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Thread: Monthly Development Update - 2nd June 2014

  1. #221
    Again, my point wasn't that occasional rants are bad or useless. It was that ranting when you don't have enough information yet to know what the changes actually do when taken collectively is useless. Passion is great. I love this game and have for a decade. I just think starting a flame war before you know the facts is not only unnecessary, it makes DEVs less likely to actually even read the posted complaints in the long run. Human nature is what it is even for DEVs.
    People seem to be afraid of change because it IS change a lot with 18.7 based on assumptions on how game mechanics and balances of power work now that will be different post 18.7. And we have no idea HOW different yet.
    Wait till it hits test or try for a Beta spot, experience the changes as a WHOLE, then set that passion free on those changes you dislike. Funcom may not listen. Game companies very often don't. But at least then we will actually know what changes suck and why and the posts will be constructive. But AO absolutely MUST change or it will die. No one will like ALL the changes. No one ever does because what was the FOTM yesterday may not be post patch. Especially if FC makes an effort to bring lesser used classes in line power wise with the others. If Joe's ultratwink is suddenly defeated 50% of the time in PvP by classes he could gank at will, Joe is not likely to compliment DEVs on efforts at balance. :-p

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    Absolutely! And I wasn't suggesting that giving a heated opinion (while something I myself wouldn't do as a believer that if I am stressing over my De-stress activity I am doing it wrong) is not appropriate occasionally. I was simply pointing out that getting worked up over a proposed change when you don't know how it will fit in with other changes and don't even have full details of how the change will actually be implemented is kinda pointless.
    For instance, the change regarding trader drains not giving more skills/ar/whatever than they drain for anymore is a good example. Taken in context of how drains work on live atm and how other skills interact with them and how mobs work it seems like a big nerf. And it may end up being so. However, what if the actual change were that you simply gained what current drains take from the mob? Or if he was only referring to the skills themselves and not the other parts of the drain? What if they plan to tone down mob AR a bit as part of the changes to make it new player friendly? How will deflect and other changes factor in to a trader's defensive skill set? How will all this interact with changes in other classes tool-set? How will deflect and other changes affect mob behavior and difficulty?
    Without all that information, which we wont have till the changes actually hit test and we can see them in action, how can we even determine if traders have BEEN nerfed rather than simply altered? And with FC track record how do we even know any of this will ever SEE test? Thus my point of how being upset at any announcements at this point seems silly?
    Very well said. I concur with all you've just said. Also, for reference, this goes way beyond trader drains and I feel more people would be wise to pay a little more attention to the meaning behind this post entirely.
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  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    Again, my point wasn't that occasional rants are bad or useless. It was that ranting when you don't have enough information yet to know what the changes actually do when taken collectively is useless. Passion is great. I love this game and have for a decade. I just think starting a flame war before you know the facts is not only unnecessary, it makes DEVs less likely to actually even read the posted complaints in the long run. Human nature is what it is even for DEVs.
    People seem to be afraid of change because it IS change a lot with 18.7 based on assumptions on how game mechanics and balances of power work now that will be different post 18.7. And we have no idea HOW different yet.
    Wait till it hits test or try for a Beta spot, experience the changes as a WHOLE, then set that passion free on those changes you dislike. Funcom may not listen. Game companies very often don't. But at least then we will actually know what changes suck and why and the posts will be constructive. But AO absolutely MUST change or it will die. No one will like ALL the changes. No one ever does because what was the FOTM yesterday may not be post patch. Especially if FC makes an effort to bring lesser used classes in line power wise with the others. If Joe's ultratwink is suddenly defeated 50% of the time in PvP by classes he could gank at will, Joe is not likely to compliment DEVs on efforts at balance. :-p
    I get what you're trying to say, but what is the point of the devs publishing information about specific changes if we don't have the whole picture?

    I mean, why bother?

    They say "We're buffing Enfos and Shades but Nerfing Traders", which in the current system is ludicrous, yet you say "Look at the bigger picture!". We havn't even been given the canvas yet, how can we look at the bigger picture?

    So, as it stands, these changes are being based on the current system and in the current system, they are 100% retarded.
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  4. #224
    dethshade is sorta right, that without understanding the big picture and testing it, there is really no way to have a full understanding regarding how the changes impact anything.

    That being said, none of us are new to how AO works. People need to be really concerned when they're told that these types of changes (18.7) are planned to hit live before Halloween-- about 4 months from now.

    The question I'm asking myself-- If this update is only 4 months away, why aren't they able to give us the big picture of what's going on? Even if everything hasn't been 100% tested they should have a complete idea of the big picture and should be able to post something meaningful to the players to explain what to expect with 18.7. If they can't, then option A is that 18.7 is much more than 4 months away. Option B is that it is 4 months away but they'lll push it to Live half done. And of course, there's good ole reliable option C. It'll take more than 4 months to push to live and it'll still be messed up.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Jun 17th, 2014 at 16:34:59.
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  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    dethshade is sorta right, that without understanding the big picture and testing it, there is really no way to have a full understanding regarding how the changes impact anything.

    That being said, none of us are new to how AO works. People need to be really concerned when they're told that these types of changes (18.7) are planned to hit live before Halloween-- about 4 months from now.

    The question I'm asking myself-- If this update is only 4 months away, why aren't they able to give us the big picture of what's going on? Even if everything hasn't been 100% tested they should have a complete idea of the big picture and should be able to post something meaningful to the players to explain what to expect with 18.7. If they can't, then option A is that 18.7 is much more than 4 months away. Option B is that it is 4 months away but they'lll push it to Live half done. And of course, there's good ole reliable option C. It'll take more than 4 months to push to live and it'll still be messed up.
    I agree but would make the point that the GD is still new to the game, and certainly doesn't understand it.
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  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    dethshade is sorta right, that without understanding the big picture and testing it, there is really no way to have a full understanding regarding how the changes impact anything.
    That's right however -if- funcom do have a big picture why don't they lay it down for the playerbase to see instead of feeding us tiny vague bits of (mis)information every month that leave dozens of unanswered questions. The way they present changes makes no sense since all they do is piss more and more people off. Anyone following those threads can see that.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Caloss2 View Post
    I agree but would make the point that the GD is still new to the game, and certainly doesn't understand it.
    Define "new to the game". Genele's the GD and she's been here for awhile. Looks like her join date is in 2008 so that's 6 years. I also didn't get the impression from her posts (non monthly updates, before becoming GD) that she's new or inexperienced when it comes to playing the game.

    Before she became GD, she seemed to look into issues and either fix them or let you know if it wasn't part of the plan (timewise). I guess what I'm saying is that if there is a plan, I'm most certainly sure she's the one that would know the most about it. I don't think communication is the strong suit of any of the staff.. no offense to them. There is a reason why technical folks didn't go into sales and marketing. That's sorta why I was hoping the new community manager would be able to fill in some of the gaps but looks like that's not happening either.

    Anyway, despite my normal annoyance with communication, its my personal opinion that we won't get to see what Genele can really do until she's done cleaning up after the last 2 GD's.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Jun 17th, 2014 at 18:29:31.
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  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Pafpuf View Post
    That's right however -if- funcom do have a big picture why don't they lay it down for the playerbase to see instead of feeding us tiny vague bits of (mis)information every month that leave dozens of unanswered questions. The way they present changes makes no sense since all they do is piss more and more people off. Anyone following those threads can see that.
    I'm convinced that there is no "master plan" beyond allowing the game to continue to limp along with nothing but random, "busy work" changes until the new engine is released so they can get in one last cash grab.

    I would love to be wrong, because I still enjoy the game, but man, just look at how things are after twelve years of FC "planning" and "development" (and with fully funded development teams and competent GD's for much of that time). It's difficult to be optimistic given their past track record, especially when you consider that they've stripped both the development and support teams for AO down to bare bones and have done not the first thing to address many of the longstanding issues that have caused the population crisis in the first place.

    These are simply not the actions of a company that is attempting to revitalize an old, failing title, they're the actions of a company desperate to keep the cash cow producing for a little longer.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahela View Post
    I'm convinced that there is no "master plan" beyond allowing the game to continue to limp along with nothing but random, "busy work" changes until the new engine is released so they can get in one last cash grab.

    I would love to be wrong, because I still enjoy the game, but man, just look at how things are after twelve years of FC "planning" and "development" (and with fully funded development teams and competent GD's for much of that time). It's difficult to be optimistic given their past track record, especially when you consider that they've stripped both the development and support teams for AO down to bare bones and have done not the first thing to address many of the longstanding issues that have caused the population crisis in the first place.

    These are simply not the actions of a company that is attempting to revitalize an old, failing title, they're the actions of a company desperate to keep the cash cow producing for a little longer.
    I have zero faith that FC will deliver any changes to AO that revitalize the game. I am no longer willing to monetarily support this kind of development. It's only two accounts though, just a drop in the bucket.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Define "new to the game". Genele's the GD and she's been here for awhile. Looks like her join date is in 2008 so that's 6 years. I also didn't get the impression from her posts (non monthly updates, before becoming GD) that she's new or inexperienced when it comes to playing the game.
    New to the game in how much time the person in question has spent actually playing it, not when they joined a forum/started working for FC. Read back through some of their "hi I'm the new GD posts" and you see exactly what I mean.
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  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Caloss2 View Post
    New to the game in how much time the person in question has spent actually playing it, not when they joined a forum/started working for FC. Read back through some of their "hi I'm the new GD posts" and you see exactly what I mean.
    You mean the thread when she started or something else? Care to link it?

    Edit: I can't find any welcome or getting started letter from Genele when she took over as the GD. In fact, I don't remember there being an announcement at all.. I probably missed it.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Jun 17th, 2014 at 19:58:12.
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  12. #232
    I dont think there was any real announcement but it was said randomly and I believe a player announced it on the forums.

  13. #233
    I would propose the "Big Picture" is a conglomeration of the rebalance docs. If you look at the changes that come in piece meal they are very similar and in some cases exactly whats in the rebalance docs. Some will make the cut, others will just be tested. All those changes are probably not going to happen but some most certainly will. We just don't know which is which until we get monthly annoucements.
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  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    Again, my point wasn't that occasional rants are bad or useless. It was that ranting when you don't have enough information yet to know what the changes actually do when taken collectively is useless. Passion is great. I love this game and have for a decade. I just think starting a flame war before you know the facts is not only unnecessary, it makes DEVs less likely to actually even read the posted complaints in the long run. Human nature is what it is even for DEVs.
    You are right, I do not have enough information.
    Tell me, where can I get more information? Tell me, what is the big picture, the master plan?

    Seven years ago, we were promised a new engine, class rebalance and other things.
    That was the master plan back then - what is it now? Do you know?

    All these monthly updates are just random dots on a map.
    They do not tackle AO's real issues, they do not address the concerns of the players.
    To us, the paying customers, there is no apparent method to the madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    People seem to be afraid of change because it IS change a lot with 18.7 based on assumptions on how game mechanics and balances of power work now that will be different post 18.7. And we have no idea HOW different yet.
    The people who post critical opinions are not afraid of change!
    Quite the contrary, they know that AO needs changes very badly.
    They are also the ones suggesting the more radical ways of dealing with the problems.

    What is scheduled to be implemented in 18.7 will upset many of the few players we have left.
    But more importantly, 18.7 doesn't bring the changes that are necessary for the game to survive in the long run.

    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    Wait till it hits test or try for a Beta spot, experience the changes as a WHOLE, then set that passion free on those changes you dislike.
    No more waiting!
    We have been bamboozled for many years!
    The time of leeching money from loyal supporters has passed, FC has to deliver RIGHT NOW!
    Quote Originally Posted by dethshade2 View Post
    Funcom may not listen. Game companies very often don't. But at least then we will actually know what changes suck and why and the posts will be constructive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Macrosun View Post
    Quitting had absolutely nothing at all to do with anyone getting any attention. We don't even have access to any data about quitting or any subscriber numbers at all, so there's no way we could know about anything happening unless someone higher up told us (and they didn't).
    funcom nv (FUNCOM:Oslo)
    Operating Profit/Net Income (annual)
    2007: -6.73M
    2008: -26.71M
    2009: -10.8M
    2010: -0.6M
    2011: -16.3M
    2012: -62.2M
    2013: -4.5M
    Q1 2014: -0.624M

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  15. #235
    Are those numbers negatives, or is that just a dash? Just making sure I'm reading you correctly. They've decreased losses since 2012 consistently, but they went up from 2011 to 2012, so... how do we read these trends, keeping in mind that AO isn't the only thing going?

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by vitriolic-v View Post
    Are those numbers negatives, or is that just a dash? Just making sure I'm reading you correctly. They've decreased losses since 2012 consistently, but they went up from 2011 to 2012, so... how do we read these trends, keeping in mind that AO isn't the only thing going?
    Yes, all numbers are negative since 2007.
    In fact, they are negative since 2004, but it is a little harder to find historical data.
    It's FunCom's net profit (net loss), after all operating expenses - what you would call the bottom line.

    The numbers are from public annual reports* that you can get from any stock market website.
    (*quarterly report for Q1 2014 was actually from FunCom's own investor website)
    I used several different ones, including Morningstar.com and Etrade.

    To answer your question, the simplest way to interpret all this:
    FunCom (not necessarily AO) is losing money since at least 2007.
    Last edited by Grandpa; Jun 18th, 2014 at 09:06:26.
    I have nothing to hide, but I value my privacy!
    I'm not on facebook, twitter or any other social media.
    I will never reveal my in-game characters or organizations on a public forum.
    If that upsets all the virtual exhibitionists, so be it!

  17. #237
    Well duh. :P Do we have any further data to show what the gains and losses are for every individual game they're currently running, though?

  18. #238
    I saw it mentioned somewhere that AO itself is profitable. I think one could do some back of the envelope calcs and come up with an atomic hand grenade to lob in here. (ie, near the target...an atomic 'nade doesn't have to be so near )

    Assume $500k salaries-- just for AO staff not for customer serv. etc. (Yes, cust serv and QA sort of count but they handle all of FC's games.) $500k for hardware/software, $1m for physical plant (rent, utils, etc.).

    Number of paying subs...my guess is 2k.

    Number of active froob only accts who buy cash shop items...my guess is 1k

    Cash shop purchases, my guess is $25 per brand new player, maybe $50. I know I've spent about $75 over the years. You can go into your acct and see exactly how much.

    Kick it around and see who runs up the flagpole. (metaphors, cliches, proverbs mixed daily)

    PSA: Good Old Games gog.com is having their summer sale. They're rotating 10 games in/out every few min in an annoying but working attempt to keep you going back. Bought "Consortium" for $5, insta buy for me--why? Jeremy Soule did the soundtrack. Game itself is a riot so far-- graphics that are up to AO standards! Much better sound effects. and the devs know their sf. The med bay dialog alone was worth the price of admisssion!

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Grandpa View Post

    funcom nv (FUNCOM:Oslo)
    Operating Profit/Net Income (annual)
    2007: -6.73M
    2008: -26.71M
    2009: -10.8M
    2010: -0.6M
    2011: -16.3M
    2012: -62.2M
    2013: -4.5M
    Q1 2014: -0.624M

    A company that doesn't listen to its customers will not survive.
    Think those numbers are GAAP/IFRS or-whatever-it's-called-in-Norway numbers. That is, they include one-time items / impairment charges. And AoC + TSW have had huge writedowns over the years if I remember right. Ofc, over the long term these should balance out. Q1/14 was actually cashflow positive, though only thanks to issuing new shares... think FC have managed to invent the perpetual motion machine!

    Funny thing is that they report all 3 MMO games to be cashflow positive, but the cashflow for the entire company is in the reds (excluding the money from new shares). Think that's due to expenses related to the new Lego game. I can't help thinking the history will repeat itself here... first huge costs getting the game developed/marketed, launch it with ok numbers but lose people in a few months. Then huge writedowns/cost cuts, get the game cashflow positive, and start developing new game again. Has happened with AoC and TSW so far, interesting to see how long they can find people financing this.

  20. #240
    I just noticed testlive patch, looking forward to see it live asap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

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