS/CHANGES to go around there. EVERY time SOE Austin pulled these, the playerbase was cut by large numbers. At CU we lost aprox. 50K + players, NGE - we lost 150K players +, and again at C6CD the playerbase was cut in half. Anyone that was there could easily take from the experience that NERFS/CHANGES cause /ragequit that the game in question NEVER recovers from. Most long term players have seen this in whatever game they've tried.

I read that even the mighty Bliz done a study on why the were losing subs in WoW. Their answer was NERFS/CHANGES to the core of a profession/gameplay. Some big epiphany there, huh?

NERFs may indeed be the easy route for developers to take but once they have set that bar, players rely upon it for their own gameplay. Perhaps devs need to look towards "adding" to the professions that are lacking instead of taking away something from another profession for "balance". The argument against this is basic "power-creep" but that is easily rectified by adding new content with added difficulty/rewards to balance out the PVE equation. However, this game with content some 80 levels ahead of the players would take a boat-load of "power-creep" to make that content solo-able and easy.

When will developers get it thru their heads that NERFS cause loss of subs and they're basicly causing the demise of their own game? (see NGE, again)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

When will developers get it thru their heads that NERFS cause loss of subs and they're basicly causing the demise of their own game? (see NGE, again)

Got a reference for that?

Sounds like a bunch of heresy.

[Esquire]

Got a reference for that?

Sounds like a bunch of heresy.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2008/06...e-re-examined/

You can google SWG NGE and find all kinds of opinions/comments. But this one if fairly newer and even calls Dan Rubenfield's (infamous NGE dev) blog out, which I still have the unedited version of, before SOE called him and told him to calm it down a boat-load.

You can also google the Combat Upgrade or CU as it's called that was a combat re-vamp which included almost a NERF or 10 to every profession (and there was 32 of them then) along with Chapter 6 or C6, I and almost all the playerbase called it The Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade or C6CD which "split the " prof "talent" systems (large NERF to DPS and/or tanking for jedi in general) and delegated 1/2 of the prof (lightside) to nothing more than a PVE tank, not designed for PVP gameplay and stated so by the lead developer (Blixtev) at the time cause he just didn't have the time to fix them.

You mean you have never seen, in your years of playing MMOs, any players /ragequit over a NERF/CHANGE? I guess I've been a guild leader for far too long and seen it 1 too many times to validate even 1 more NERF, no matter how much I want it in my own gameplay for so-called "balance" or even revenge. We called that period in time, over at SWG, "NERF WARS" where if some1 killed you in PVP, just hit the forums and scream. The NERF will be on next weeks patch.

And my years of playing MMOs, I have NEVER seen a NERF work out like the devs intended. They NERF an OP class into oblivion and another steps up to take it place, is just as OP, and the forums erupt (again) with "NERF this other guy". You also run the risk of the inevitable NERF bat being swung way too hard, which happens more than anyone would wish, and that prof becomes the under-powered which the entire playerbase gravitates away from, the ones who wish to continue with the game and bring up yet another profession to play as their main.

And in a game like AO, bringing up another toon to 220, PVP stacked,, twinked into 300 gear, with all the little items that the game has to offer is not a day long, week long, month long commitment. It's like SWG was, before the "dark times", before the NGE, a long, long time in coming that most players will simply chose not to do all over again. Hense, /ragequit.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The alternate is power creep.

Take your pick.

Anyway, this whole "NERF" concept is pretty far flung. you're better off thinking about it in terms of "lateral adjustments and mechanism shift for profession inclusion in standard gameplay"

That way, you won't get hung up on "AMG MY GUY IS SO NERF", instead, you'll be thinking "in light of proposed changes, what new setups, what new weapons are open to me?" and "with the proposed changes, what mechanisms are becoming weaker, and which are becoming stronger?" and "if proposed changes go live, I predict a gradual shift in power between prof X and Prof Y, which will make A,B,C more valuable... I'm gunna hedge my bets though, and buy up some of K,L,M in case I'm wrong"

[Bambam]

I read that even the mighty Bliz done a study on why the were losing subs in WoW. Their answer was NERFS/CHANGES to the core of a profession/gameplay.

Blizzard's "study" is a bit meh though. When you unsubscribe you have to pick a reason from 5-6 choices or you can't unsubscribe. Since I didn't feel any of those matched my reason I just picked the first choice to get through it.

And I'm sure others did as well.

[Esquire]

SWG had the same kinda deal when some1 unsubed. Chose 1 of their pre-fit answers. To be honest, I doubt if SOE even took into consideration their exit surveys at all. They seemed to do exactly what they wanted to do and " da%n the torpedoes", so to speak.

It appears that Bliz does almost the same with the removal of even their talent system with pandas. It is interesting to follow the repercussions of their decisions with the millions leaving that game now altho that game does have millions to lose. There are repercussions to decisions, every one of them.

My group. at least, is here in AO due to player "freedoms" and not "dev control". We want to build a toon for the playstyle we chose and not 1 that fits into the "working as intended" slot. Right now, I'm working on a Advy that will end up using Sword of Dusk/Dawn (improved versions) which the 1 guy in our guild that has 8 years of experience in AO, says will be a major mistake. He may indeed be correct, however the mechanics in AO lets me try it, anyway. It's that freedom that appeals to most of us and the amount of dev control which takes into account NERFS as it's means of dev control, usually takes that freedom out of the equation and you end up feeling you "might as well go play WoW" and surrender all the freedom of builds and choices over to the dev team with a long-term history of NERF this, NERF that, under a players belt. It's nice to find another game that allows this much choice again.

It all seems to me to be all a developer mindset. Personally, I can handle power creep a boat-load easier than "NERF WARS". And this game could allow for a bunch of power creep without affecting it in a large manner, simply by the end game content being 80 levels over the player. Another way to keep away from power creep is to test whatever adds before putting them into the game. That falls on developers as well as players. They have to put it up for testing and then believe the feedback they're getting and we have to take the time to actually test and post that feedback. This was done, altho a little too late over in SWG as well, when Teesquared (we called him T2) took over as producer the last 2 years of SWG's history. Interesting to note that before the closure (when they lost their IP license due to TOR) that SOE reported a upswing in subs in the last 2 years, only the front office just couldn't figure out why. That was easy, developers were working with the playerbase instead of against it and that 2 years I can't remember even 1 NERF in a patch, just adds the entire time.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

endgame content isn't 80 levels over player.

one SL ding = 5 normal dings.

Mob XP level is linear 1=1, Player XP level is linear for first 200 levels 1=1, then for SL dings, it's also linear, but at a rate of 1 level = 5 mob levels.

The result is that as you approach endgame the player "feels" like he's more powerful because he can go toe to toe with a level 300 mob.

It's just psychological bullsh*t though built into cheap mechanics, which, low and behold, screwed up PVP range balance in game (note how many threads complain about it).

[Psikie]

The result is that as you approach endgame the player "feels" like he's more powerful because he can go toe to toe with a level 300 mob.

250 ACE mobs yes, 300 toe to toe might be pushing lol.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

250 ACE mobs yes, 300 toe to toe might be pushing lol.

I've beaten the piss out of level 267 hackers solo on my MA.

That's not far off 300.

I admit, 300 might be pushing it, but it's not so far off that it's not plausible.



The main point I was trying to make though, is that 220 player level is better represented by 300 mob level than 220 mob level is.

220 players have QL 300 implants/symbiants, QL 300 armour, QL 300 weapons, QL 250-300 NCU's, QL 250+ nanos, and a large array of perks for both offense and defence.

We're more QL 300 than we are QL 220 if you catch my meaning.

[Traderjill]

Well 220+30+70=320

[Aimzor]

Some sided mob's in gardens are lvl 300 and very much doable solo

lvl 300 isn't far off from lvl 300

[Esquire]

endgame content isn't 80 levels over player.

one SL ding = 5 normal dings.

Mob XP level is linear 1=1, Player XP level is linear for first 200 levels 1=1, then for SL dings, it's also linear, but at a rate of 1 level = 5 mob levels.

The result is that as you approach endgame the player "feels" like he's more powerful because he can go toe to toe with a level 300 mob.

It's just psychological bullsh*t though built into cheap mechanics, which, low and behold, screwed up PVP range balance in game (note how many threads complain about it).

/agree that PVP "balance" seems to be the 1st casualty in any dev action, either NERFs or adds. This is why I fully advocate player testing, expecialy from the PVP community, for any dev action while the proposed change in on test and hasn't made it to live.

I'm still looking forward to seeing what a level 220, twinked into the best gear, can actually do at endgame. That can be quite the long-term mini-game, for me at least, to push the barrier and get that or free up that one more point in whatever. I've been called a "min/maxer" several times before and will probably be again over here.

I've seen power creep. My jedi over in SWG could solo the end game 8 man group instance (HK) in the musti expansion but there were really very few of us that could do that and push it that far. And then, it was only the min/max crowd and 99% of that crowd were avid PVP players. But after SOE Austin saw HK being soloed, they countered with putting a time limit on the instance and later added more endgame instances (heroics) which were not soloable. The new content was appreciated and the drops in HK became not so wanted anylonger by the addition of the new instances which held better so farming HK was not so much of a big deal anylonger.

There are just so many ways for developers to take on a "balance" problem other than taking something away that some players have gotten used to in their own gameplay.

[Esssch]

Well 220+30+70=320

Really it's 200 + (20*5) + 30 + 70 = 400
Each SL level is equivalent to 5 RK levels

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Really it's 200 + (20*5) + 30 + 70 = 400
Each SL level is equivalent to 5 RK levels

I disagree that LE dings are worth 1 normal level each.

They are pretty powerful, but the early on ones maybe only add a little bit of stats and stuff. They are useful, but they certainly don't add to everything the way that a real ding with IP expenditure adds to a skill.

[Psikie]

I've always considered fully 220/30/70 to be equal to 250 mob similar to dustbrigade or nerveta mobs, when I think of ql300 mobs I lean toward bosses like Ian Warr/Vortexx. (froob v paid)

[Esssch]

I disagree that LE dings are worth 1 normal level each.

They are pretty powerful, but the early on ones maybe only add a little bit of stats and stuff. They are useful, but they certainly don't add to everything the way that a real ding with IP expenditure adds to a skill.

Well neither do AI levels.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well neither do AI levels.

I agree.

I only counted SL dings as worth 5 RK dings, so 200+20*5=300