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Thread: Monthly Development Update – 2nd July, 2014

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    The question is, has been, and always will be WHY NOW after years and years of this bug being around. What made it an emergency situation in June of 2014. Why not last year, or 8 years ago?
    1. DM wasn't even ingame 8 years ago

    2. people learned to replicate a gamebreaking bug that resulted in a huge uproar within the community

    Or should I spell it out for you mr. Big Picture ?

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Maybe this answer will mean more to you than it did to me.
    It just means "no" to me.
    :E

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahndracorvid View Post
    It just means "no" to me.
    The answer didn't read 'No' to me, that's why I worded my response to you as I did. He left it open ended by adding the 'not in its original format' part at the end of his answer. In AO/Funcom speak, however, you're probably right in that it just meant No.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Jul 4th, 2014 at 23:44:54.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Degashi View Post
    Thats easy to answer, its because in June 2014 (actually a month or two earlier) the player base figured out how to reliably reproduce the bug on demand with nearly 100% success.
    Partially true

    Quote Originally Posted by Degashi View Post
    A select few people have probably known how to "trigger" the bug for a while but kept quiet about it but when it got out and became public knowledge and more people started using it it became a problem so it was "fixed" ( i use that term very loosely considering how they fixed it).
    Very much closer to the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    I don't believe DM is 8 years old either. Looks like it hit the database with the 17.x series but looking at auno's comments makes me think that it wasn't actually released until the very end of 2008 or beginning of 2009. That would make it about 5 years old.. not that I even think it matters. Kinda funny too.. reading the comments someone mentions the bug back in 2009.

    Psikie- Exactly what is your point with the questions about why DM was fixed and not the 1hb/1he exploit?
    5yrs- 8yrs i lose track of time with AO I just know AI came out 8yrs ago my NT has been able to use the bug for maybe the last 2.5 years and i've known about the bug longer than that. Very much though it is a question of accountability, of anyone you should understand that point. This bug has been reported and petitioned for years. I only used 1he/1hb as a well known longer running example, i could have used many other countless bugs, some of which i'd rather not post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    "We are aware of the 1hb/1he exploit that has existed for the better part of a decade. The reason why we haven't fixed it is because to do so would require a complete overhaul of the perk system.
    This is what I do not agree with. In seperate forums we have been told various things as far as how hard it is to do work on the great rebalance for nanos, as example new MP notum scourge pet. HOWEVER it seems with the proper motivation a "new" nano can be whipped up in a matter of weeks.

    For perks, it should be a simple matter to add "if 1hb perk running = no 1he perk" or the following perk in the line. Or even still not allow both perklines to be perked at same time. Again I have a 220/30 enfo so this would affect my toon also, but I don't buy the reasons given that more rebalance changes can't be made in a short time frame.

    So my question is not to the players but to get some accountability from the game devs about why rebalance changes have been so slow. In a previous DELETED post Genele stated that DM dmg was a "bug" not exploit. soon after is when the flood gates opened and it became common knowledge.

    Was this a mistake on the director to call it a bug and not exploit? I want accountability to this point why an entire profession is nerfed to the dark ages of 07-08. Why I won't get to see the best nuke graphic in game anymore.

    Everyone knows how to duplicate the 1he/1hb "bug" for a long time. I want some accountability to why the NT prof was effectively broken back to 2007 because of a video? Or the director realizing they made a mistake and tried to do a quick fix without admission?

    You can not claim ignorance to something that has been reported and petitioned for years, along with 1hb/1he bug and various other bugs. Understand this bug has been used for years, I want to know what was the straw that broke the camels back? Was it the amount of people using the bug? If so there are a lot more 215+ enfos in one faction alone using the bug than all the NT's of all both factions that knew how to use the DM bug.

    Several posts have already been deleted of mine and at least 3 other players that pointed out various other longer running bugs. So I'm not trying to to say something to get this post deleted also.

    This is a rhetoric question, why can't we get an honest answer like, "The Dm bug should have been fixed a long time ago, it should/could have been labelled an exploit to prevent proliferation. But it was mistakenly labelled a bug instead and given lower priority."
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  5. #65
    As far as I know Genele never posted in a thread stating that the DM problem was a bug, not an exploit. I posted a screenshot of a PM I sent to her back at the end of April where that was her reply.

    I waited two months to post her response bc I felt that doing so, when she stated a fix wasn't coming until 18.7, would cause more harm than good. I changed my mind when I believe Pafpuf posted the video because I hoped players would be outraged at how the ao crew handled clear exploits that were negatively impacting the playerbase in a couple different ways.

    I do believe the end result was a rushed fix for DM because once players saw that the GM stated it wasn't an exploit they went all out on using it. Kinda the same result as when it was announced that multiboxing was ok.

    The thing is, no one from the ao team or funcom in general is ever going to give you a reasonable answer to your questions and concerns because at this point it's not possible for a reasonable explanation to exist. I mean really.. what could Genele really say that would make any sense on why the 1hb/1he exploit has been around except that they have no way of fixing it?

    You've seen what's coming in 18.7. Does it seem like their coders have the ability to fix things as you think they should be?
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post

    ...snip...

    You've seen what's coming in 18.7. Does it seem like their coders have the ability to fix things as you think they should be?
    I offer an emphatic "NO" in response to your query. I think that is allowed.

  7. #67
    i for one appreciate that this is the first monthly update since genele took over that explicitly deals with community concerns. thumbs up! (even though on this matter, personally i couldn't care less, hardly ever play my nt)


    as for what the dm issue is called. who cares. bug. exploit. its an issue. and an issue thankfully also perceived by funcom. but for what its worth: to be exact it was a bug and an exploit since these terms are not exclusive. 'exploit' merely indicates the misuse of the bug. per definition: use of a bug to gain an advantage not intended by the developers is an exploit. i think no one will doubt that this is exactly what happened. so it was an exploit. end of story.
    Last edited by Xootch; Jul 5th, 2014 at 06:33:52.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    As far as I know Genele never posted in a thread stating that the DM problem was a bug, not an exploit. I posted a screenshot of a PM I sent to her back at the end of April where that was her reply.

    You've seen what's coming in 18.7. Does it seem like their coders have the ability to fix things as you think they should be?
    Unfortunately this is not the case, as unbelievable as it might be those posts were deleted or removed from the forums.

    Yes the DM "bug" was labelled as a bug and not as an exploit which i can see your reasoning that it probably was and should have been labelled as an exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    as for what the dm issue is called. who cares. bug. exploit. its an issue. and an issue thankfully also perceived by funcom. but for what its worth: to be exact it was a bug and an exploit since these terms are not exclusive. 'exploit' merely indicates the misuse of the bug. per definition: use of a bug to gain an advantage not intended by the developers is an exploit. i think no one will doubt that this is exactly what happened. so it was an exploit. end of story.
    I agree with this, along the same lines there are many "bugs" that fall into this category. 1bh/1he not singularly to be pointed out but the recent fix to gauntlet- ie logging out on the final floor is another "bug" that was recently fixed.

    My contention is that what exactly is the "boiling point" for a bug to get immediate attention for a fix? I don't like or accept arbitrary responses to perceived problems.

    I have been a loyal sponsor of FC and taken the game "as is" for many years. However I will not accept getting pee'd on and someone saying it's raining outside, which is what the DM fix feels like to me. If i need to list off other "fixes" in the same category I can but it's been more than 3 strikes by my count. I just want some accountability for this blatant thumb in the hind parts.

    I do not dispute the fact that NT's were abusing this "bug". I do not dispute that it needed an immediate fix. What I have a problem with is the fact that it has been a problem for YEARS and the 1/2 arse explanation for the fix feels like a total snow job.

    Don't act like the player base is mostly 14 year old kids that will just roll with it (even though on the forums most act like it). Don't insult our Intelligence. Anyone playing AO since inception (12+yrs) is going to be 25 somethings and upwards of 40-50ish.

    So if FC says, "We realized a major bug and fixed it." What do they consider major bugs worth immediate attention? Are all other daily use bugs minor and not worth the hassle of fixing? Are they now considered working as intended? Where does the buck stop? Where is the accountability? Who can we look at and say, they got it right this time? How can we have confidence in the future of this product if a heavy handed hammer is brought down anytime there is an issue worth immediate attention? What determines immediate attention status? These are the questions I have.

    Again understand I personally don't have a problem with the 1he/1hb bug, it gives a lot of easy kills to enfos in pvp and extra DD in pvm (I have a 220/30 enfo that has been 1hb/1he for pvp). It just happens to be the most easily recognizable "bug" I could name that any forum reader would recognize to show the utter lack of consistency to this bug-fix process.

    EDIT- Hopefully my motivations will not get this post deleted~

    Granted I do not dislike the changes being made by Genele and I do understand they may be towards a bigger picture we may not understand or agree with, but I do not think at this point of AO's lifeline that the loyal customers need to be blindfolded into acceptance. Just be honest and whether we like it or not at least have the truth on your side for accountability purposes.
    Last edited by Psikie; Jul 5th, 2014 at 09:02:01.
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  9. #69
    They certainly don't consider "enfs having a big alpha" a major bug, nor should anyone else. It's not a bug, it's a simple balance issue caused by the xan weapons and enforcers being able to use 1hb/1he without any drawback anymore such as damage being split into 3 types.

  10. #70
    while i agree with paf here, i can see why piskie is upset about the selective perception of bugs and their misuse by funcom. but lets look on the bright side. it was a problem, it was acknowledged by fc and it was fixed. and all of that in what by fc standards is record time. could there be a better fix? yes, but apparently they're working on it. are there other bugs? yes, but i do think for now this was a more pressing issue than others.

    so all in all, let's cut them some slack and positively reinforce this kind of behavior. anyone got a sausage?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    while i agree with paf here, i can see why piskie is upset about the selective perception of bugs and their misuse by funcom. but lets look on the bright side. it was a problem, it was acknowledged by fc and it was fixed. and all of that in what by fc standards is record time. could there be a better fix? yes, but apparently they're working on it. are there other bugs? yes, but i do think for now this was a more pressing issue than others.

    so all in all, let's cut them some slack and positively reinforce this kind of behavior. anyone got a sausage?
    I think the days of cutting funcom or the AO dev crew slack passed some years ago. Not that I promote bashing them in any way, but when players are bringing up legitimate concerns we shouldn't just say 'well look.. this 1 month out of 12 we got an update that made some sense.. let's forget all of the things that are still gone wrong'. Maybe you can.. but I doubt most will so easily forget.

    Psikie does have a legit concern but the thing is.. I don't expect anyone from the AO dev crew to come here and explain themselves. My mind is boggled by the concept that someone took time out of their day to change the sk gain on SL garden/sanct missions. My mind is boggled by the concept that someone took time out of their day to change the sk/token gain on the John Smith dailies or removed the 3x daily BS. There is a long list of such things. I understand they were fixes of exploits but the timing seems really ill planned in the larger scheme of what's broken in the game. Psikie wants to know why they are prioritizing some fixes over others and it is a legit point... I just don't think he'll get an answer that makes any sense to the average person. What answer could there be?
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    What answer could there be?
    My guess would be that those things were done because they were fairly easy to do (e.g. didn't involve changing any code, just scripts and database entries).

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahela View Post
    My guess would be that those things were done because they were fairly easy to do (e.g. didn't involve changing any code, just scripts and database entries).
    They actually said so at some post. That they can't fix the 1hb/1he perk bug cause they don't know their own code a.k.a. => it's old code .. Can't touch this (MC Hammer). Really sad to see that as an official answer but that's it ...

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    I think the days of cutting funcom or the AO dev crew slack passed some years ago. Not that I promote bashing them in any way, but when players are bringing up legitimate concerns we shouldn't just say 'well look.. this 1 month out of 12 we got an update that made some sense.. let's forget all of the things that are still gone wrong'. Maybe you can.. but I doubt most will so easily forget.

    Psikie does have a legit concern but the thing is.. I don't expect anyone from the AO dev crew to come here and explain themselves. My mind is boggled by the concept that someone took time out of their day to change the sk gain on SL garden/sanct missions. My mind is boggled by the concept that someone took time out of their day to change the sk/token gain on the John Smith dailies or removed the 3x daily BS. There is a long list of such things. I understand they were fixes of exploits but the timing seems really ill planned in the larger scheme of what's broken in the game. Psikie wants to know why they are prioritizing some fixes over others and it is a legit point... I just don't think he'll get an answer that makes any sense to the average person. What answer could there be?
    that is true. but i really see this update as a step into the right direction. don't you? i don't think it's in our interest to respond with further demoralization. all of you are right. we are the customers and morally we have the right to get good service. but that's not how it works. its we have this, and we need to deal with it or quit. so either we continue to rage and cry, or we just say: yes, this was a good first step. now take the next. it's a matter of philosophy i guess, which approach you feel is likelier to succeed. also, i don't blame anyone who just cannot take it anymore after all these years. i really don't. but you could at least try to lower your rage level if a step in the right direction was taken. (meaning not you personally, more you in a general sense).

    and as i said, i understand psikie. but seriously, which fix was more urgent that this one?

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    that is true. but i really see this update as a step into the right direction. don't you? i don't think it's in our interest to respond with further demoralization. all of you are right. we are the customers and morally we have the right to get good service. but that's not how it works. its we have this, and we need to deal with it or quit. so either we continue to rage and cry, or we just say: yes, this was a good first step. now take the next. it's a matter of philosophy i guess, which approach you feel is likelier to succeed. also, i don't blame anyone who just cannot take it anymore after all these years. i really don't. but you could at least try to lower your rage level if a step in the right direction was taken. (meaning not you personally, more you in a general sense).

    and as i said, i understand psikie. but seriously, which fix was more urgent that this one?
    I'm not sure about the whole 'step in the right direction'. The updated didn't include much of any information. All it stated was that a fix is coming soon (no definite date.. just when the next patch is rolled out) to a nano that should never have been introduced on Live in its current form and some patch notes for the beta server.

    I don't think that's exactly anything to give anyone a pat on the back about. As I mentioned in a previous post, it was the first post in a long time that didn't leave me annoyed and confused but at the same time.. if you don't have a lot of content, that's pretty easy to pull off.

    It would take months of informative posts, and a sensible 18.7 rollout to help me gain any faith in the AO dev crew again. I suppose we can have a more intelligent conversation about all of this once 18.7 hits Test Live since many people are under NDA and can't express their thoughts (positive or negative) about what it includes thus far.
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  16. #76

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by verganas View Post
    They actually said so at some post. That they can't fix the 1hb/1he perk bug cause they don't know their own code a.k.a. => it's old code .. Can't touch this (MC Hammer). Really sad to see that as an official answer but that's it ...
    i find that hard to believe. all they'd have to do is put a scaling -1he skill on the 1bh perks and the other way around. but shhh, my enf is almost ready to be reperked for pvp.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    i find that hard to believe. all they'd have to do is put a scaling -1he skill on the 1bh perks and the other way around. but shhh, my enf is almost ready to be reperked for pvp.
    I like your idea of 1HB having negative 1HE skill and vice versa. I would suggest a slight variation though that would solve the 1HB/1HE combo all together. Make it so that 1HB perk 1 add -4000 1HE and then also have 1HE perk 1 add -4000 1HB. Basically make it impossible for the two to co-exist and be usable. Since these modifiers are DB entries I would think it is something FC could fix in an hour or two and get out to be tested in the next scheduled build.
    Lheann
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Lheann View Post
    I like your idea of 1HB having negative 1HE skill and vice versa. I would suggest a slight variation though that would solve the 1HB/1HE combo all together. Make it so that 1HB perk 1 add -4000 1HE and then also have 1HE perk 1 add -4000 1HB. Basically make it impossible for the two to co-exist and be usable. Since these modifiers are DB entries I would think it is something FC could fix in an hour or two and get out to be tested in the next scheduled build.
    Do you think enfs are more overpowered than fixers and advies as it stands now?

    If not, wouldn't the correct place to start nerfing be at those classes?

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Pafpuf View Post
    1. DM wasn't even ingame 8 years ago

    2. people learned to replicate a gamebreaking bug that resulted in a huge uproar within the community

    Or should I spell it out for you mr. Big Picture ?
    I'll spell it out for you.

    D E S E R T _ N O M A D _ R I D E R .

    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    i find that hard to believe. all they'd have to do is put a scaling -1he skill on the 1bh perks and the other way around. but shhh, my enf is almost ready to be reperked for pvp.
    With the way negative numbers work in AO, thats really a good idea.
    Hire this person as dev.
    Last edited by Metafizis; Jul 6th, 2014 at 11:27:35.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vgman01 View Post
    With a kite team you generaly pay for your lvls. Imo this makes it ok..
    Quote Originally Posted by Vgman01 View Post
    Pocket teaming is fine to because (most of the time) players actualy step up and kill the hecklers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hvyshadows View Post
    OST is actually a good thing. In many Ely heck teams where there is a pocket the rest of the team sits around and chats every once in awhile.

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