Addressing the state of game

[Ophiuchus]

If there were Dev resources, I'd campaign for an ELO-style hidden ranking system for Battlestations that assigns each character a 'rank' that is based on a variety of factors related to their performance in PvP. Then attempt match-making by distributing people across the teams evenly based on their rankings. Rankings change over time of course, depending on how that character performs, and the idea would be that a twinked character would be put in a team opposed to another twinked character. Pre-made groups would automatically be given the highest ranking and therefore be put against the best of the non-premade characters. Could even attempt to balance professions somewhat, such as profs with healing being distributed evenly. I've seen that system work reasonably well elsewhere.

Sadly that would also require 1) enough people that would want to participate and 2) having the 3 teams be completely faction-independent. To solve 1) needs major kick up the backside in terms of incentives, though I'd hope that having a match-making system in and of itself would help to encourage people too. Bit circular there. To solve 2) that ought to hopefully be an easy code flag. It won't be popular with everyone of course, especially people who want to keep an RP head on. But for the sake of balance and matches actually running, it's a necessity. (RPers can imagine it's just a training sim )

[Teeko]

The suggestion for 3x BS dailies is not the same as asking for triple rewards.

Triple rewards was an exploit. I'm certainly not asking for an exploit to be put back in game....

Regarding BS, I'm only suggesting that there needs to be sufficient incentive (that's always been my argument) for people to participate. However that's done? I don't care. I just want it.

In game right now there's about 99% PVM players and 1% PVP players.

^^ is a problem. I want it fixed.

One huge problem with this is the playerbase. The superiority complex that alot of the top PVPers have turns people away. Why would someone want to try to pvp when they are just going to get farmed and laughed at when they give it a shot? Without the incentives, they have no reason to. The incentives get them to pvp, they may decide they kind of like it and want to gear their toon more towards pvp....eventually they could get pretty good at pvp. Its a never ending circle and the amount of pvpers will always be lower than pvmers because of one thing: You can be pvm and pvp, but you cant be pvp and pvm(other than 12m because everyones gotta pvp with that buff nowadays)

[Psikie]

One huge problem with this is the playerbase. The superiority complex that alot of the top PVPers have turns people away. Why would someone want to try to pvp when they are just going to get farmed and laughed at when they give it a shot?

At least someone gets it.

I personally prefer duels to mass pvp. I do not like getting gang banged by 4 players when I know I could beat any of them 1 on 1.

[Teeko]

At least someone gets it.

I personally prefer duels to mass pvp. I do not like getting gang banged by 4 players when I know I could beat any of them 1 on 1.

Agreed. And on top of that people would never consider me a pvper. People say that because my doc has doc pistols, i prefer the setup to an AS setup, I've tried them both several times, just a preference. I also have a terrible duel score, because I don't farm people that I can beat consistently. I would rather duel someone that beats me and try to figure out how to win, so my duel score suffers. So I always hear the same things; I beat someone: "haha that guy just got beat with a PVMer" or if I lose: "you would have won against that guy if you were in a pvp setup" pvp setup? seriously? My doc does exactly what I want it to do, how I want it to do it. But the constant judging of players that don't fit the norms turns people off from pvp.

Then you have that perpetual 4v1 gangbang which I am all too familiar with on account of playing a doc >.> This is just stupid guys. I understand you need to drop a doc, so I don't complain much about it in that instance. But if someone is flagged, they want to pvp. They don't want to be farmed by a team. They don't want to have to run to a backyard to survive an onslaught of idiots that have to stroke their epeen with insane alphas that noone can survive coupled with an amazing root that means certain death.

I'm not saying I'm some awesome pvper, but there is plenty of people that I have been killed by that made me think "heh if there was only one of those guys, that would have probably turned out alot different." But people don't see it that way. People think "lets get a few people together to kill this one flagged guy in bor" or "everyone go into sneak and we will all alpha this guy at the same time." Now I know what your thinking. "playing fair is overrated" and "this is a game, people don't play fair" Cmon people. Noone wants to pvp because people in this game suck. Were *******s. We talk about how great we are to noobs then we farm them and talk smack. Were all adults and noones going to play this game without some support from us vets. We are the only ones that can recruit players, and this is not the way to do it. Step up, thats how you get player retention. You can't all sit around and farm newer people and then complain when they leave the game. They think it sucks, they think it needs balance. This game is balanced okay-ish in a team perspective but we are always exploiting any and every advantage we can so we can go out solo and kill 2 newer players. Why? Because it makes us feel good. Makes us laugh. Makes us feel "better". Have fun with that when you have noone else left to kill, people.

[Teeko]

The suggestion for 3x BS dailies is not the same as asking for triple rewards.

Triple rewards was an exploit. I'm certainly not asking for an exploit to be put back in game....

Regarding BS, I'm only suggesting that there needs to be sufficient incentive (that's always been my argument) for people to participate. However that's done? I don't care. I just want it.

Maybe VP rewards that are worth it? Its supposed to be a daily reward, however its about the same as a normal BS run, so you do one BS run, and get double VP that round. Thats not worth it. Also, get rid of the battlestation terminals and make it an interface accessible from anywhere, like the vehicle window.

[Freor]

Has anyone ever thought the reason people multi-box? I've been following this argument for a looong time. The impression I get from the devs is that multiboxers level the playing field. I know not many will like this observation (perceived on my part) but think about it. The hard core pvp players are 90% in a pvp org that has regular access to end game raids together. The more casual pvp player in the 10% minority can really never face that competition solo and they have no org teams to back them up. So in comes multiboxing, they can take 5 mediocre pvm toons and viola flex some epeen on their own with out the bells and whistles of a fully decked out end game toon.

Too bad all the pvp-boxers (last I checked) were/are in PvP orgs. They are the ones farming "mediocre" players (as well as non-boxing twinks), not the other way around. And your average casual player isn't going to have 6 accs to box with.

Maybe VP rewards that are worth it? Its supposed to be a daily reward, however its about the same as a normal BS run, so you do one BS run, and get double VP that round. Thats not worth it. Also, get rid of the battlestation terminals and make it an interface accessible from anywhere, like the vehicle window.

Adding more stuff buyable with VP could help as well. Healkits (not BS-limited), perhaps CRU, etc. Hell, even leadbots - would also help with the skyhigh prices.

[Psikie]

Too bad all the pvp-boxers (last I checked) were/are in PvP orgs. They are the ones farming "mediocre" players (as well as non-boxing twinks), not the other way around. And your average casual player isn't going to have 6 accs to box with.

I guess we run in different circles...I know 2 players that MBox, most of time they have 1 paid and a bunch of dancing froobs in Bor. When they would go to pvp they always took at least 2-3 aimed shot froobs with their paid toon lol, and none were really more than avg geared. With the new "deflect" it would not surprise me if that sort of thing becomes more common in the future for pvp.

[Teeko]

Multiboxing is just plain dirty in PvP and it doesn't promote PvP or fun in any way. It only serves as another reason for people to flex epeens and send people packing back to other games. The devs won't do anything about it, so players need to. If we just didn't multibox in PvP, this wouldn't be an issue

[Xootch]

Multiboxing is just plain dirty in PvP and it doesn't promote PvP or fun in any way. It only serves as another reason for people to flex epeens and send people packing back to other games. The devs won't do anything about it, so players need to. If we just didn't multibox in PvP, this wouldn't be an issue

so you expect people to pay for multiple accounts but expect them not to make the most of them in pvp? Good luck with that.

Adding more stuff buyable with VP could help as well. Healkits (not BS-limited), perhaps CRU, etc. Hell, even leadbots - would also help with the skyhigh prices.

yes. the solution to a deranged economy is to make everything worthless.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I don't think there's any argument anywhere on forums suggesting that you "need" multiple accounts, or that you're "expected" to pay for multiple accounts.

There are of course ways to use multiple accounts in PVP without introducing the kind of disparity that we're currently seeing.

I mean, not to point fingers or anything, but lets just compare for a minute what normal people do, then look at what "some" people do.

Most people: have a second account with a fixer to Fgrid them.
Some people: have several accounts with an engineer parked at prime locations to warp teams directly to a tower site to bypass Fgrid completely

Most people: have a toon or two on the second/third account with which to buff their main twink
Some people: have 5 NT's, 5 crats, or 5 NT's on follow to obliterate opposition

Most people: play AO for entertainment
Some people: invest their entire life in AO

Ya, so sure I get that if you invest your entire life in AO then you should reap some benefits. I got no problem with that.

But I also have two kids, and there's this really good book I read them, it's about a goat who is a bully, and it rhymes, so there's this great hidden message in the book but it's not really clear until you think about it... but the kids in the book try to include the bully because that's what is nice to do, invite the bully to join the activity, but when the bully just carries on with his rampage, the kids walk away. They don't want to play with the bully.

It's interesting because do you know what clan does now when Foob logs on?

We leave.


when five agents sneak in an empty zone, how many people see him?

none

Poor foob.

[Teeko]

See though you bring up foob, but its not all him. Instead of logging off, clans are now bringing their own agents. Just last week we had about 6v6 clan vs omni fight in bor, everyones having a good time, not much backyard hugging, etc. All of a sudden one guy on omni side gets taken out by multiboxing clan agents. I got hunted down by 4 clan shades on my enf. Anyways, I digress. When we asked in vicinity whats up with the agents, we get "blame foob". Noone cares what he does, none of us were associated with him in anyway. Just getting our good time ruined.

[Xootch]

yeah teeko, blame foob will be the excuse for centuries to come for anything. i mean in real life, too, you just screw everyone over for the rest of your life once you happen to have been robbed once. its really poor souls who cannot see that this is no way to set things right but only to make things worse. but what are you gonna do, you won't convince anyone. like piskie said, its only gonna escalate.

@knuckle: so, two things. first: i have never said, anywhere, that mbing in pvp is good. all i have ever said is: i do not see a (realistic) way to stop it. second: imo you underestimate the account thing. over the last years i cannot recall a single player without at least 2 paid accounts to dual log and do stuff. most had 3. while my own experience may not be representative of the whole population, i do think given the low population it does reflect a considerable part of the remaining people. but it doesn't matter. point is: a lot of people have multiple paid accounts. and to expect them not to use a simple program to gain a tremendous advantage simply because one disapproves is just not realistic. if you look at the numbers, or the estimation of people who could do that, i find it amazing how few people actually do that by the way. especially if you consider how many people you could get to do the right thing despite it being disadvantageous (at least in an immediate sort of way) for them in the real world. now before it gets all to philosophical, i'm gonna go sleep.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Xootch, you're absolutely right; and I don't see a way to stop it either - unless it's a sanctioned effort by FC.

There are two very effective ways to deal with it though, and I've see both of them in action regularly.

1. Don't play with them (we see the ****e girls log, we log off and do something else)

2. Don't pay AO. Numerous accounts have been cancelled so don't even have to discuss this further.

But neither of these fixes anything - in fact, it only hurts the game more. If the MB'ers mere presence is enough to deter gameplay, it's not long before the obvious conclusion is drawn that an MB'er cannot exist in the same space as someone else, at which point both parties are dissatisfied with gameplay:

The person who plays "normally" will log off, the MB'er can stand there jerking off because he's alone in the PF, which disrupts other activities he might be more interested in doing.

Either way, one party has ruined the gameplay for the other party.

Since FC has given the "OK" to MB, then you could similarly blame the problem on those who refuse to MB that they are the cause of the problem.

But that's ok, because they just log off and don't participate anyway. So really, in NW anyway, we've basically just got a situation where, if an MB is present, the game is about solo play. And that's fine, MB'er can just hang out in tower sites pew pewing till the cows come home. But if the purpose of MBing is to be able to PVP at a high efficiency, then whoever is doing it is wasting their time.

[Psikie]

there's this really good book I read them, it's about a goat who is a bully, and it rhymes, so there's this great hidden message in the book but it's not really clear until you think about it...

They don't want to play with the bully.

(not directed at you Knuckle but your quote just fits)

You know I paused before I posted here. But I have to say this tickles me because KARMA is a cruel mistress. Most pvp players don't seem to get it that THEY are usually the bully. It's the reason BS doesn't stay packed or run all the time. It's the reason more pvm players don't try pvp more than a few times if at all.

Now I don't know who Foob is nor do I care but it seems to me he is a product of your own actions. You only complain because there is a bigger bully on the playground taking your lunch money. It was all good when you were having fun at someone else's expense but not so much fun on the receiving end?

Who knows how many hundreds of unprepared players have been farmed relentlessly on battle station by players with 5+ solo kill levels. Now someone comes along who is better prepared with his/her MB toons and now it's a big deal roflol. To me it just looks like the shoe is on the other foot now. Just seems most pvp players don't like the power shift.

[Raggy]

Don't know if anyone remembers the really rich guy from Aussieland who used to Multibox Beast on RK2 before this all really kicked off. Basically just did it for kicks and let loot rot because screw other people.

I can tell you there was alot of animosity for Multiboxing on RK2 for a long time because of that. It just shows that when MBing replaces actual people, everyone gets annoyed.

[Traderjill]

Don't know if anyone remembers the really rich guy from Aussieland who used to Multibox Beast on RK2 before this all really kicked off. Basically just did it for kicks and let loot rot because screw other people.

I can tell you there was alot of animosity for Multiboxing on RK2 for a long time because of that. It just shows that when MBing replaces actual people, everyone gets annoyed.

I've noticed that on the forums people tend to complain about multiboxing in PvP and pretty much say "I don't think anyone cares if you multibox in PvM." I pretty much had the same stance, tbh, until a few nights ago when I experienced the negative of multiboxing in PvM. After farming wave after wave of adds at the resurrecting swamp hag spot (biodome key), a multi-boxer in devil inside just came up and insta-ganked the final boss that drops the actual key part. I'm usually not one to care one way or the other about getting OD'd on a mob (using a Trader to farm inf dynas has thickened my skin to such things) but I was so put off by what happened that I logged out of game, for the better part of 3 days and just played something else.

I couldn't imagine if I had to deal with that everytime I went to farm an inf dyna, biodome key or any other outdoor/non-instanced mob spawn. It would be irritating to the point where I'm sure I'd stop playing the game.

Just something to think about.

[Raggy]

(using a Trader to farm inf dynas has thickened my skin to such things)

Oh come on, we're not THAT bad at it

[Traderjill]

We are against shades and crats which is what pretty much most people use to farm inf dynas.

[Psikie]

After farming wave after wave of adds at the resurrecting swamp hag spot (biodome key), a multi-boxer <snip> (don't want to offend anyone) just came up and insta-ganked the final boss that drops the actual key part.

IMO this is kill stealing at it's worst, instead of joining the players there and lending a hand, they lurk around and wait for you to reclaim or jump in at last moment to KS while you have to deal with aggro adds. Back in the day players used to police this sort of thing and either you got blacklisted or in extreme cases a quick tell to your org pres got you kicked. But now a days it seems courtesy has gone the way side and it's business as usual.

[Traderjill]

IMO this is kill stealing at it's worst, instead of joining the players there and lending a hand, they lurk around and wait for you to reclaim or jump in at last moment to KS while you have to deal with aggro adds. Back in the day players used to police this sort of thing and either you got blacklisted or in extreme cases a quick tell to your org pres got you kicked. But now a days it seems courtesy has gone the way side and it's business as usual.

Yeah, I'd never experienced people using multiboxing against me like that. Most of the time I just assumed multiboxers did PvM stuff in instances. Lately however, they've been doing it at inferno dynas and other outdoor mobs so I'm not sure what's going on. Technically it is allowed by Funcom but honestly, if that becomes the norm then it is going to turn off quite a few people. I know i"m not going to start using multiboxing software just to compete because I think the use of multiboxing software is cheating (by my own standards). So mainly I'd just do something else or play something else. I suppose that is no different than those that opt out of PvP for the same reasons.

Pretty much McKnuckle's statements a few posts up are really true imo.