My glass cannon build

[walterodim]

It is good on short fights, but is this the best damage ingame over a longer time?

In the Shadowlands:

In a raid situation with a good DD team I think it is the best, since the setup benefits so much more than others from add all damage auras, buffs, and instance buffs.

In 1-2 minute self-buffed fights, I think so, but that's mainly due to NTs insane burst damage from certain medium-cooldown perks.

However, I can see pure DD shades with sneak attacks and backstabs potentially beating it, when timed against a single target... not over the course of most full raids though.

Candycane + pistols is great for raids, where there is lots of target switching and quickly dying mobs. Instacast nukes and instacast ranged specials are way better to have here than the IU/doubles/triples of standard NTs and the melee attacks/perk chains of Shades.

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On RK:

Same things apply, but it sounds like engis can OD it, maybe crats too. Needs to be tested. Shades right on our tail, too.

[RedWatr]

It is good on short fights, but is this the best damage ingame over a longer time?

from what I see, it's actually the opposite, seems to get better over time.

[Gatester]

yep, trip wield kuma tonfas is what I was thinking about after reading this too

NT's have natural pistol support though which might make it significantly more feasible.

Tonfa's are a bit much for an NT to use, especially two of them.


Messed around with damage add on the 200 NT a bit but you can't get anywhere near the needed amount of inits for candycane and you don't quite have the damage add support you can get as a 220 either. Plenty of IP and you do have some low req choices for pistols, but LE nukes are rather overpowering for damage comparitively and you gain the benefit of 3x damage add on triple, 2x damage add on doubles so a mix of nano damage and add damage gear works well.

Didn't bother with it at 220 because LE nukes = bypass reflects which makes superior for PVP than candycane, you also don't get annihilated by damage/reflect shield damage or have your damage totally absorbed. PVE though it looks to be great, lots of effort went into this research and it looks to have been quite fruitful. Would need to be PVE only though, the viability in PVP would be heavily limited.


Side note, Candycane vs fixers is hilarious, especially one shotting them with a 200. Sacrifice + candycane is win.

[Dogtrauma]

I guess i was pegged to be the voice of bastards then

CANDYCANE TOTAL: 76698
DM TOTAL:        73478 
PISTOL TOTAL:    46712
SI TOTAL:        16734
PERKS:           10727

Fight length: 27 seconds.

To begin with you have 3 DMs in 27 seconds so i will assume a 30s+ fight

In 30 seconds you can reasonably get off 8 UIs, using your example NT you would have 40 base %nano damage and another 32 from active perks.

I calculated average IU and DM damage by adding min damage twice and max once then dividing by three ( to simulate effects of armor)

IU average: 6558 (double radiation add since the additional hit from using SI gets it too this will be added later tho)
DM average: 14559 +fire damage and add damage ( not put in now since those are not adjusted for % damage as far as i can tell)

IU over 30 seconds: 8*6558*1.72+ 8*(370*2)= 96158
DM over 30 seconds: 14559*3*1.72+3*( 500*1.72+2*370)= 79924

SI damage will increase marginally
Perk damage will go up by a fairly large chunk, CBA reconstructing that, sorry.

I believe that in the new "improved" Pande you will have a few nukes resisted and that DD crats will be grumpy at the lack of NR debuffing, pistol bursts will also drop in damage as you will be hitting with 0-1 bullet a lot of the time, you will lose crit damage as well.

So, my take from this is that your build is quite alright but not as ubah as it seemed at first, on lower AC mobs IU should pull ahead ( apf raids and such).

And finally i have to call you on your choice of toons to compare your DD with, the shade was crit build whut is no longer really good DD for shades compared to straight up add damage, the other toons were built for survival and soloing.

Disclaimer: people like me should not be made to do mathematics, it is entirely possible that i screwed up simple additions, so be warned

[walterodim]

I guess i was pegged to be the voice of bastards then


To begin with you have 3 DMs in 27 seconds so i will assume a 30s+ fight

In 30 seconds you can reasonably get off 8 UIs, using your example NT you would have 40 base %nano damage and another 32 from active perks.

I calculated average IU and DM damage by adding min damage twice and max once then dividing by three ( to simulate effects of armor)

IU average: 6558 (double radiation add since the additional hit from using SI gets it too this will be added later tho)
DM average: 14559 +fire damage and add damage ( not put in now since those are not adjusted for % damage as far as i can tell)

IU over 30 seconds: 8*6558*1.72+ 8*(370*2)= 96158
DM over 30 seconds: 14559*3*1.72+3*( 500*1.72+2*370)= 79924

SI damage will increase marginally
Perk damage will go up by a fairly large chunk, CBA reconstructing that, sorry.

I believe that in the new "improved" Pande you will have a few nukes resisted and that DD crats will be grumpy at the lack of NR debuffing, pistol bursts will also drop in damage as you will be hitting with 0-1 bullet a lot of the time, you will lose crit damage as well.

So, my take from this is that your build is quite alright but not as ubah as it seemed at first, on lower AC mobs IU should pull ahead ( apf raids and such).

And finally i have to call you on your choice of toons to compare your DD with, the shade was crit build whut is no longer really good DD for shades compared to straight up add damage, the other toons were built for survival and soloing.

Disclaimer: people like me should not be made to do mathematics, it is entirely possible that i screwed up simple additions, so be warned

Your smilies seem to indicate you've caught me in some sort of misrepresentation of the facts, so to defend myself:

I'm not really sure what you're implying with your first line. Why are we assuming a 30 second+ fight? Are you saying the fight must've lasted at least 30 seconds because I have 3 DMs? If so:

DMs are on a 10 second cooldown. DMs are insta-cast. I can therefore cast 3 DMs in 20 seconds. 3, 20. If you include the inital casting time of SI, it's at worst 3 DMs in 23.25 seconds, which as you will note, is less than 27 seconds! Wow, so it seems like everything is above board. But wait! In my post I say [ First hit of SI gets cut off, I believe]. I must've clicked on the DD parser late, bad habit of mine that I have been working on fixing, and have. Fights are now more like 28-29 seconds, with the same DPM. Hmm... so even if you had seen 3 DMs in say, 22 seconds, which is legitimately impossible accounting for cast/recharge time of SI, you still couldn't have concluded anything. It still could've been an ideal scenario where my annotation makes it clear that the initial 1.25 seconds of the fight (casting time of SI) were cut out.

If that wasn't the confusion, then I don't understand the connection between having 3 DMs in 27 seconds and assuming a 30+ second fight. If we were to assume anything, it should be that the fight was no _more_ than 33.25 seconds long, to limit ourselves to 3 DMs rather than having the potential for a fourth. Regardless, let's continue.

32 from active perks, but what about Notum Overflow? This is a 1v1 situation, so that perk is just as good as % nano damage efficiency, isn't it? Or am I mistaken? Your scenario isn't clear, nothing is clear.

What's the point of the calculations that follow? Are you trying to estimate the amount of DPM for the standard NT? Don't bother, I did it in-game and stated the DPM in a prior post in this thread. 430-450Kish in the same situation, compared to 480-510Kish for the pistol NT. Both are missing NTHs, as I also said, which will skew towards the standard NTs favor to a degree. Standard NT also needs a chipped deck. However, looking at longer DPM runs, this won't be enough to beat the pistol NT. And standard will be no where near in a team situation with +add damage auras/raid buffs.

As for your points about Pande, I have no idea if it's good or not. As a previous post indicates, I neither know nor claim that nukes will land. I specifically qualify that this would only work if my attacks are landing:

"It's really important to note that unlike lots of professions, this damage seems very consistent across both RK and the Shadowlands, as long as everything is landing."

Neither of us knows if they will, but it's good of you to reiterate that point! To move forward, we should test it in real raids. Your point about DD crats seems irrelevant, however. This is a pure DD build. I don't care about other people or their damage, I don't care about the raid. I care about my own DPM. Ideally we have other NTs to do the NR debuffing.

I don't agree intuitively that on lower AC mobs IU will pull ahead, but I haven't done rigorous enough testing. We've already tested RK level 250 dynas, and I've done further tests on RK mobs. For APFs, you're not giving enough credit to instacasting Candycane and insta ranged specials, but I don't know if AoE trumps everything in there regardless.

And finally I have to call you out on your lack of understanding in your final point, and your continued habit in stating things that have already been noted previously. I wasn't comparing the NT to other pure DPM builds, as is obvious. I was providing a context to better understand what damage ranges are typical for common builds in this specific scenario. Again, I specifically say what the intent of each character is. I say "Pure PVM solo, designed for Anansi L/R Hand", "PVM tanking focused", etc. It's very clear they aren't built for pure DPM. You can't call me out on anything, since I've been very clear what the intent was. It should be obvious to anyone I'm not misrepresenting other professions' DPM potentials, since the builds are so obviously not pure DPM. What you can do is say, "Okay. We should also compare to pure glass cannon builds of other professions, too." Don't make it seem like that idea never occurred to me though, or like I was trying to trick everyone into thinking NTs are so uber at DD by comparing them to a Crat with combined scouts and an Enforcer with a Masterpiece Ancient Bracer, or a Shade with a defense L-Arm.

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To reword your post more succinctly:

"I didn't read this thread very carefully. I did some estimations for a standard NT for those curious. I have some reservations about this build. I have some vague notions that it might not work in Pande, and it might not be ideal in the APFs."

And to reword my reply more succinctly:

"Yeah. I actually did the standard NT, but thanks for the estimations. I agree, we should test this build in Pande, and in the APFs, and compare it with a cyberdeck NT."

[Dogtrauma]

You are ofc absolutely right about the DM issue, that was a bit fail-think on my part, i simply looked at recharge and thought 10s/DM. As for not reading the thread, that is simply not true. I didn't spend all that time thinking, writing and discarding that which did not pan out just to attack/troll you.

There is value in looking at the theoretical, with low sample sizes it is quite easy to get atypical results and my conclusion was simply that there was not a huge gap between the two "schools", i was not calling you an idjit nor do i think that the work you have put into this is wasted. But i am done with this now, i won't waste your time anymore.

[Lazy]

ou this. unfortunately i stripped my crat and sold his erbp so i cna't really run the numbers again but would be curious how a setup like this performs in f. ex. pande. i doubt it'd od engies and crats but it'd be damn close and probably od shades. (last time i ran into a pistol nt ~6 months ago he wasn't that well equipped but close and he was 2nd on dd list so ./shrug who knows, maybe it's possible to od the 2 pet profs that matter even.)

[Esssch]

the 2 pet profs that matter even.

MPs and Traders?

[walterodim]

You are ofc absolutely right about the DM issue, that was a bit fail-think on my part, i simply looked at recharge and thought 10s/DM. As for not reading the thread, that is simply not true. I didn't spend all that time thinking, writing and discarding that which did not pan out just to attack/troll you.

There is value in looking at the theoretical, with low sample sizes it is quite easy to get atypical results and my conclusion was simply that there was not a huge gap between the two "schools", i was not calling you an idjit nor do i think that the work you have put into this is wasted. But i am done with this now, i won't waste your time anymore.

Agreed that there is value, and yeah, especially for standard NTs we can get a pretty good idea by doing those kind of calculations. And it looks like your estimations are pretty close. My bad if I seemed hostile.

[Cratertina]

How does the setup work in say.. Arid or City raid?

So I'm running this setup now Pistols... two kyr'ozsch 295ql type 1 and 184ql type 4, NT is 220.

You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 830 points of radiation damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 917 points of melee damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 1012 points of projectile damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 997 points of energy damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 1079 points of fire damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 917 points of cold damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 917 points of chemical damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 917 points of poison damage.
You hit Dust Brigade Commando with nanobots for 997 points of radiation damage.

DM damage is around 21000ish.

Nothing special really just NT thrown in to a cheap pistol setup, add damage is around 230-420 depending on damage type. I raised fire most, so I get good kiting with VE,

VE damage:
You hit Dust Brigade Exo-Suited Commando with nanobots for 1216 points of fire damage.

This then be my experience:

-Survival is poor, since you need to be almost all the time on full offense, yet with blinds, perk damage, (got a full bar and a half of dd perks) full defense at points I was able to solo arid questline from about half to the end using this setup. Now i'm in Neretva trying to do the same. Damage is about the same as before... Gameplay however is way way more fun.

Sometimes i can afk and let pistols finish the job, other times I kite with Candycane + DM, DM is a great kiting nuke Candycane needs some more initiative. I am at 2976 right now, when procs start I get accross 3300, I wish i'd be able to instacast it in full defense. That'd be nice.

NT has leveling symbs, + feet and thigh heal delta. None of fancy DD symbs yet. Damage overtime is above 200k, That is when I don't run out of mobs or HP. When I have to go defensive Damage is about 130k.

Nothing expensive yet in my setup.. save eRBP, I had it so i might aswell use it. Oh this is all solo damage. I'm sure i'd be able to do far better with an actual tank to support me.

Till next update Nuketina experimental pistol NT out.

[Cratertina]

As an addition...

RK dyna 240ish. 1. Nuketina ( 358.471 / 247.200 / 63 / 2 / 3% / 24.379 )

[walterodim]

Thanks George, interesting experience. I would say survival is really poor when you go all out, but kiting/burst damage is great. It's really nice once you get the 3300 and can kite mobs with pistol burst/fling and Candycane, and the occasional DM if you can get enough distance in to cast SI.

If you were AoEing in APF raids I'm not sure how this would compare, but if you use VE not a cyberdeck-based AoE nuke, with my setup your VE damage will be a good amount higher than a normal NT's. Just because VE has low base damage, so +DD helps more than %nano damage.

Standard NT VE hits for 1285 against high-ac mob, Pistol NT VE hits for 1551.

From killing some Cyborgs Pistol NT is usually doing ~200 more per hit, it seems, but haven't tested it much.

[Cratertina]

So... More updates. I've now soloed many inferno questlines.. finished Anansi, (including hands), Needed doc for hands.

Comming up next is final boss of spirit questline,

You ( 1.427.377 / 167.220 / 240 / 5 / 2% / 23.743 )

And here is some sample from inferno mission where i died. to much of my shame.

I am featuring Ethereal Implant of Berserker Rage.

This feels distinctly like something i remember.... Soldier! 11k hp, 4 second full auto for 7k, burst fling..

You ( 265.144 / 231.060 / 53 / 2 / 3% / 26.678 )

On dummy. So basicly very poor real world damage. Far from promised 480k per minute.

However, as a kiting NT? This one is probably the best I ever had. I'll post some inkiting damage later when I do Scientist from spirits quest.


Inferno mission DD: Balanced team Just candycane, none of other DD. It feels like a crat without pets.. burst fling nuke, some dd perks.

1. Nuketina ( 2.464.371 / 133.080 / 479 / 18 / 3% / 25.356 )
2. Reggio ( 2.284.844 / 123.360 / 580 / 34 / 5% / 13.000 )
3. Fundehli ( 1.762.175 / 95.160 / 474 / 39 / 8% / 15.000 )
4. Scretch ( 1.739.202 / 93.900 / 1303 / 64 / 4% / 9.445 )
5. Eqvestre ( 1.369.769 / 73.920 / 421 / 30 / 7% / 5.911 )
6. Aiketo ( 1.311.360 / 70.800 / 398 / 25 / 6% / 8.532 )

Victor Nonya in team with two 220 shades.

Fluxi ( 623.425 / 153.300 / 132 / 11 / 8% / 12.838 )
You ( 594.915 / 146.280 / 99 / 6 / 6% / 24.223 )
Skiddrow ( 383.598 / 94.320 / 99 / 15 / 15% / 13.000 )

We had to keep DD low, as quest bug was about to ensue. The shade was able to easily tank boss, and do more DD than me. Let's just say the moment I tanked I wished i didn't start tanking.

Can setup really imporve that much to make this a decent DD machine.. atleast in glass cannon style?

[Wakizaka]

This feels distinctly like something i remember.... Soldier! 11k hp, 4 second full auto for 7k, burst fling..

Skill lock modifier is capped at 50%, so even when it affected specials, no.

[Gatester]

Skill lock modifier is capped at 50%, so even when it affected specials, no.

Before my time but I thought it took seconds off directly rather than a % reduction? Would be nice as a direct reduction again if they shifted the decimal over a tenth of a place, cap at 5 seconds.

[Tinypain]

Before my time but I thought it took seconds off directly rather than a % reduction? Would be nice as a direct reduction again if they shifted the decimal over a tenth of a place, cap at 5 seconds.

This is correct...there was a time when it took seconds off directly. I remember trying to stack it to reduce stim and other times on my level 90 fixer...

[Le-Quack]

Resonance Blast http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=201935 nuke isnt better than candycane http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=202262 ??

i would asume RB was allot better for pistol pvm setup

[Pafpuf]

It used to, before dmgadds worked on nanos. Candycane hits 8 times for each damage type meaning greater bonuses from items that buff multiple damage types.

[Cratertina]

I've now installed alphas on my live NT... also took liberty to remove that +90 left arm symbiant and replaced it with AAD and HD... survivability is way up damage is better due to ability to actually fight not just try to survive.

Nanoinitiatives are now very comftable, I can always instacast candy cane. Damage is between 200k-300k depending on length of battle.

AI general for example was 240k damage per minute. (had doc in team)



But check this out?
You hit General - Cha'Khaz with nanobots for 742580 points of radiation damage.

Now i'll do 12man, will see that.

Player (Damage/Damage per Minute/Hits/Crits/Crit%/highest hit)
Nuketina ( 1.038.141 / 235.020 / 146 / 8 / 5% / 24.664 )
Mainframe ( 945.825 / 214.140 / 163 / 17 / 10% / 13.000 )
Littlekeep ( 736.112 / 166.620 / 176 / 13 / 7% / 5.984 )
Iamatrox ( 670.551 / 151.800 / 175 / 4 / 2% / 5.619 )
Thirteenn ( 622.177 / 140.820 / 193 / 10 / 5% / 15.000 )
Arlancor ( 505.631 / 114.480 / 165 / 6 / 3% / 15.000 )
Mypetsnyder ( 494.885 / 112.020 / 234 / 18 / 7% / 4.153 )
Enfyalt2 ( 477.849 / 108.180 / 155 / 25 / 16% / 5.684 )
Xppro ( 345.419 / 78.180 / 229 / 12 / 5% / 5.093 )
Blondidoc ( 267.102 / 60.420 / 143 / 24 / 16% / 4.785 )
Xuum ( 176.191 / 39.840 / 127 / 2 / 1% / 2.668 )
Right Hand of Madness ( 133.336 / 30.180 / 20 / 0 / 0% / 10.983 )
Left Hand of Insanity ( 10.250 / 2.280 / 2 / 0 / 0% / 5.457 )

Right until Xan killed me ... Got WU however, so now I can contemplate lust of xan!

[Djiax]

I so wanna roll a 2nd 220 NT just to try out that build