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Thread: Shade is a Joke atm?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Bainzy View Post
    So, reading between your lines a touch here... You want MPs to be a damage dealer, not a debuffer? The only way you can shoehorn that into the game without entirely reworking MPs toolset is a pet buff. So, you want a pet buff? Why not make Mezz Meatball and DPS pets share a line, then allow 2 DPS pets or 1 Mezz/1 DPS - in the same way Crats do; Carlo or Charmpet +Droid iirc?
    I'd love to see that. It's an idea that's been kicked around a fair bit over the years, but we've never heard anything from developers indicating it was under consideration.

  2. #42
    Then crack on Mr(?) MP professional! Point your forum messages at the high and mighty Michizure himself!
    Bainzyy - Level 220/30 Shade
    PvP-ing - RP-ing - PvMing

  3. #43
    @Bainzy My main is crat, I have well geared 220 shade... so really I come and complain about shade damage after playing shade.

    Right now if I want to kill something pvm, shade is my go-to prof. It feels OP every second I play it, kinda ruins all other professions for me.

    No pets to buff, heals, oh**** buttons, epic alpha, good evades, top notch damage, init debuffs, shade is to pvm what fixers are to pvp.

    If expansions are to judge anything... why keeper does half shade damage?

    Crat and Engi come close, Crat is way better for short bursts like Tara.

    But like Justin says, if you are not Doc or Enf you are DD. and compared to everything else shade is a "joke", and offers substantial reasons not to log alts, invite other to team, ... etc.

    Rather than nerfing shade though, give other professions similar DD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  4. #44
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    why keeper does half shade damage?
    How much are you willing to bet its not true?
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Rather than nerfing shade though, give other professions similar DD.
    Cool. So raids will end in five minutes then?
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  6. #46
    @Cratertina Well it certainly appears you're playing Crat badly then.

    Keeper does not do half shade damage, please, this is a wild shot in the dark - try playing the class and observing how others play it first, before flinging wild unfounded statistics (if you can call them that) around.

    No pets to buff, heals, oh**** buttons, epic alpha, good evades, top notch damage, init debuffs, shade is to pvm what fixers are to pvp.
    Wow, having another source of damage is such a pain in my backside! Woe is me! Heavens forbid I have to BUFF it too!

    What is Dodge The Blame? What is LMN? What is Biocoon? What are Battlegroup Heals? What is Meep? What is Sacrificial Shielding? What is AMS? Are these not all Oh**** buttons?

    Good evades? A fixer has more, MA has more, advys have similar, you can build MPs with more, crats with more and keepers with similar.

    Damage; Yes, it does high damage, but a Crat and perhaps even an MA can OD it, Engi's on RK can OD it.

    Init debuffs? They're no where close to Crat or Doc init debuffs and you sacrifice a chunk of damage to use them.

    Crat is to PvM what fixer is to PvP.

    Buffing everyone else to be the same level of damage? You might aswell just remove all the professions and rename them "Heal, Tank, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS". You lose all class originality.

    Compared to everything else shade is only a 'joke' because you're clearly raiding with noobs or in Leechcom (generally synonymous).
    Last edited by Bainzy; Feb 27th, 2015 at 14:51:24.
    Bainzyy - Level 220/30 Shade
    PvP-ing - RP-ing - PvMing

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Bainzy View Post
    @Cratertina Well it certainly appears you're playing Crat badly then.

    Good evades? A fixer has more, MA has more, advys have similar, you can build MPs with more, crats with more and keepers with similar.

    Damage; Yes, it does high damage, but a Crat and perhaps even an MA can OD it, Engi's on RK can OD it.

    Init debuffs? They're no where close to Crat or Doc init debuffs and you sacrifice a chunk of damage to use them.
    Not sure this is particularly accurate. MA in suicide DD set up may slightly OD Shade on RK, but Shade ODs MA by far in SL. Shades have significantly more evades than Keepers. And even with dual-SoZ, MPs can only reach a total of 1,980 AAD+Evade from perks and nanos, and Shades are at 1,967. With more healing and (arguably) better debuffs. And 2-3 times the damage. Additionally, Shades debuff initiatives by 1,400, Docs by 1,452. That's pretty close IMHO. Docs do have the LE procs, but Shades have perk drains and convulsive tremor.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    Not sure this is particularly accurate. MA in suicide DD set up may slightly OD Shade on RK, but Shade ODs MA by far in SL. Shades have significantly more evades than Keepers. And even with dual-SoZ, MPs can only reach a total of 1,980 AAD+Evade from perks and nanos, and Shades are at 1,967. With more healing and (arguably) better debuffs. And 2-3 times the damage. Additionally, Shades debuff initiatives by 1,400, Docs by 1,452. That's pretty close IMHO. Docs do have the LE procs, but Shades have perk drains and convulsive tremor.
    MA in crit setup with +dmg is not suicide setup on an MA.
    I'd like to see where the setup is for that shade with 1967 AAD please? In hybrid PvP build I run with 1422, Def PvP 1542 (I have a 275 transfer up too). So I polled 3 PvM shades I know and in def settup their average AAD was 1290.
    Just for comparison purposes I also asked a Trox fixer what his AAD was in +dmg PvM gear and full def gear. In PvM +dmg gear the fixer was at 2239, in def gear it was at apprx 2850.
    My poorly built PvM keeper has 1215 AAD - which is MARGINALLY less than a PvM shade - as defined earlier.
    My hybrid (not very geared) MA has 1349 AAD.

    Moving to TL now, as you mentioned double Zset - My Double Zset MP in full bunker gear has 2930 AAD.
    It does -920 damage debuffs and -261 inits. On top of the fact it can also NSD.
    -920 damage is *alot* when mobs hit for a couple of thousand.

    I'm talking entirely ON LIVE RIGHT NOW (with the exception of the previous point), so currently Shades have a -850init proc on a 25% chance, which is therefore notably less than -1452 from Docs (+Procs?!) and even more ridiculously less than a Crat -2554inits. If you include convulsive tremor in that, shades have -1550inits, still far lower than doc with LE procs and crat's nanos alone.

    Quite frankly, you appear to be pulling numbers out your arse.
    Last edited by Bainzy; Feb 27th, 2015 at 18:12:00. Reason: Formatting
    Bainzyy - Level 220/30 Shade
    PvP-ing - RP-ing - PvMing

  9. #49
    Ah, sorry, I was using 18.7.0.22 numbers on all of that, and I appear to have not explained them clearly. So, brace yourself: Math. Well, Arithmetic at least.

    First, this is looking solely at AAD and evades from perks and nanos - not from IP, gear, LE research or other sources.

    MP:

    Channel Rage 10 - 100 AAD
    Anticipation of Retaliation - 60 AAD
    2x Shield of Zset - 910 each, 1820 total

    MP total: 1,980

    Shade:

    Acrobat 4 - 190 static, average of 615 from DoF/Limber [(200+800) * (40/65) = 615], total 805
    Careful in Battle 10 - 300 static, 150 average from evasive stance [(30/200) * 1000 = 150], total 450
    Shadow 10 - 100 static, total 100
    SP 10 - 150 static, 120 from vitality, 15 from vigor, 52 from spirit, 22 from essence, total 359
    SR 10 - 30 static
    Improved Prowler - 140
    Trickle from Agility in buffs/nanos - 28
    Winding Serpent - 25
    Triple Wall - 30

    Shade Total: 1,967

    As to the debuffs being better: Again, I was speaking of test live, where it's -1,400 on a 100% proc. But to compare MP and Shade pvm debuffs on test live:

    MP:

    -920 damage and -261 inits, nanos.
    Various nano skill debuffs (NSD has 1/2 uptime).
    Dazzle with Lights (at Starfall 10) average of -129 AAO, -343 initiatives
    Blast Nano (Notum Source 10) average of -880 nano/minute

    Shades:

    -1,400 initiatives from nanos
    -502 AAO from SP 10 debuffs
    Average of -208 initiatives from Convulsive Tremor
    Average of -78 initiatives from Atrophy
    Average of -51 AAO from Blur

    Shade total: Average -1,686 intiatives, -553 AAO.

    If, for PvM purposes, I could trade my MP's debuffs for those, I would.

  10. #50
    Ah, crat and engi can outdamage shades? In what content?

    Any real content like TNH, Beast, 12man, Shade is king, I have seen shades do 400k/minute sustained dd over a few minutes the fight took. Name one profession that comes close?

    Crat does perfectlly satisfactory damage, especially compared to other professions.

    What about other professions? Quite clearly Shade is a joke. Crat naturally is second funniest joke. But for any true balance in world of Doc, enf, DD something has to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bainzy View Post
    @Cratertina Well it certainly appears you're playing Crat badly then.

    Keeper does not do half shade damage, please, this is a wild shot in the dark - try playing the class and observing how others play it first, before flinging wild unfounded statistics (if you can call them that) around.



    Wow, having another source of damage is such a pain in my backside! Woe is me! Heavens forbid I have to BUFF it too!

    What is Dodge The Blame? What is LMN? What is Biocoon? What are Battlegroup Heals? What is Meep? What is Sacrificial Shielding? What is AMS? Are these not all Oh**** buttons?

    Good evades? A fixer has more, MA has more, advys have similar, you can build MPs with more, crats with more and keepers with similar.

    Damage; Yes, it does high damage, but a Crat and perhaps even an MA can OD it, Engi's on RK can OD it.

    Init debuffs? They're no where close to Crat or Doc init debuffs and you sacrifice a chunk of damage to use them.

    Crat is to PvM what fixer is to PvP.

    Buffing everyone else to be the same level of damage? You might aswell just remove all the professions and rename them "Heal, Tank, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS". You lose all class originality.

    Compared to everything else shade is only a 'joke' because you're clearly raiding with noobs or in Leechcom (generally synonymous).
    MA out damage a shade, that statement makes no sense in my world, I only play an MA, well geared and have found a well geared Shade does around 15 to 20% more damage then I can pump out in general

  12. #52
    May the Sploitz be with u Ciex's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    engi can outdamage shades? In what content?
    Aliens, but once this new DKP shotgun is equipped it may be better inside sl also.
    Last edited by Ciex; Feb 28th, 2015 at 18:51:46.
    Asasello, Sottcapo, Ciex, Rychu, Ciek, Zomowiec, Ciekafsky, Rysiek, Chinaski, Libertarian, Propertarian.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Ah, crat and engi can outdamage shades? In what content?

    Any real content like TNH, Beast, 12man, Shade is king, I have seen shades do 400k/minute sustained dd over a few minutes the fight took. Name one profession that comes close?

    Crat does perfectlly satisfactory damage, especially compared to other professions.

    What about other professions? Quite clearly Shade is a joke. Crat naturally is second funniest joke. But for any true balance in world of Doc, enf, DD something has to change.
    As I said previously in this thread, you can't compare shades to other professions solely based on damage. Correct me if I'm wrong but shades are and always have been considered as top dmg and evade clsc prof pretty much since day one. That's what defines them. And more importantly they don't bring anything else to a team but dmg (aside from Shade's Caress, which is indeed nonsensical in its current form as shade shouldn't be a team healer - perhaps changing it to "on caster" heal would make more sense). Crat is excellent support prof (XP buff, off/add aura, init debuffs, calms, roots) aside from being one of the best DDs. Engis offer reflects and blockers for PvP, keeper bring various auras to the team, soldier is more capable tank in general and offers reflects, MAs are going to be very viable team healers after 18.7 thanks to Zazen etc.

  14. #54
    Don't get me wrong, shade outdamaging crat, engi, makes perfect sense, but what about NT's, MA's, professions that at best bring DD to team?

    What can trader do shade cannot? soon with 100% landing init debuff shade will be a good debuffer. caress will be half as good as complete heal, only for entire raid.

    Shade just makes other dd professions obsolete and not worth playing when your goal is to damage.

    Thus is a joke and also one of best solo professions.

    Give similar power to other professions or take some away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Don't get me wrong, shade outdamaging crat, engi, makes perfect sense, but what about NT's, MA's, professions that at best bring DD to team?

    What can trader do shade cannot? soon with 100% landing init debuff shade will be a good debuffer. caress will be half as good as complete heal, only for entire raid.
    Regenerate nanopool, tertiary/quaternary healer, AC debuffer (first and third of which are a godsend to MAs), nanoskill/weaponskill buffer (which is going to be more important in 18.7 with a couple choice professions), and in dire straits, gigantic damage boost or team heal. Also a secondary calmer. You pick a Trader to make the whole team's life a little easier, not to push damage - we were never big damage dealers anyway and were never meant to be.

    Shade just makes other dd professions obsolete and not worth playing when your goal is to damage.

    Thus is a joke and also one of best solo professions.

    Give similar power to other professions or take some away.
    If AO was purely, PURELY based around who did the most damage then yeah, there would be no reason not to roll a Shade. But as it's been said several times by several people, damage is all that Shades bring. They don't buff reflects, their one heal (while good) is on a cooldown and requires focus-fire, they cannot regenerate nanopool, or buff anyone of any skills of note. They can tank pretty nicely at present due to it being Init Debuff Online at the moment but come 18.7 that should, hopefully, change somewhat.
    [[ RYUAHN | 220/21 Opifex Trader
    == Proud Member of Core ==
    [[ ALASTROPHE | 220/15 Solitus Martial-Artist

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggy View Post
    There is literally nothing wrong with {Shutdown Skills} in it's current incarnation. What should be being looked at is the reason why it's needed so much. E.g, the incredible amount of Alpha being thrown around and the fickleness of Evade profs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    I walk in to BS... could not perk people... with 3704 AR and 300 AAD drain... NT facerolled me, shade instagibbed me, after a few minutes I just decided not gonna bother.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos View Post
    Regenerate nanopool, tertiary/quaternary healer, AC debuffer (first and third of which are a godsend to MAs), nanoskill/weaponskill buffer (which is going to be more important in 18.7 with a couple choice professions), and in dire straits, gigantic damage boost or team heal. Also a secondary calmer. You pick a Trader to make the whole team's life a little easier, not to push damage - we were never big damage dealers anyway and were never meant to be.
    Damn, you got here before me

    I should get the huge list of stuff Traders can do tattooed on me somewhere so I can just recite it people when they act silly.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Don't get me wrong, shade outdamaging crat, engi, makes perfect sense, but what about NT's, MA's, professions that at best bring DD to team?

    What can trader do shade cannot? soon with 100% landing init debuff shade will be a good debuffer. caress will be half as good as complete heal, only for entire raid.

    Shade just makes other dd professions obsolete and not worth playing when your goal is to damage.

    Thus is a joke and also one of best solo professions.

    Give similar power to other professions or take some away.
    As I said previously MA are going to be very capable team healers after 18.7, besides they're one of the few profs that can OD shades on several occasions (low HP and/or low AC targets). Latter applies to NTs as well afaik. There is a good thread (unfortunatelly a bit incomplete) showing damage done by most profs on various bosses. Ofc that's just for illustration, not written in stone. I admit I'm not aware of all changes done to NT's toolset in 18.7 but aren't they going to get some significant boost to GIVA?
    Btw what init debuff do you mean?

  18. #58
    Thing is, you don't need second calmer, second healer orthird source of nano.

    Those things are nice to bring to the raid, but in nearlly any situation I can think of, another shade would make raid faster and easier.

    It all happend with add damage to perks, and shades ability to drain add damage.


    Maybe 18.7 will make things so hard, that secnd healer will be required, nano hard to keep up and mandate trader, mp, nt at all raids, then their damage is ok.

    but then again, doc can easilly outdamage MA in zazen stance, and outheal it for good measure.

    Every profession needs to fill a role that is needed. Keeping up hp and nano, should be hard enough to requir support profs. But until that is the case, Shades are a joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by JustinSane4 View Post
    First, this is looking solely at AAD and evades from perks and nanos - not from IP, gear, LE research or other sources.
    Then sorry, your point is invalid - you can either take the character as a whole or not at all.
    In order to compare the two you can't isolate specific aspects of the character and determine one better because of that when characters are meant to be judged as a whole.
    It is entirely possible to distribute AAD between different areas of the character. It doesn't have to be all concentrated into perks and nanos. AAD from gear is not somehow magically worth less than that from perks and nanos.
    (Also, perk actions aren't always running, so you can't include that in a static AAD calc.)

    And for the record AAD != EvadeClc/DodgeRng/DuckExp
    Ask about one, or the other, or the combined value (the characters 'Defense' against specific different attack skills (based off Dodge/Evade/Duck +AAD) ), but don't mix and match as you please - because you defile your data.

    Also, I braced myself for your Math/Mathematics/Arithmetic - then to be greeted by the fact you included 44 out of a maximum of 40 perk points on the shade (with none in your primary damage line (PM) hence negating what this entire argument is about - shade DD) made me want to tear your hair out as well as my own.
    _________________________________________

    They're different TYPES of debuffs, MP is not a primary init debuffer - nor should shade be, so I don't know why that change is being made. So yes, shades have a higher init debuff capacity in their current state on testlive than MPs.

    However I would like you point out some flaws in your calculations anyway - you included Atrophy. Now, any shade knows that Atrophy lies in a perkline you don't really ever want to touch - the reason for this is simple, Atrophy is based off of the MA skill - shades have ~1k MA skill in standard PvM gear with no IP in MA. This means that quite conclusively it is never going to land on anything ever that would require it.
    To top this off, you clearly have a ridiculous perk build (as noted earlier) seeing as you want to use at least 44 perks... then just throw another one into ST1 to get Atrophy (giving you a 45 perk total).

    So you've literally made an entirely theoretical, impossible to build, full init debuff and never hit anything and deal no damage Shade.

    In the perk setup you suggested (as close to as is possible with 40 perks) - a shade has AR pretty much identical to a doctor and very few damage perk actions, which is where your original complaints arose from.

    If you'd like to do calculations with shade PvM builds, I suggest you look them up before you randomly pull numbers and perks from the ether.
    ______________________________________________

    However, even in your theoretical absurd-comparison with 45 perks, temporary perk actions included and evades included, MP has more of your strange brand of 'AAD'.

    ______________________________________________

    I do agree shade is not supposed to be a debuff profession, however I'd gladly swap init debuffs for -920 damage.

    A quick run into Inferno gave me these numbers;

    Mortiig Predator hit you for 1652 points of radiation damage.
    Mortiig Predator hit you for 1880 points of radiation damage.
    Prime Devourer of Light hit you for 1582 points of fire damage.

    920 less of that damage would be lovely. Now, can I have a pet that heals me too please?
    Last edited by Bainzy; Mar 2nd, 2015 at 16:29:04.
    Bainzyy - Level 220/30 Shade
    PvP-ing - RP-ing - PvMing

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bainzy View Post
    Then sorry, your point is invalid - you can either take the character as a whole or not at all.
    In order to compare the two you can't isolate specific aspects of the character and determine one better because of that when characters are meant to be judged as a whole.
    It is entirely possible to distribute AAD between different areas of the character. It doesn't have to be all concentrated into perks and nanos. AAD from gear is not somehow magically worth less than that from perks and nanos.
    (Also, perk actions aren't always running, so you can't include that in a static AAD calc.)

    And for the record AAD != EvadeClc/DodgeRng/DuckExp
    Ask about one, or the other, or the combined value (the characters 'Defense' against specific different attack skills (based off Dodge/Evade/Duck +AAD) ), but don't mix and match as you please - because you defile your data.

    Also, I braced myself for your Math/Mathematics/Arithmetic - then to be greeted by the fact you included 44 out of a maximum of 40 perk points on the shade (with none in your primary damage line (PM) hence negating what this entire argument is about - shade DD) made me want to tear your hair out as well as my own.
    +1 to your entire post. And, im glad im not the only one that spotted this. I even reread the post 3-4 times to try and see if I was missing something. Glad you confirmed I wasn't.

    It seems that Justinsane appears to be a mathematician, but at the same time a magician. Like Bainzy said, not only is that perkline impossible to get, it would leave us doing about the same amount of dmg as a doc. If you want to know why, go read Bainzy's post again.

    /mark

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