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Thread: Monthly Development Update - August 2014

  1. #181
    If we take a look outside in the real world, theres smallest insects, animals, human, whales etc are all struggling and competing each other everyday for their own existence.
    AO still exists today and can be compared as a fly, but this doesnt means that a small fly have to fight directly with a elephant for their own survival. It just finding a place in the competition to secure its own existence.

    However, lowering monthly subscription fees combined with new engine, NPE will extend lifespand of AO for a 3-4 years. While i believe F2P for AO will not only generate more activities, but also provides more opportunities as well.
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    most people that play F2P's do so with the expectation of not spending any money ever, no matter what.
    Economics 101

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrangeline View Post
    But if everyone that doesn't use the item-shop got to play AO for free, would they spend the same amount of money they currently spend on subscriptions in the item-shop? In its current incarnation no, I really don't think so. If Funcom were to make the game F2P and hope that the item-shop in its current incarnation would support the game, then I believe it would fail.

    Anyway, that's enough rambling from me. I guess all I'm saying, long story short, is that I have big doubts about an old and small game making it in the F2P market, almost no matter what strategy they go for.
    Common sense 101, absolutely spot on.
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  3. #183
    All good points made, and I agree with most of what has been said especially from Wrangeline. At this moment I can honestly not complain about AO's ftp model as the whole original game is ftp that's 200 levels worth of game. And in my view it is the best part of the game . On saying that I still stand by AO's subs being to expensive. If someone sees this and any other MMO side by side and is debating which one to start, they will look at the subs 15 pounds for AO or 9 pounds for any other game on the market. Which one do you think there going to go for.

    In todays market which has so many MMOs to choose from AO is shooting itself in the foot right from the get go. Now Funcom is stuck between a rock and a hard place do they half subs to attract new players with the launch of steam and the new starting area and in doing so half there income, or do they stick with the subs as they are, destroying any chance of pulling in a significant amount of new players.

  4. #184
    Dear Psikie,

    Please allow me to introduce you to the art of business.

    Comming from a strong business background, and working as a salesman. I would like to inform you that once we earned 10 we always give back 1 to our customers, and not only taking their moneys even though we can do that.
    By giving back something, we can gain back much more from the customers, because they will be happy spending their money and doing business with us than our competitors.
    This builds a strong loyalty, long lasting and a healthy customer relationship, which secures our business for the future.

    We call this sales techniques "sacrifice a clementine, in order to gain a orange"

    In reality, sometimes common sense doesn't makes any sense btw

    Best Regards,
    Last edited by UNIDENTIFIED; Sep 17th, 2014 at 22:59:04.
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by UNIDENTIFIED View Post
    Dear Psikie,

    sometimes common sense doesn't makes any sense in reality

    Best Regards,
    Mmmhmm in certain realities I would agree. However let me leave you with a quote I've heard told to my female cousins that I think applies here.

    "A man doesn't buy the cow when he gets the milk for free."

    Just let that sink in for a moment.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Mmmhmm in certain realities I would agree. However let me leave you with a quote I've heard told to my female cousins that I think applies here.

    "A man doesn't buy the cow when he gets the milk for free."

    Just let that sink in for a moment.
    Let's ignore the F2P market and how AO could profit from it because of your ignorance, then.

    At the moment, subs are dwindling. Joel was pretty clear on their steady decline over time.
    If the game doesn't go F2P (with an updated Item Shop model), it will shut down at some point in the near future.

    I hate the F2P model. I prefer subs. But paying 17€/month (sure, US players pay less but that's just another issue altogether) is ridiculous.
    People like me, who love this game too much for their own good, have the game subbed for over a year at a time and want to keep it running.
    New players will avoid paying for a single month because 17€ is almost two months of every other game out there. But they won't mind spending 1-2€ at a time on the item shop for access to certain features of the game.
    Often enough that equates to ~5-10€ /month. From NEW players.

    Ideally one would have a F2P model that would include up to the Shadowlands in content and then "access passes" that would allow a character to run some AI content, use GMI, etc. Some extra content made with this in mind would also be smart to have.

    One would be naive to go F2P and not change anything else in the game or item shop. That was, I believe, never suggested in this thread.
    But to follow the F2P model that's currently raking in cash for most other gaming companies would be a bigger effort. Possibly too big for AO's current team, too.

    Time will tell. But Psikie's views on how F2P works are very outdated / lack information. A quick browsing around the value of F2P MMOs out there will tell you that they don't really run on charity/lack funds the way AO does. Curious, isn't it?
    The idea, following the rather sexist and outdated analogy he chose, is that you visit the cow for free but still have to pay for the privilege of milking it yourself. Premium quality milk that has been milked for you is also available.. at a premium price! No free milk involved.
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Sep 16th, 2014 at 17:29:26.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
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    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
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  7. #187
    The word free can be easily misunderstood because nothing in this world is really free, not even free to play games, or free milk. Someone or something has to pay in order to maintain.
    The term Free to play is like marketing (people goes WoW really !? its Free !?), but in reality F2P is nothing new, it is just a more flexible paying model. The fan boys/ big whales will pays, the veterans pays once a while and the casual guy who doesn't pays, but everyone still contributing to the community with their activities.
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Let's ignore the F2P market and how AO could profit from it because of your ignorance, then.
    I would be curious to know where a person could find numbers on how many current froob players make item shop purchases, and IF those purchases out spend the current monthly subscriptions being paid. I would dare to say if that were the case AO would already be F2P with your logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    The idea, following the rather sexist and outdated analogy he chose, is that you visit the cow for free but still have to pay for the privilege of milking it yourself.
    While I do not consider that analogy sexist at all, more of a truthism actually. Perhaps you do not understand it.

    While obviously your opinion seems to state you think I am some ignorant sexist I will do my best to politely explain this to you. If someone is getting something for free there is no reason to pay for it now or make any commitment to pay for it later. It could easily have been applied to any "free lunch" scenario.

    When have you ever had a work or school party with free catering or pizza and decided to tip the caterers or pay your own way instead of getting it for free? I highly doubt anyone in that situation would EVER decide to fork up cash. But somehow you seem to think a 12yr old+ virtual game with no real tangible substance other than entertainment value would magically provoke people to loosen the tight grip on their wallets.

    Laughable just typing that out it sounds so absurd.
    Last edited by Psikie; Sep 16th, 2014 at 18:10:19.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  9. #189
    The world is absurd man.
    There is something called "Black Friday" in America. Youtube it, and you will finds hilarious and laughable videos about people going crazy on Black fridays. Not normal crazy but i mean like willing to KILL craziness.

    The whole part of Black Fridays is to make people come to their store, buy items that is cheap it looks like free. But something absurd about humans are, many of us are not satisfied until we go home from Black Fridays with a whole bunch of useless stuff we have bought along with the cheap items we were supposed to buy.

    Back in 2004 Funcom luanched the froob program and it was intended to last only 1 year, but what happened during that time can be described as black friday effect. Players enjoyed the froob program and many upgraded their account after 1 year.
    Funcom had to extend the froob program for another year due to this, and since then the program have been permanently.

    The point is Black Fridays and Froob program are using sales techniques i explained in previous post "sacrifice a clementine, in order to gain a orange"
    Last edited by UNIDENTIFIED; Sep 16th, 2014 at 19:03:23.
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by UNIDENTIFIED View Post
    The world is absurd man.
    There is something called "Black Friday" in America.
    You do realize black Friday is 1 day out of the year? You also mentioned a lot of froob players upgraded to paid subscriptions. Well that true but is slightly misleading, because...

    1. They offered FREE upgrades up to current expansions with no additional charge. (NW/SL/AI)
    2. The majority of those upgraded did NOT continue subscriptions after the first year. (probably because they were used to getting it free)

    The point is do I think population would increase with fully F2P, absolutely. (big majority would probably be multi logged players)

    Do I think the item shop could support future development of AO, absolutely not. (engine, patches, devs pay, new content etc)
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    I would be curious to know where a person could find numbers on how many current froob players make item shop purchases, and IF those purchases out spend the current monthly subscriptions being paid. I would dare to say if that were the case AO would already be F2P with your logic.






    While I do not consider that analogy sexist at all, more of a truthism actually. Perhaps you do not understand it.


    While obviously your opinion seems to state you think I am some ignorant sexist I will do my best to politely explain this to you. If someone is getting something for free there is no reason to pay for it now or make any commitment to pay for it later. It could easily have been applied to any "free lunch" scenario.


    When have you ever had a work or school party with free catering or pizza and decided to tip the caterers or pay your own way instead of getting it for free? I highly doubt anyone in that situation would EVER decide to fork up cash. But somehow you seem to think a 12yr old+ virtual game with no real tangible substance other than entertainment value would magically provoke people to loosen the tight grip on their wallets.


    Laughable just typing that out it sounds so absurd.
    Again, you seem to ignore the major point.
    You focus on froobs and the current model, closing your eyes to the larger reality of gaming and to the swathes of players that switch from F2P game to F2P game.

    You're missing the point altogether and making yourself look extremely close-minded. You can't just look at froobs and how much they currently spend if you're talking about changing the gameplay model! That would be ridiculous!

    Look for stats on F2P games out there in the market. READ. Educate yourself.

    I have.

    Here's a good place to start at (not the best, but good nonetheless):
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=f2p+games+revenue
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Sep 16th, 2014 at 19:24:59.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  12. #192
    ... You also mentioned a lot of froob players
    According to my word count i mentioned:
    Black friday: 5 times
    Froob program: 4 times

    1. They offered FREE upgrades up to current expansions with no additional charge. (NW/SL/AI)
    I recommend you to reread what i wrote about the word "Free" in some of my previous posts.
    In this case, the word "Free upgrade" is just marketing, in reality you have to pay a sum for first monthly fee in order to upgrade.

    2. The majority of those upgraded did NOT continue subscriptions after the first year. (probably because they were used to getting it free)
    Well i did, same did for 2 of my real life friend. In my opinion the froob program was the main events that helped AO reach all time high populations in the following years.

    However, i feel like it is a waste of time discussing with you because you obviously dont read my posts, so i will go in 2 years exiles.

    See you in 2 years, GOODBYE!
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  13. #193
    Dudes, just let go, AO is dead.
    Engine, NPE, rebalance, marketing, STEAM, F2P should have all come many years ago.

    My last sliver of hope is that FunCom folds. After a decade of piss-poor financials it's about time.
    Maybe a real game developer buys the assets and kicks out all these dimwits that have been mismanaging everything.
    If a new owner decides that AO is worth saving and then pours real money and real resources into it again, maybe it can be saved.
    Otherwise FunCom can't do nothing that isn't too little, too late now.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Again, you seem to ignore the major point.
    You focus on froobs and the current model, closing your eyes to the larger reality of gaming and to the swathes of players that switch from F2P game to F2P game.
    Actually I'd say that is the point. Froobs are already F2P in AO for a good chunk of the game. (up to lvl 200) If the CURRENT PLAYERS do not see the value in the item shop to the extent it could REPLACE subscriptions, how can you honestly justify ignoring the subscriptions that keep the game on life support as is? Are you seriously saying that some Perfect storm of new players are going to rotate into 12yr old AO and replace or exceed all the subscription money on a monthly basis? What happens after the first 2-3 months when that tide of new players has any and everything from item shop they want? Where do the residual payments come from at that point? Must be from those new players that don't bother with AO right now who will suddenly realize SL is free even though they don't care RK is free atm.

    Or are you trying to convince me that if you didn't pay $15/month you would be compelled to spend 15$ MINIMUM in the item shop every month? How much have you spent in the item shop as of todays date? Have you spent more in item shop over the last year than your subscription? Because I don't see it, in fact I don't think its possible without duplicating unneeded purchases.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by UNIDENTIFIED View Post
    I recommend you to reread what i wrote about the word "Free" in some of my previous posts.
    In this case, the word "Free upgrade" is just marketing, in reality you have to pay a sum for first monthly fee in order to upgrade.
    Actually 2 of my froob accounts were upgraded without paying first month. Just an fyi, it was from promo email once during holidays other during anniversary.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Actually I'd say that is the point. Froobs are already F2P in AO for a good chunk of the game. (up to lvl 200) If the CURRENT PLAYERS do not see the value in the item shop to the extent it could REPLACE subscriptions, how can you honestly justify ignoring the subscriptions that keep the game on life support as is? Are you seriously saying that some Perfect storm of new players are going to rotate into 12yr old AO and replace or exceed all the subscription money on a monthly basis? What happens after the first 2-3 months when that tide of new players has any and everything from item shop they want? Where do the residual payments come from at that point? Must be from those new players that don't bother with AO right now who will suddenly realize SL is free even though they don't care RK is free atm.

    Or are you trying to convince me that if you didn't pay $15/month you would be compelled to spend 15$ MINIMUM in the item shop every month? How much have you spent in the item shop as of todays date? Have you spent more in item shop over the last year than your subscription? Because I don't see it, in fact I don't think its possible without duplicating unneeded purchases.
    I am merely saying that an extended, redesigned free to play model including SL (not going full f2p) + lowered subscriptions to 2014 values (let's say 9€/month for 1 month and smaller discounts than those in place for now if you're paying for a longer time.. and the equivalent in USD) would be much, much better.
    You're stuck in a rut trying to equate the current Froob experience with what a proper F2P model is in 2014. Follow the link I've sent you and learn what "free" means in "f2p" and why it's making millions for companies adopting it.

    Being uninformed hurts your argument more than anything else.

    Making it simple for you:
    Current players would pay 6-8€/month depending on if they pay 1, 2, 3, 6, 12 months at a time.
    Current froobs would see their content expanded into SL (which will prompt a lot of people returning to the game if marketed together with the new engine!). New players would also be part of the pool here, and only a proper rehashing of the current content into something with some sense and sequence would work there. Yet another can of worms I'm not touching.

    Still, those froobs would have, for example, no access to some features. Like garden keys. They can use insignias, but have to pay for keys. This is just an example, I don't design games so I'm sure there's better ways to funnel €/$ out of people's pockets using similar gated access (like every other F2P game!).
    The overall result would be positive as everyone would get a slice of the cake.. and the new SL froobs are much more likely to spend money on the "simple pleasures" like having access to garden keys than on most of the current items. (I'm aware garden keys are one of the current items, but at the moment froobs don't have any advantage in buying them, which only furthers my point that the Item Shop should be redesigned!)

    Go research other F2P games. See how THEY make money. Then try understanding how easy it would be to apply similar concept to AO.
    You will likely then see the flaws in your current arguments and correct them. Until then, you're a broken record.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  17. #197
    I dunno, I think the addition of Shadowlands more than justifies the subscription price, and I think the RK content alone is compelling and robust enough to give a free player a great experience. Perhaps opening Nascence as a froob-facing teaser would be good, and allowing some SL only items, but I wouldn't make the whole expansion free. However, I'm not opposed to the idea of a lowered subscription price given the title's age. I don't mind the price where it is, but it's an older title, and the precedent is there.

    For comparable titles, Ultima Online (now nearly 17 years old) is $12.99 and has no f2p variant. I don't mind subscription costs as long as I can afford them, and I actually prefer to pay for older games just for the sake of supporting them, so I'm fine at this price for UO.

    Asheron's Call is now Buy-to-Play with the promise of zero future development, but before development ceased earlier this year it was a cool $9.99 monthly. It's about 15 years old, I believe?

    And as for Everquest, while it does have a free option, SOE has done something unique. For $14.99 / month, you get a sub to *all* of their games: EQ, EQ2, DCUO, Planetside/Planetside 2, and it will include EQNext when it's released. I'm probably missing one, but I can't be bothered to check, as I only play EQ and occasionally EQ2.

    It's worked pretty darn well for SOE, and it may be effective at Funcom to leave the sub cost where it is, but make it "all access." I do play TSW as well, and I know several other players who do, and/or AOC. "One sub to rule them all" would likely encourage more microtransactions across the board, and may even entice some AOC and TSW vets to give AO a try.
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Go research other F2P games. See how THEY make money. Then try understanding how easy it would be to apply similar concept to AO.
    You will likely then see the flaws in your current arguments and correct them. Until then, you're a broken record.
    Besides the obvious dodge of my question to you, IE How much have YOU spent in item shop over the last year, we can just say that we have a difference in opinion I suppose. I totally understand how F2P works. I also understand the F2P games that I have played I stopped as soon as I got to a point where I needed to Pay to Play. That my dear reader is what I call a "bait and switch" and I refuse to be bamboozled into that.

    All that aside YOU refuse to acknowledge my point. AO is a not such a linear game that you can design it to say X players will need to spend Y dollars to progress and play. There are no ways to force/convince/persuade players to pay for anything UNLESS you attach item shop to zone progression or rings, or to advance to the next title level. Not only would that absolutely be horrible, but it has no longevity either.

    That's the problem with trying to adapt AO to some pie in the sky F2P model it would have no longevity to making money! Once you exhaust the item shop on your first toon you really don't ever need it again. Count that 1st toon maybe spend $50-$75 in item shop for lvl boosts, social items, buff cans, tokens, garden keys. Then what for the other 7-14 alts? $75 equals what 6months sub price then how do you keep making money off this player to pay for future development? They have no reason or motivation to pay another cent? For every "successful" F2P there are probably 100-1000 failures.

    The most popular imo are all novelty games nothing with complexity of AO. But even on top of that you those games ALL share something in common...a good to great pvp system. Again something AO is seriously lacking with unbalance in pvp. You can't even really make a F2P let alone a P2Win for AO that would promote players to spend and spend on multiple toons in an item shop.
    Last edited by Psikie; Sep 16th, 2014 at 22:14:43.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Antimony View Post
    Maybe a real game developer buys the assets and kicks out all these dimwits that have been mismanaging everything.
    (
    I personally am VERY curious exactly WHO those people were (Linkedin is good) and exactly WHY they were allowed to do the things they did, (given the results).
    One profession to RoO them all, one profession to proc stun them, one profession to calm them all and in the darkness Exp perk them!

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  20. #200
    Even though we all have different opinions and different point of views of the problem with AO today. But as i can see, most of us agreed on the current monthly fees in AO is not attractive to the MMORPG market, and needs update.

    Funcom marketing department needs to come up with a flexible paying model for AO, if they want to compete with other MMORPG, or even achieves new blooming golden era like back in 2007.
    Last edited by UNIDENTIFIED; Sep 16th, 2014 at 22:51:33.
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

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