Addressing the state of game

[McKnuckleSamwich]

FC: some stuff in game is not fun.

AO used to be fun, some things have been adjusted/tweaked/not addressed/not fixed, which has lead to some things that WERE fun, to become NOT fun.

Fun stuff

• Trash mobs in pande/allappa = easy kills
• Being able to complete previously difficult content fairly easily.
• Being able to level/build a new toon relatively easily because of dailies and previous point.
• Being able to acquire items via the FC shop and/or with veteran points

Not Fun stuff

• Class balance imbalance/inadequacies which drives people to roll new toons because the one they chose doesn't get invited to teams/can't fulfil a 'needed' role
• Getting insta killed in PVP because of some players multi-boxing 100% to-hit attacks
• Signing up for Battlestation and it not running/ghosting/whatever.
• Getting VP but then not having anything good to spend it on.
• Feeling like you can't participate in an activity because of some stigma (i.e. players don't want to PVP for some reason)
• wanting to do an activity but not being able to find people who are like-minded.

Stuff that isn't helping the situation

• Battlestation daily 3x repeatable nerfed
• no XP for PVP daily
• FC "claimed Items" is totally broken - you can reclaim every time you log on...
• Being able to buy VP to bypass the obvious mechanism of PVP to acquire veteran points
• Having too many venues for PVP, ALL OF WHICH ARE EMPTY
• Not enough incentive in general to PVP... You must change this so people actually WANT to pvp.

I'm not sure how it happened, but looking at the post Forz just made about tower wars and Tara in 2004, you can see there's some very obvious differences between now and then, and in no way am I saying everything is screwed now, but the obvious, really obvious problem that AO has, is that the PVP aspect of the game is extremely underpopulated.

How did it get like this? Well, it wasn't always this way. And there are many issues that have contributed, but I think the reality is that something has to change to make PVP fun again, or soon it will die out completely which will ultimately lead to even more sub loss than what we've seen recently.

I don't know what the answer is, but I have a feeling that the appropriate response is going to require a hard, objective look at all the problems plaguing PVP in AO, and trying to find an equitable solution that 1. makes it easy to participate, 2. makes PVP fun again 3. eliminates the instant-kills associated with the multibox issue 4. makes the bonuses from PVP actually benefit the faction but doesn't make it so imbalanced that it becomes impossible to recover

While Battlestation is still kind of cool, it only has personal incentive, and those personal incentives are nearly completely botched due to availability of truckloads of VP via FC shop/ exploits which were over-used to produce a proliferation of VP in game. Battlestation needs a re-vamp which some how produces value-add for the faction that wins, and, the value add can't be as far reaching and permanent as the tower field bonuses.

PVP needs to provide Org benefit, personal benefit, faction benefit. Tower wars already do provide this, but this leaves battlestation hanging out to dry. The other problem is that tower war balance is entrenched by poor mechanics - tower wars at low levels are dominated by fast DPSing groups, and very often change hands without PVP. Then PVP has been significantly degraded lately with FC giving the "OK" to multiboxing.

While battlestation actually centres around PVP, tower wars centre around dubious tactics, hacking/worming out clientside contained information to enhance intel on opposition movement. That isn't PVP, that's real life comp lit providing advantage that exceeds the battery limits imposed by the actual EULA and game builders intentions.

To make PVP "fun" again, it needs to be:

balanced
fast and dynamic
easy to get involved
have appropriate incentives
not entrenched with positive feedbacks producing long term trends that are hard to buck (I would suggest that benefits are timed so there's clear limits on when benefits are up for grabs again)
emphasize team coordinated play in opposition to multibox-insta kill advantage
far less griefing than what we see today (modern NW is fraught with griefing efforts including the meep problem)

How to address these is a challenge and I'd love to hear some ideas.

[Xootch]

On a lot of these points you already know my opinion. And we could discuss for days the details, but I think what it boils down to is: if you want to pvp or pvm - most of the time there is nothing happening. How you solve that is not important, what's essential is that you do. I have posted repeatedly on how battle station could do that, but it's just one option. and before fc could do anything with it, they'd have to fix it first (balance, queue...). That, also, I have said before. But as i said, there may be other, better ways. Point is: I think the one most important thing would be to give players something to do once they log in. That there are times when you can repeatedly run around flagged in borealis and old athen and nothing happens, or if you are lucky you get some "flametells" -is sad enough. That it is the only way to initiate pvp at all is literally game breaking imo.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I totally agree.

In the last 4 years I guess, I've played AO, SWToR, Wildstar, and TSW.

The thing that made me stay with SWToR longer than any of those other games (well Wildstar I didn't even get to PVP once), was that SWToR's PVP system was really good, when I played, I logged in, went to the PVP terminals or whatever they were, signed up, and within minutes I'd be in a round playing one of three different "battlestation"-esque games each with different objectives.

And I was totally hooked. PVP was fun, fast, pretty reasonably balanced - especially pickup PVP (when you met a premade team who were all on voice it could be ugly very quickly)... But the pickup groups were loads of fun, sure many times you get a bit of a gimpy team, but there was really equal opportunity.

In that game there were no faction bonuses, and no long term guild/org/personal bonuses either, everyone worked for their gear and that was all there was. The grind was annoying, yes, but it wasn't like you couldn't compete if you weren't fully decked. But it wasn't even about that. I just remember that it was FUN. There were always people signed up and you could do round after round after round after round and sometimes you'd see the same players and sometimes you wouldn't, but you'd never, ever have to deal with some ass hat 6x logged making a tomfoolery of faction balance, and even if you did, game design CLEARLY didn't support that mode of play.

I think the easiest way for FC to make PVP better is first for them to admit they don't have strong enough control on the engagement parameters.

As soon as they do that it will allow them to make scope changes to the parameters of engagement and exert some level of control to influence both the means and the outcomes to faction struggle. But until then I think it's fair to say players will continue to be disenfranchised, and discontent with PVP in general.

[Merit]

Pvp is icky.

As it stands there is no reason for pvm people to even fathom trying it (with the 3x dailies pvm folks least went to fill queue, afk some xp/vp) now with so many sploits common knowledge, and multiboxing dev blessed, taking your 'fair' pvm/leveling toon to any pvp content is an exercise in futility.

Raw numbers would help, if say 5% of players pvp, another 1000 subs would net 50 pvp'ers, (solid addition to queues/towers) also adding a handful of 'I'll give it a shot' people. With enough casual pvp'ers, not epic omgwtfbbq must kill count/sploit/3 ACDC/winnomatterthecost pvp'ers, the 'sometimes I pvp' folks would have a crowd to blend into, other folks on opposing side with same mindset to pew pew, i.e. actually be fun...

(ofc we're losing subs not gaining them, so issue compounds itself.)

[Traderjill]

I totally agree.

In the last 4 years I guess, I've played AO, SWToR, Wildstar, and TSW.

The thing that made me stay with SWToR longer than any of those other games (well Wildstar I didn't even get to PVP once), was that SWToR's PVP system was really good, when I played, I logged in, went to the PVP terminals or whatever they were, signed up, and within minutes I'd be in a round playing one of three different "battlestation"-esque games each with different objectives.

And I was totally hooked. PVP was fun, fast, pretty reasonably balanced - especially pickup PVP (when you met a premade team who were all on voice it could be ugly very quickly)... But the pickup groups were loads of fun, sure many times you get a bit of a gimpy team, but there was really equal opportunity.

In that game there were no faction bonuses, and no long term guild/org/personal bonuses either, everyone worked for their gear and that was all there was. The grind was annoying, yes, but it wasn't like you couldn't compete if you weren't fully decked. But it wasn't even about that. I just remember that it was FUN. There were always people signed up and you could do round after round after round after round and sometimes you'd see the same players and sometimes you wouldn't, but you'd never, ever have to deal with some ass hat 6x logged making a tomfoolery of faction balance, and even if you did, game design CLEARLY didn't support that mode of play.

I think the easiest way for FC to make PVP better is first for them to admit they don't have strong enough control on the engagement parameters.

As soon as they do that it will allow them to make scope changes to the parameters of engagement and exert some level of control to influence both the means and the outcomes to faction struggle. But until then I think it's fair to say players will continue to be disenfranchised, and discontent with PVP in general.

Couldn't agree more and very much in synch with my experiences in other games. Going further into my more recent experiences with World of Warcraft: Battlegrounds were always fun, objective oriented team experiences. You could join with hardcore PvP gear or be completely in PvM gear. The more diehard PvPers tend to do organized rated battlegrounds (pre-made) or arena teams (2v2 3v3 or 5v5). I think the big difference in AO is that due to our twinking mechanics, 1 solid twink can easily outmatch multiple pvm geared toons. The result is that it is more difficult to obtain anything even remotely close to balance. I'm not sure how they'd resolve that, tbh.

[Legendfluf]

Stuff that isn't helping the situation

• Being able to buy VP to bypass the obvious mechanism of PVP to acquire veteran points

Victory Points not Veteran Points

[Xootch]

Couldn't agree more and very much in synch with my experiences in other games. Going further into my more recent experiences with World of Warcraft: Battlegrounds were always fun, objective oriented team experiences. You could join with hardcore PvP gear or be completely in PvM gear. The more diehard PvPers tend to do organized rated battlegrounds (pre-made) or arena teams (2v2 3v3 or 5v5). I think the big difference in AO is that due to our twinking mechanics, 1 solid twink can easily outmatch multiple pvm geared toons. The result is that it is more difficult to obtain anything even remotely close to balance. I'm not sure how they'd resolve that, tbh.

that is true. however we are currently operating a a totally different level of unbalance. unbalance is not because one toon is setup better than the other. that may be so in twinkwars. but at tl7, where the core of the game SHOULD be, its always uneven numbers that add the greatest unbalance. be it city pvp, tara or towers, usually the folks with more people win. once every century around the turn of tides there are a couple of almost even tara fights which never are fun because of the lag. and in battlestation queuing mechanics almost never give you even teams, not even close. it used to not matter that much because there were just so many people involved at all times that one or two plus minus didnt matter. but today? it is a difference if you play 4 vs 4 or 3 vs 6. I am convinced that if you'd even that out, it would already be a huge step. but where? the only place that is possible is the battlestation. because ao has no other alternative for pvp. towers are zergwars because of assist and very very uneven numbers sometimes meepwars, tara - if it really happens the one time in the year - is full of lags, and city pvp...well. the two improvements that would tremendously help here is: 1.for the love of god, fix those battlestations. 2.remove assist. that won't make all problems go away, but it would help the one pvp instance to run more often and to make mass pvp more interesting.

i've called in mass pvp events for at least 7 years. as much as i appreciate that good calling can make or break even uneven fights, it should not be so. a fight should not be about 1 or 2 or 3 guys being good at what they do and 99 people actually hitting assist and not being afk.

editne minor addition. what i used to love about battlestation were the 1on1s or 1vs2s in the hallways. you could pull one or two people and fight with them pretty separate from the pack. these days is just which side zergs better.

[Traderjill]

that is true. however we are currently operating a a totally different level of unbalance. unbalance is not because one toon is setup better than the other. that may be so in twinkwars. but at tl7, where the core of the game SHOULD be, its always uneven numbers that add the greatest unbalance. be it city pvp, tara or towers, usually the folks with more people win. once every century around the turn of tides there are a couple of almost even tara fights which never are fun because of the lag. and in battlestation queuing mechanics almost never give you even teams, not even close. it used to not matter that much because there were just so many people involved at all times that one or two plus minus didnt matter. but today? it is a difference if you play 4 vs 4 or 3 vs 6. I am convinced that if you'd even that out, it would already be a huge step. but where? the only place that is possible is the battlestation. because ao has no other alternative for pvp. towers are zergwars because of assist and very very uneven numbers sometimes meepwars, tara - if it really happens the one time in the year - is full of lags, and city pvp...well. the two improvements that would tremendously help here is: 1.for the love of god, fix those battlestations. 2.remove assist. that won't make all problems go away, but it would help the one pvp instance to run more often and to make mass pvp more interesting.

i've called in mass pvp events for at least 7 years. as much as i appreciate that good calling can make or break even uneven fights, it should not be so. a fight should not be about 1 or 2 or 3 guys being good at what they do and 99 people actually hitting assist and not being afk.

editne minor addition. what i used to love about battlestation were the 1on1s or 1vs2s in the hallways. you could pull one or two people and fight with them pretty separate from the pack. these days is just which side zergs better.

Well mainly my post was agreeing with what McKnuckle stated regarding why he enjoyed PvP in other games as opposed to trying to define the problem with AO's PvP in a few lines.

I will say this. There are several PvP issues and no single solution will solve them all. Just thinking of your post, the solution for lower level PvP won't be the same as for TL7. As you stated (and I mostly agree) in an X versus X fight in battlestation @ TL7, gear isn't as big of a factor with even numbers. The same really isn't the case in the lower level tiers of battlestation. A level 151, for example, going up against a 200 twink wearing ql 300 ai/ofab and max symbs is not going to stand a fair chance. In fact, outside of battlestations that level 151 wouldn't even be attackable by that 200.

Honestly there has to be multiple solutions implemented to address the specific issues that are impacting battlestations (at low/mid/end levels), tara, notum wars (at low/mid/end level), city arenas, street fighting and I guess places like Will to Fight and the Notum Miner area.

I'm in game pretty much everyday at various times. It is rare to not see some sort of street fighting in Borealis or not find 2 or 3 omni hanging about in Old Athen looking for a fight. There are plenty of people (i..e enough) to have TL7 battlestations run regularly but for some reason those people doing flagged fights in Borealis aren't instead fighting in Battlestations. Why is that? I can count, on one hand, the number of times I've entered a lower level (not the top 2 tiers) battlesation round. I've leveled a heck of a lot of characters and I always sign up and never get an invite before I make it to the next tier. Why aren't people signing up with their twinks or leveling toon?

Like you, I've played this game awhile.. we all know the way your average AO players views things and why they don't bother with certain content (long story-short.. effort vs reward imbalance).

I used to do tower wars back from 2004 when I was fighting for Omni then swapped to Clan and continued fighting for another 3 or so years. Assisting and such was never the make or break issue.. the biggest problem was the lag from all the people and the crowd control mechanism that kicked you out of a zone. Now the biggest battle just seems to be having the bodies to throw at the activity and that's why multi-boxing is so annoying to quite a few.

Honestly, I don't see why they don't just change the way tower wars works to eliminate griefing by creating a situation similar to Age of Conan's siege mechanics:

- In order to attack a tower site you have to buy a disabler item from a NPC that allows you to disable a CT. This item costs X battlestation participation points. (BS participation points being a flat value granted to an org based on whether one of its individual members won/loss a round with a scaling based on the BS tier attended).

- Using said disabler item alerts the org/game of an impending attack and there is a grace period of say 15 minutes before any towers on that field can be attacked.

This solution eliminates griefing, promotes battelstations (as you'll need the participation points to attack a field), gives defenders time to gather for a legit defense and prevents people from just coming in and pewpewing towers to be an annoyance then meeping away. Well they can do that still (meep away) but only so much as eventually they'll run out of points to buy more disablers. Couple this with a more reasonable limit on how long CT's are attackable after being disabled and you have something that might work as reasonable tower wars mechanics. But what do I know.

[Xootch]

- In order to attack a tower site you have to buy a disabler item from a NPC that allows you to disable a CT. This item costs X battlestation participation points. (BS participation points being a flat value granted to an org based on whether one of its individual members won/loss a round with a scaling based on the BS tier attended).

- Using said disabler item alerts the org/game of an impending attack and there is a grace period of say 15 minutes before any towers on that field can be attacked.

This solution eliminates griefing, promotes battelstations (as you'll need the participation points to attack a field), gives defenders time to gather for a legit defense and prevents people from just coming in and pewpewing towers to be an annoyance then meeping away. Well they can do that still (meep away) but only so much as eventually they'll run out of points to buy more disablers. Couple this with a more reasonable limit on how long CT's are attackable after being disabled and you have something that might work as reasonable tower wars mechanics. But what do I know.

That was suggested pretty soon after genele announced that they consider it an issue (maybe by you even, I do not recall). It is the obvious solution for the problem and i totally agree.

[Freor]

<snip>
How to address these is a challenge and I'd love to hear some ideas.

If I got to decide, 3 things I'd do immediately:

- Multiboxing in pvp removed, either by enforcing the eula again or by new mechanics.

- Level ranges fixed, so that 207 cannot attack tl5s, etc. Make it +-1 title-lvl or something.

- Battlestation 3x mission reward thing returned. Removing them was obviously a mistake based on what I've heard about BSs in last months.

After that, some general NW/BS changes. More tower hp, new BS maps, whatever. PvP, and NW especially, is the area of game(s) where small amount of dev work can have huge impact on activity. Why? It's player run gameplay. Devs need to provide the means and enforce some rules, but other than that, players themselves create the activity: wars, all the planning, all the side-activites like leveling new toons and raiding for stuff.

Once these are in working state it's time for other important things like new raids etc. But these take more time and manpower that AO currently doesnt have. Making NW playable again and BSs actually run would give people a goal again, something to do, and the increased activity (if it's not too late already) would help even those who don't pvp.

[Xootch]

I used to do tower wars back from 2004 when I was fighting for Omni then swapped to Clan and continued fighting for another 3 or so years. Assisting and such was never the make or break issue.. the biggest problem was the lag from all the people and the crowd control mechanism that kicked you out of a zone.

i just saw that. while i agree that lag has always been a major annoyance, i do disagree on the assist thing. very strongly. good calling can win fights, if enemy callers are killed early, even outnumbered forces can win fights. i thought that was common knowledge. ...and so was that assisting is the game breaker here. after a couple dozen mass pvp raids, especially with high numbers as a caller it makes you slam your head on the keyboard like nothing else if people don't assist. which they regularly don't because they afk or are just stupid. it is for a reason that before any major fight, people are reminded to assist like a hundred times. because it is literally what wins mass pvp fights. given comparable callers (usually both sides have enough experienced callers these days, and tbh its not that hard to know everyone important to call by name and twinks because of the low numbers), the side with more people assisting wins, not the one with more bodies. I could tell you of a hundred events where we lost because of this and just as many where we won because of it.

the last nw i did was always against a bigger clan group. beating the enemy despite being outnumbered was the last thing that interested me. when people capable of doing the 1,2,3 of nw wars tactics emofree went down while at the same time the remaining opposing pvpers started to be all hardcore fully endgame equipped pvpers with equal experience and towerfights became dm abuseland, this last resort died as well, part of the reason i quit.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Multibox=perfectly coordinated alpha damage+perfectly coordinated assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coordinated calling/assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>partially coordinated calling/assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>not assisting

It's hard to understand just how important assist is until you see how incredibly effective it is with a team of multiboxers all assisting/alpha the same target.

Put it this way: a team of 5 agents multiboxed with all 5 agents unloading on the same target via the assist command produces a 100% kill rate.

100%.


100%.

100%.

100%.

One hundred percent.

ONE


HUNDRED


PERCENT.



100%.


ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.

/game

[Xootch]

good argument, knuckle, kudos

[Teeko]

Multibox=perfectly coordinated alpha damage+perfectly coordinated assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coordinated calling/assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>partially coordinated calling/assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>assisting>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>not assisting

It's hard to understand just how important assist is until you see how incredibly effective it is with a team of multiboxers all assisting/alpha the same target.

Put it this way: a team of 5 agents multiboxed with all 5 agents unloading on the same target via the assist command produces a 100% kill rate.

100%.


100%.

100%.

100%.

One hundred percent.

ONE


HUNDRED


PERCENT.



100%.


ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.

/game

Does Funcom even know how annoying it is for a bunch of 170 agents(YES 170) to insta kill your fully endgame 220 because they all hit entire alphas including stun perks and debuffs(i'm a doc, i don't evade squat, sue me.) paied with 5 aimed shots? All in the name of superiority, right?

[Psikie]

Does Funcom even know how annoying it is for a bunch of 170 agents(YES 170) to insta kill your fully endgame 220

This made me laugh really hard. I get it, I totally get it. Has anyone ever thought the reason people multi-box? I've been following this argument for a looong time. The impression I get from the devs is that multiboxers level the playing field. I know not many will like this observation (perceived on my part) but think about it. The hard core pvp players are 90% in a pvp org that has regular access to end game raids together. The more casual pvp player in the 10% minority can really never face that competition solo and they have no org teams to back them up. So in comes multiboxing, they can take 5 mediocre pvm toons and viola flex some epeen on their own with out the bells and whistles of a fully decked out end game toon.

It always comes down to the haves and have not's in AO. Some people have strong endgame orgs/toons for pvp some do not. Multiboxing seems to allow even a casual player to epeen like a jack wagon the same way hardcore pvp players do.

BS 3x daily was a mess in a handbag. It was a pure illusion that players liked pvp and battle station, they were just there for a triple daily reward. Spawn camping and green kill farming seems to have made all the pvm players run off and leave the play ground. Now it seems those players reap what they sow.

Now of course none of the fine people on the forums would ever behave so rotten of course. But until there is some sort of prof balance and not just combined armor -mongo rage- perks- aimed shot, then don't expect any better. I don't personally like the idea of multiboxing, but I do not like the idea of seeing a new player leveling toon farmed mercilessly for going to the BS for a daily mission either.

So ultimately if you want BS to get population you better find a way to police it yourself, because any new players to AO will quickly be turned off to the idea of pvp from either perspective.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The suggestion for 3x BS dailies is not the same as asking for triple rewards.

Triple rewards was an exploit. I'm certainly not asking for an exploit to be put back in game....

Regarding BS, I'm only suggesting that there needs to be sufficient incentive (that's always been my argument) for people to participate. However that's done? I don't care. I just want it.

In game right now there's about 99% PVM players and 1% PVP players.

^^ is a problem. I want it fixed.

[Xootch]

In game right now there's about 99% PVM players and 1% PVP players.

^^ is a problem. I want it fixed.

give a remaining population of roughly 50, i wonder who you count as half a pvper someone with only 3 accounts to multibox?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ugh.

[Amickson]

Regarding BS, I'm only suggesting that there needs to be sufficient incentive (that's always been my argument) for people to participate. However that's done? I don't care. I just want it.
In game right now there's about 99% PVM players and 1% PVP players.
^^ is a problem. I want it fixed.

Seriously, this is like any other mmo out there, there's no problem to fix there. PVP in mmo's is destined to fail. Just accept that no incentive turn pvm players to like pvp. IMHO AO developers should stop balance madness in the name of pvp. What is needed is consolidation of classes to select roles, you can't find a place for 14 different profs anymore.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Seriously, this is like any other mmo out there, there's no problem to fix there. PVP in mmo's is destined to fail. Just accept that no incentive turn pvm players to like pvp. IMHO AO developers should stop balance madness in the name of pvp. What is needed is consolidation of classes to select roles, you can't find a place for 14 different profs anymore.

You're off your rocker.

"PVP in MMO's is destined to fail. Just accept that no incentive turn pvm players to like pvp."

That's a pretty ballsy statement, but can you back it up with a reference? I'm going to bet if you can come up with ONE example, it's going to be in a game that's failing, and in that case I'll argue that it's lack of proper incentive that keeps people interested. Lack of incentive=failed game - not just failed PVP, but failed game.

If there are no incentives, there's no game. It's that simple.

Here's an example for you. Lets take the age old game of Tic-Tac-Toe.

It's a really good example of PVP game with incentive. The incentive is obvious, if you win you get to slag your buddy for the rest of his life. But if you lose, he's going to call you out as a retard for the rest of your living days.

The INCENTIVE, is that your reputation as "not retarded" is on the line. If your buddy loses, you get to claim tactical superiority over him until he decides to kill you with an axe in your sleep.

You can only play Tic-Tac-Toe so many times before you run afoul of the problem, otherwise known as a "headache", at which point the real incentive is to stop playing.

Anarchy online isn't so different, except you don't really know who the other people you're playing against are, so you can't really call them a retard, and, heck, someone of them might be mentally handicapped or otherwise, which adds further complexity to the incentive balance. Realistically, we all want to claim intellectual, tactical and unadulterated superiority over the other dudes, because lets face it, that's the reason we play AO. But lets be honest, if we wanted to stomp and crush things, we could just hang out in a backyard and kill leets all day, hell, they don't even have AC's so you'll always crit for max dmg!

So is that really the incentive? Hell no!

So the incentive must be something else. Well, lets check the fun-o-meter. So how many times do you think people stop and decide they don't want to go on after they beat the fire room in DB3? We all know doing the fire room offers the awesome euphoria of completion whence it's completed. That's probably incentive enough to keep doing it!

Right?

So how many people have decided not to keep going after the fire room?

NONE.

Clear the euphoria of beating the fire room wears off in just enough time that they actually decide to carry on with the instance.

Do I need to keep going here?

Incentives are ALL THERE IS. If you want people to play your game, you need to incentivize it, or they will stop. That's it, that's all there is.

If you don't think so, please go visit Will to fight and enjoy your stay there. I recommend checking out the brick on the left hand wall, 37 steps in from the door, 4 up from the bottom. When you find it, you should stare at it for a while. If you don't like it, don't worry, it just takes a little while for the thing to happen, and when it does, you can come back here and edit your post.