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Thread: Monthly Development Update – 31st July, 2013

  1. #61
    The term pay to win has been redefined so many times, the fanbois will only accept a literal I-Win button for £££ that autokills the raidboss/player and twinks the loot on for you as 'P2W'. Anything less is obviously just fine and dandy and A-OK and does absolutely no harm at all to the game, the game's economy, the community etc. We're clearly all just jealous that IRL we don't earn as much money to shell out on it all, there can't possibly be any other reason like - oh I dunno, wanting to play the sodding game to acquire our in game stuff. The game gets left in a horribly grindy, boring, repetative mess specifically to encourage people to spend the ££ here and there to relieve the unpleasentness. It highlights flaws in the game design: why is it so irritating to play through in the first place? It also explains why it reels in the £££ instead of the tedium being fixed.

    (Here's a rather nice article that focuses mainly on P2W FB games and their ilk but it explains the broader strategies of paying for pain-relief from tedium: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Ramin...ion_Tricks.php )

    Anyway. IMO Power items for cash, especially if buying them for £££ circumvents some kind of in-game restrictions (like profession, level, faction etc) are what I would classify as Pay To Win but as we've already seen, everyone has their own threshold. AO crossed that line for me a long time ago.

    Ophiuchus : 220/30/80 HAHA etc
    Nahuatl
    :: 220/30/80 Melee 4lyfe
    Khurkh :: 220/30/80 healtankpew
    Transcendence
    Msanthropic
    : 210/26/60 nanostab
    Spidershiva :: 165/23/42 kite? eh?
    Silentmotion
    : 150/20/42 tankthink
    The Union

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post

    Also if you think all I do is 'piss and moan' stick your head into Fourth Wall some time.
    It's true. Raggy is nothing next to me in the pissing and moaning department.

    p.s. He's right.
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    OTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTO|||||||||||||||||||||Serve Omni-Tek
    TOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOT||||||||||||||||||||Join the ROTFLMAO
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  3. #63
    Okay. I wasn't gonna bother joining this argument because... well, arguing on the internet lolz. So I'm only going to say this once.

    YOU GUYS. There is no need to compare AO to Insert Name Of Some Other Game here. AO is not that other game, it is AO. That's the whole damn point of what some people have been trying to say.

    ...right then. Carry on, folks.
    :E

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Sorry, there is a rather large difference between convenience and buying powerful equipment that lets you win, that you can't obtain through playing the game.
    Not in terms of defining it as P2W or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    Time is a commodity and a resource yes. It is however something that you will have to spend in order to become good.
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    If you could buy all the items in the game and the means to equip them, and fought someone who had gained those items through playing the game, you'd still not have a P2W scenario.
    Wrong.

    At this point it's important to point out the context of what I said, since context is always the first casualty on AO forums. The quote I responded to with my post was a general attempt at nailing down what P2W is. So I answered in that context. You seem to have a very AO-centric view on what I said.

    There is no difference between "Convenience" and P2W. You may WISH to look at things in a case by case basis but this is not how "law" or "rules" work. You don't get to deem one thing "P2W" and another thing "not P2W" when they are by definition the same thing. By that I mean, Convenience 1 and convenience 2 are and should be the same when it comes to rulesets. Otherwise the rules mean nothing. So again, remember, I'm talking about a general definition of P2W here, not a case by case basis. Also, P2W is a term that is wide enough to encompass things that isn't directly tied to time or power. It also includes things like sense of achievement, sense of uniqueness and such.

    Convenience is the same as P2W because time is a resource and convenience revolves around that.

    You say that "time is a resource yes but it's something you have to spend in order to become good". First of all, that's wrong. Again, remember I'm talking about P2W in general, not just AO. There are plenty of games that doesn't require "training", where gear or stats is all you need to succeed. And you are even making the weird mistake of assuming that someone who buys progress ends up equal to (or worse than) someone who spends their time playing that progress. This is just wrong. The fact you seem to forget here is that you have to compare them when they both spent the same amount of time on the game. At which point they both learned to play the game equally. Don't think that someone who spends money are unable to learn the game as well as someone who don't. It can even be said, in some games, that the person that spend RL money is BETTER at the game than the guy who didn't. Because the guy who spent money to progress got to "endgame" quicker and as such had MORE TIME to learn how to play well at that level.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 1st, 2013 at 13:12:57.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    Not in terms of defining it as P2W or not.




    Wrong.



    Wrong.

    At this point it's important to point out the context of what I said, since context is always the first casualty on AO forums. The quote I responded to with my post was a general attempt at nailing down what P2W is. So I answered in that context. You seem to have a very AO-centric view on what I said.

    There is no difference between "Convenience" and P2W. You may WISH to look at things in a case by case basis but this is not how "law" or "rules" work. You don't get to deem one thing "P2W" and another thing "not P2W" when they are by definition the same thing. By that I mean, Convenience 1 and convenience 2 are and should be the same when it comes to rulesets. Otherwise the rules mean nothing. So again, remember, I'm talking about a general definition of P2W here, not a case by case basis. Also, P2W is a term that is wide enough to encompass things that isn't directly tied to time or power. It also includes things like sense of achievement, sense of uniqueness and such.

    Convenience is the same as P2W because time is a resource and convenience revolves around that.

    You say that "time is a resource yes but it's something you have to spend in order to become good". First of all, that's wrong. Again, remember I'm talking about P2W in general, not just AO. There are plenty of games that doesn't require "training", where gear or stats is all you need to succeed. And you are even making the weird mistake of assuming that someone who buys progress ends up equal to (or worse than) someone who spends their time playing that progress. This is just wrong. The fact you seem to forget here is that you have to compare them when they both spent the same amount of time on the game. At which point they both learned to play the game equally. Don't think that someone who spends money are unable to learn the game as well as someone who don't. It can even be said, in some games, that the person that spend RL money is BETTER at the game than the guy who didn't. Because the guy who spent money to progress got to "endgame" quicker and as such had MORE TIME to learn how to play well at that level.
    I am talking in a very general sense of the term. It's the absolute same definition. Would you consider League of Legends P2W? You can buy champions, runepages, to boost your versatility, XP boosts and "Influence Point" boosts and cosmetic changes with real money. However, you can not buy the skill required to play the game, nor any advantage in the game other than the ability to have more champions to choose between. The game is completely free to play, and you can buy everything but skins and runepages with your ingame earned rewards.

    As in, is the mere idea of being able to buy something in the game enough to make it pay to win? If it is, then there's really no debating, is there, because you don't distinguish between the ability of the player to play and understand the game with just having everything in the game.

    And no, I am not making the assumption that you end up worse for having spent money to buy x. No, since we're talking about the convenience of the thing, we're seeing that the guy who buys everything in 10 minutes of booting up the game for the first time and has everything has not "won", because going up against anyone who has spent time accruing gear, that could even be a lot worse, will be able to beat this person at most things that require anything but standing still and waiting for autoattacks to resolve.

    Again, time is a resource that you will have to invest into the game in order to get anything out of your monetary investment. You may be slightly faster at the "absolute end" where total mastery as well as complete inventory is achieved than the guy who had to grind 5000 hours to get some absurdly rare drop, but other than that, you're completely equal in footing.
    Last edited by Mastablasta; Aug 1st, 2013 at 13:38:50.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Genele View Post
    [*] A portable vendor nano and nano can.
    [list][*] Access to the Trader shop for non trader characters.
    [list]
    [*] A treatment transfer twinking nano can.
    [list]
    Guys, it's not a singleplayer-game. What is the point w professions the way game is now?

    Same w selling sided replica-armor to the oposite side. VERY bad taste of FC.
    Last edited by leetlover; Aug 1st, 2013 at 14:13:20.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    I am talking in a very general sense of the term. It's the absolute same definition. Would you consider League of Legends P2W?
    Ah now I see where we differ. It's not so much on the actual definition, it's how we apply that definition.

    I think the main point we clash on is simply this: (and correct me if I'm wrong of course)

    You are thinking of P2W atm as an absolute. Either a game is P2W or it isn't. Now, this is true, because you CAN label a game as P2W or not, though this is mostly a subjective thing. Some games are so overtly P2W that it can become objective fact but most games don't fall into that extreme category.

    I am thinking of P2W in terms of a gradient. I think of it like this:

    All ingame stuff sold for RL cash that ISN'T purely visual or such, is P2W by definition. So every game that is free to play and sell XP boosters or anything like that, has P2W elements in them. These elements are P2W by simply existing. The size of them doesn't matter at this point. The only question here is if a game like LoL or Tribes Ascend or whatever is too much P2W for you or not. It's a subjective call to make. But by my standards, these games are all P2W to SOME degree simply by having that element in them. The size of the element doesn't matter. It's mere presence is enough. The rest is simply a matter of degree.

    And this is why so many things are easily qualified as P2W. Whether or not you think that makes the game itself "P2W" or not is up to you.

    The REASON why I think of these things like this, is because I am always against thinking about something in a way where subjective angles become "fact". One person's apple is another man's orange. So I just call them all fruits first of all and then let the rest be up for debate. Meaning, I call P2W mechanics P2W, and then I let people make up their own minds as to whether or not this makes a game "P2W".
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Aug 1st, 2013 at 14:12:53.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    As is now, with the itemshop, you can just pay for items, turn them into credits, buy lootrights for everything you need and create an awesome toon that you didn't do very much to equip. Where's the glory or achievement in that?
    Welcome to egpal Jill. Lootright-selling in itself is a sympthom of a problem. U should get stuff by playing the game. It is 100% fc's fault that teams are narrowed down and stuff being less accessible.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  9. #69
    The reason me and my friends love(d) AO was the feeling of acomplishment everytime you reached a turning point of your character, twinked on a new item you couldn't before, solved a hard, team-required quest,.. etc.

    Every non-social item put on the item store takes out a chunk of AO's glory and unique'ness.

    On one side FC tries to revitalize the game with the NPE and engine update.
    On the other side they kill off motivation to STAY on the game with their cash-grab item shop mentality.

    Just makes no sense to me..

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by leetlover View Post
    Welcome to egpal Jill. Lootright-selling in itself is a sympthom of a problem. U should get stuff by playing the game. It is 100% fc's fault that teams are narrowed down and stuff being less accessible.
    So if the loot was yesdrop, it wouldn't be a problem?
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta View Post
    So if the loot was yesdrop, it wouldn't be a problem?
    I think the idea behind nodrop is to reward players for doing (and winning) the content.
    Disclaimer: My posts should not be read by anyone.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    Ah now I see where we differ. It's not so much on the actual definition, it's how we apply that definition.

    I think the main point we clash on is simply this: (and correct me if I'm wrong of course)

    You are thinking of P2W atm as an absolute. Either a game is P2W or it isn't. Now, this is true, because you CAN label a game as P2W or not, though this is mostly a subjective thing. Some games are so overtly P2W that it can become objective fact but most games don't fall into that extreme category.

    I am thinking of P2W in terms of a gradient. I think of it like this:

    All ingame stuff sold for RL cash that ISN'T purely visual or such, is P2W by definition. So every game that is free to play and sell XP boosters or anything like that, has P2W elements in them. These elements are P2W by simply existing. The size of them doesn't matter at this point. The only question here is if a game like LoL or Tribes Ascend or whatever is too much P2W for you or not. It's a subjective call to make. But by my standards, these games are all P2W to SOME degree simply by having that element in them. The size of the element doesn't matter. It's mere presence is enough. The rest is simply a matter of degree.

    And this is why so many things are easily qualified as P2W. Whether or not you think that makes the game itself "P2W" or not is up to you.

    The REASON why I think of these things like this, is because I am always against thinking about something in a way where subjective angles become "fact". One person's apple is another man's orange. So I just call them all fruits first of all and then let the rest be up for debate. Meaning, I call P2W mechanics P2W, and then I let people make up their own minds as to whether or not this makes a game "P2W".
    and there's the difference between what something is defined as, and what people's opinion defined it as.

    P2W started as a 'you had to buy X item' to compete or be endgame or survive etc. The best example of this I can think offhand is RFO where they use potions to heal, and the highest you could buy w/ ingame moneys were 2k's and you could only buy 3k pots w/ irl moneys.

    And somewhere along the line, P2W became a cliche for buying non social items in a cashshop.

    f2p and p2w are linked. AO is still P2P so its not P2W by default.

    and debump for bastardizing professions.

  13. #73
    Pay to Win:

    1) Selling items or stat increases for real world money which are necessary for gameplay.
    Example: An AOE taunt for soldiers which would only be available for real world currency from an item shop.

    2) Selling access to raids or events that have unique gear or earlier access to gear for players to gain an advantage over non-paying players.
    Example: An item sold for real world money which grants AI tech 1, 2, and 3 at level 1, while no similar items are in existence elsewhere.

    3) Selling things which allow players to have an advantage over other players in a scenario which would have otherwise been an equal situation.
    Example: Two equally skilled players are competing in a task, both would tie, however something from the shop allows one player to "win" over another due to items they purchased with real world money, i.e: a 100% complete healing stim with a 60 second cooldown and only purchasable from the item shop.

    4) Selling items which allow players to avoid group/raid content by giving them the rewards without participation.
    Example: Selling Burden of Competence or Xan Weapon Upgrades in the item shop.

    5) Selling items which allow players to take bypass other players who are waiting for content to begin via queue's.
    Example: Selling an item which places you first in line for the battlestation queue rather than at the end of the queue, thus preventing players who signed up first from having priority entry.


    What Pay to Win is not:

    1) Selling items or stat increases which are not necessary for gameplay but may effect non-gameplay time.
    Example: Temporary stat buff items which cancel upon beginning content, used only for preparing characters for the actual content itself.

    2) Selling items which reduce the length of non-gameplay time.
    Example: An item which allows a player to warp back to a main city after content such as a raid or mission has been completed.

    3) Selling items which can be acquired through non-team based means, or solo content.
    Example: Selling viralbots in the item shop.



    Now before the reading impaired responses, I do not agree that viralbots should be sold in the item shop, I am merely pointing out that they are not pay-to-win examples. In this case, viralbots are a plentiful item which can be acquired by players through non-intensive gameplay and do not require teams to obtain. Gameplay would certainly be altered, and I feel it would be altered in a negative way if viralbots were being sold, but players who do not purchase viralbots from an item shop can still acquire their own without the use of a team, and the viralbots would be no different from standard drops either.


    For things like GMI access or bank access, this would fall under the NOT number 2 catergory. Checking the GMI or accessing a bank typically requires players to cease gameplay functions, leave whatever content they are currently participating in, and venture into non-combat or non-gameplay locations. Arguing that access to these two negatively impacts participation in content is simply nonsense, and the lack of this access for everyone is detrimental to the content itself by forcing players to delay their progress.

    Saying that players SHOULD roll a trader for portable GMI access and SHOULD roll a crat for portable bank access is akin to telling players they SHOULD roll characters to complete managerial tasks rather than to utilize their toolsets in game based content. Professions should be created based on their functions in teams or solo content, not based on their ability to manage inventories.


    Grid warping abilities are also going to fall under NOT number 2, but not just because they reduce the length of non-gameplay time but because warping abilities already exist in other forms which are accessible to all professions. The only difference is the speed at which these items take affect, which is just players being obnoxious when they claim these things are profession specific. If the only reason your profession is being teamed is due to an ability to warp seconds faster than another profession, then perhaps your profession is broken and needs improvements rather than holding onto something that does not actually help complete content?


    Some of the changes may be fundamentally wrong, but nothing in the item shop is currently pay to win. Arguing it is is nothing more than ignorance of the term. What some of you are attempting to argue is that the enjoyment and desire to play profession A is impeded by the existence of particular items which are sold for real world money. This is a personal opinion and cannot be argued against, however it can certainly be argued that your personal opinions are just that and do not account for the desires nor opinions of other players.

  14. #74
    @Jill

    For the computer literacy thing, I know there is a limit to how much items can be sold for because I know players who have attempted to use "unlimited" levels of computer literacy to sell and buy items and indicated a failure to surpass certain values. A common sense approach would be that eventually items would sell for more than you buy them for if computer literacy had no cap on effectiveness, and therefore players could generate infinite amounts of credits at an eventual point. The trader shop sells items for a trader at close to the premium value, and maximizing computer literacy has limited benefit at this shop.

    More credits being generated in-game can be contributed primarily to many areas outside of selling "shop food" to shop terminals as well. I should not have to list them all, I think we can reasonably assume where most of the credits are from now.



    As for fewer people rolling traders, crats, and fixers now because of item shop additions, that is highly subjective and difficult to even prove. When the portable GMI was introduced I stopped using my "portable GMI" level 25 trader alt and instead focused on playing my level 1 trader and my TL7 trader in actual content. My fixer was still used in 150 PVP and my crat leveled to 220 and raided constantly. The only thing I stopped doing was logging alts or saying "Brb, I need to go to my bank real quick" and used the items my characters had. In this way, raids were able to occur more frequently and more easily, my teammates were convenienced by the fact that I was able to remain with them to accomplish managerial tasks.

    How has gameplay diminished rather than improved due to these additions is not an argument I am seeing validated. What I am seeing is that "it has always been this way, now it is different, and now I must complain."

  15. #75
    http://imgur.com/GoCGke7

    'Nuff said.

    My Gimp skills are somewhat lacking but it would also be good to reflect other important milestones such as AoC launch, TSW launch, Nanocan Fever, Ingot Gold Rush, but perhaps most importantly, the number of fathers and mothers as head game designer/producer this poor b*st*rd child has had over the time, which undoubtedly impacts not only the quality of the work, but also the community and server population as well.

    my 2 creds worth.
    Last edited by Mastura; Aug 2nd, 2013 at 01:44:04. Reason: added "but also"
    Shadow Ops
    Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.
    They'll say we're disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.
    Tired of little elves with bows? Fed up with spell-flinging goblins? Bored to death by the solitary world of linear games? Despair not. Freedom is on its way, and its name is Anarchy Online.
    Web: http://www.shadowops-online.org | Twitter: @ShadowOpsOnline | AO: Milestones & History


  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastura View Post
    http://imgur.com/GoCGke7

    'Nuff said.

    My Gimp skills are somewhat lacking but it would also be good to reflect other important milestones such as AoC launch, TSW launch, Nanocan Fever, Ingot Gold Rush, but perhaps most importantly, the number of fathers and mothers as head game designer/producer this poor b*st*rd child has had over the time, which undoubtedly impacts not only the quality of the work, but also the community and server population as well.

    my 2 creds worth.
    only problem w/ that is the blue portion starts way too high on that time-line


    Bump for rez sickness removing items in itemshop ++ giving mp/trader's some nano ability to do the same thing.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatester View Post
    As for fewer people rolling traders, crats, and fixers now because of item shop additions, that is highly subjective and difficult to even prove.
    Crats, I would say, are currently the number 1 rolled profession in the last 4 months.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    Crats, I would say, are currently the number 1 rolled profession in the last 4 months.
    *years
    Solgier
    Algar (almost) Pure DD crat
    Docgar
    Elithas

  19. #79
    So, we can pay to win eh? I've been thinking about this - Quick quiz.

    1) If you were to sell an itemshop item for ingame creds, which one would give best creds for your funcom points? Breed change? Token packs?
    And,
    2) How much real life cash would actually be needed to get the billions of IG creds to deck out a 220 in AI armor symbs and possible LRs?

    Fyi, its 30€ for 3600 FC points, the price of a 1K token pack.
    The only pack i saw on GMI was 800M, though I dont know if that is realistic. Breed change looks to float around the 400M mark?

    I know my RL bank balance can't afford that. I am genuinely curious for all this righteous indignation over the "P2W" of the itemshop, just how much actually goes on? And of course even if this hypothetical 'bought 220' existed, the large amount of euros/dollars is actually going to FC which would (hopefully) help prolong the life of the game we all play. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Fhinn; Aug 2nd, 2013 at 10:50:52. Reason: shocking formatting, as usual!
    'Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.'

    Fhinn, TL7 Neutral Gunslinger // Countinn, TL5 Neutral Trader
    Sleekitt TL5 Clan Fixer

    Shattered Dreams, of ye olde RK2 Recruitment thread

  20. #80
    Breed change is around the 350~400M mark.
    1K token packs normally are around the 400M mark as well, the 800M you saw would be an outlier.

    So realistically, you'd want ~25 token packs or breed changes to sell @ 400M a pop to deck a char out in CC/CSS, Alphas, etc.

    220s "Wakizaka", "Sneakygank", "Wakimango", "Wakisolja", "Tardersauce", "Bushwaki", "Midgetgank", "Bugfixxx", "Ramsbottom", "Paskadoc"
    200s Chrisd, Malema, Delbaeth
    TL5s Youfail, Bugfixx, Riothamus, Johndee

    Proud President of Haven | TL5 PvP


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