Shade is a Joke atm?

[Xootch]

i think shade dd is okayish. i used to hate to go pande with my shade because to play it right you have to coordinate and click and blah all the time. its the most stressful toon to play for me, including doc and enf. so i think that sort of evens it out. but op has a point with the sustainability that is possible, the absorb, the healing, the evades, the init debuffs...all that with the dd and alpha potential, yeah, that's a joke.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Exactly. What about other traditional DDers? MA should be comperable in DD, keeper in tanking, trader in debuffing, advy at evading and hunting? Shade owns all. Situationally crats can but wont do more DD, NTs did for a second bzt nolonger can.

Full disclosure, i have all those professions and shade leaves all in the dust. I would argue Shade is better tank than soldier for most content.

I haven't played MA in a suicide setup, but on RK I think an MA can do comparable damage to a shade given similar setups.

MA's really don't do well vs high AC's. I did a whack of inf mishes lately and a fairly reasonably well played MA was peaking around 190-195 DPM.
Shades I've played with go anywhere from 215-290DPM. I played my crat on an inf hard recently and hit 270k DPM.

IMO a well played shade brings both great DD and ok damage mitigation and overall good utility to a team.
A well played keeper (buffed and good crit setup) brings both good damage and good damage mitigation and thus overall good utility to a team.
A well played crat brings both great DD and great damage mitigation and thus exceeds the value of a shade or keeper.

HOWEVER, if a crat is already present, then a keeper's utility is worth even more than it was before due to the reduction in hit speed hugely increasing the value of WW, which makes keeper's value skyrocket. Subsequently, one would think that may devalue the shade, but it actually doesn't, because the stun procs or init procs supplement the already significantly boosted damage mitigation of the crat paired with keeper.

Similarly, an MA can take the place of a shade with a keeper+crat in team to offer very solid burst init debuffs, and the stuns will significantly reduce the hit rate through init debuffs paired with WW.

Many people think that the best damage mitigation in game is reflects, but blockers paired with init debuffs is about 7x more effective.

Keepers are currently insanely undervalued for boss encounters. Complete mitigation of an 8k damage hit 2x/30s might only mitigate 6% of damage prior to init debuffs, but it mitigates, with a fully init debuffed boss, close to 40% of total physical damage - adding stuns and other init debuffs, it can mitigate up to 100% of all physical damage. Getting 100% mitigation is less rare than one would think, but it does require a fair bit of stun spammage. I've seen 100% mitigation several times in 12m.

Boss encounters with adds certainly decreases that since it means the stunning profs (shade/fixer/MA/trader/agent primarily other than enforcer) become occupied with adds and thus the stuns aren't landing on the primary target.

The overall point I wanted to make though is that it's less effective to compare crat to shade to keeper directly. It's more effective to observe the synergy between profs in terms of either damage mitigation or damage dealing, and then build a team to harness that directly.

For example, You could probably find fairly good success pairing a evasion oriented tank (say a fixer or shade) with an engineer dedicated to standing under beast chaining DVP, with a trader for AR drains, a shade for AR drains, and a crat for IHM and an advy for mother wolf, etc.

Or you could use crat for init debuffs+keeper for watch ward to block damage paired with a shade for further init debuffs.

Basically there's a number of potential methods to survive an encounter by mitigating damage, but some of the MOST effective methods happen to be a direct result of simple logic: slow down the hit rate until blockers refresh faster than the hits arrive. Which can be accomplished quite easily with 3 profs:
Doc/crat/keeper - but adding an MA or shade to the mix significantly reduces the gaps due to inconsistency of doc procs - to the point that real mitigation of damage by reflects is reduced to about 1% of potential damage (reflects mitigation depend on a high hit rate to reach highest potential mitigation), but as soon as hit rate decreases, the usefulness of reflects decrease linearly with hit rate reduction.

In fact - all direct damage mitigation measures (AC's, reflects, evades, absorbs) are least effective under logic based mitigation (reduction of hit rate paired with blocker refresh)

In essence, for anyone who understands, Crat+doc+keeper+MA/shade is putting soldiers and engies out of business.

That's not to say they don't have a place, and given the significant reduction of init debuff stacking in 18.7, the crat/keeper/doc combo will be nearly completely invalidated.

Instead, direct mitigation will be significantly needed to supplement logic mitigation. Evades to lower the number of landed hits, AC's to reduce potential damage directly, reflects to reduce damage taken directly, absorbs to directly lower damage taken, THEN pair that with direct interrupts (stuns), AND logic mitigation: slow down hit rate and reduce hits taken by WW.

[R0sers]

Im a little unsure as to why people are doing Inf mish to measure there dpm lol.... I personally don't think shades are OP, that is to say, our damage is 95% perks even though a big number of them perks are little damage (DoTs), We have 3 big DD perks With a 25 second cooldown which i don't think is OP at all... A good crat who knows how to actually play their toon correctly can equal if not beat a DD built shade. Ive come across DD built shades and still managed to OD them in a evade/def setup, It all falls down to how you play your toon. Shades are very fun but also quite hard to play. You have to think 5-6 perks ahead of what you are going to do before you actually do it or you are just wasting a full perk line for nothing. Ive seen engis and crats both keep up with a shade (both hitting 7m-9m damage) in a raid... If you want to call shades OP, then give them 2 ninja flying pets that leech HP for like 1-3k hp per hit with a 30 second up time and a 2 minute cooldown.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I run dumpers in inf mish all the time because dummies don't give XP. When you got 1.5 hours a day to play AO, it's best to utilize that time to be productive in achieving the goals you need so that your toons get finished at some point.... otherwise I'd ask to be paid and become a tester, but I'm not pursuing that.

The other reason why it's good to assess DMP in an inf mish is that is there you'll spend the vast majority of your time before your toon is "finished". If there was a place to do good damage, it's there.

[Raelil]

Why are you guys even discussing shade vs crat?

Instead discuss vs all other purely focused DD classes nobody plays anymore, exactly because of that. Either dump shades down to a lvl where all the other dd classes can be a part, or buff the shizznik out of the lesser wanted classes, to warrent invites. Instead of feeling like a 5th wheel.

Im thinking in particular MAs, Agents and NTs.

[SaloSalo]

Reminds me of this old video.

[Esssch]

Exactly. What about other traditional DDers? MA should be comperable in DD, keeper in tanking, trader in debuffing, advy at evading and hunting? Shade owns all. Situationally crats can but wont do more DD, NTs did for a second bzt nolonger can.

Full disclosure, i have all those professions and shade leaves all in the dust. I would argue Shade is better tank than soldier for most content.

Don't worry, MPs are still #1 at casting CM

[Gatess]

I'm after about 2years back to the Live Server. I am amazed at the many shades.
after a few inferno missions and some Boss Kills I understood it:

- the shade is twice as much damage as any other Profession
- and he is also almost immortal

Balancing??????

Funcom this a Joke??

the last infmission: shade 8mio damage, crat 3mio damage

it seems to me as it does not know that game where you programmed

I'm just quoting OP again so you guys can re-read on how oblivious this guy is about AO. Still you're discussing this for the hell of it, aren't you ?
God damn forum pvpeers

[SaloSalo]

Balance discussions on forums is often hopeless (in any game) as it will usually turn into biased people theorycrafting nonsense.

[Lazy]

Why are you guys even discussing shade vs crat?Instead discuss vs all other purely focused DD classes nobody plays anymore, exactly because of that. Either dump shades down to a lvl where all the other dd classes can be a part, or buff the shizznik out of the lesser wanted classes, to warrent invites. Instead of feeling like a 5th wheel.Im thinking in particular MAs, Agents and NTs.

none of those are DD classes

[Cratertina]

I was going to start a new thread titled... Elephant in the room...

But there is a thread about Shades being totally OP already.

Something has got to change.

Shade in current form can do 400k+ damage per minute in endgame gear and good perks in any combat scenario with good tank to hold aggro for backstabs n all.

That alone makes all other dd classes obsolete. And for me its a gameplay balance issue. I purpose changes be done to bring it down in 300k range.

Full disclosure, I have a shade, being better than all other similarly equipped chars just ruins it for me.

[Aiken]

You do remember when Shades were a joke tho, right?

Being that Shade is a subscription class that's intended to be a purely damage class, I don't really see the issue with them having so much damage :/

[Ciex]

Cratertina, so you say your ma MP does over 300k dpm and you want shades to do less. Any argument behind that or just "yo, i have a brilliant idea!"? AO has no real dmg classes. Doing 1/3 more than support class is laughable.

[Xootch]

Cratertina, so you say your ma MP does over 300k dpm and you want shades to do less. Any argument behind that or just "yo, i have a brilliant idea!"? AO has no real dmg classes. Doing 1/3 more than support class is laughable.

again, i don't think shade dd is the issue. i completely agree with you. what i think makes shades op is their sustain and alpha potential on top of their damage.

[Saetos]

I think what needs to be pointed out is that Shades were pretty good DD until the mechanics of nanodamage were changed to also incorporate damage modifiers... then they became near unbeatable. With Totemic Rites and Hud3 for +damage along with wahtever else you want to stick on your Shade, you can get well over 1000 +melee and thus a good half or so of your perks deal that much extra damage /each/... and with half of the PM perks that actually applies twice, with the initial DD and then the first "tick" of the DOT taking in those bonuses.

[Bainzy]

I was going to start a new thread titled... Elephant in the room...

But there is a thread about Shades being totally OP already.

Something has got to change.

Shade in current form can do 400k+ damage per minute in endgame gear and good perks in any combat scenario with good tank to hold aggro for backstabs n all.

That alone makes all other dd classes obsolete. And for me its a gameplay balance issue. I purpose changes be done to bring it down in 300k range.

Full disclosure, I have a shade, being better than all other similarly equipped chars just ruins it for me.

I'll make an assumption here, because your name is Cratertina, you have a Crat - yes?
Well. What if I were to tell you that its a seriously close run race between a full DD gear shade and a full DD gear crat - for who can do the most DD - and that usually, the Crat wins.

I can go and get you some data if you like, but you could just ask Shaymin and Cratzalot who regularly fight each other on the DD-o-meter and it normally ends up pretty damn close.

Secondly, you're whinging about a DD class doing DD in a DD setup, I don't understand what the issue is. Do you want to make another class not desirable for teams? I'm sure we've got that issue enough already.

Shade is a subscriber-only class, as Aiken has said, it is supposed to be enticing to pay for to play. If you swing nerfbats at it too hard (as they did keepers over the last who-knows-how-many years) then it is another point which people can complain about "OMG!1!11! I PAY 4 GAIM + GET N0 DD FR0M DMG CL4SS!1!11!".

You can't demand that you bring a full-on DD class down to the level of support toons, like MPs or Traders - they have other reasons they are desired for teams, the fact that they have debuffs for one.
I understand that the issue is they *aren't* desired for their debuffs now, but that is a desirability of debuffs issue, not a DD issue. To make these professions worthwhile, they need to tweak their debuff toolset, not give them more DD.

[Anonimofied]

not only shades, but the world we live in is a joke were good is evil and evil is actually good

[Burgly]

none of those are DD classes

Read the description of MA's on char making screen please, Thanks.

[JustinSane4]

You can't demand that you bring a full-on DD class down to the level of support toons, like MPs or Traders - they have other reasons they are desired for teams, the fact that they have debuffs for one.
I understand that the issue is they *aren't* desired for their debuffs now, but that is a desirability of debuffs issue, not a DD issue. To make these professions worthwhile, they need to tweak their debuff toolset, not give them more DD.

That sounds well and good, but no one - other professions or developers - actually wants powerful debuffers in the game. See, for instance, the broad spectrum nerf cannon blast to initiative debuffs and NSD. This "support profession" nonsense has to stop. If you're not a doctor or a tank, you need either superb team buffs (Keepers, Soldiers, Engineers, Crats) or legitimate DPS.

[Bainzy]

That sounds well and good, but no one - other professions or developers - actually wants powerful debuffers in the game. See, for instance, the broad spectrum nerf cannon blast to initiative debuffs and NSD. This "support profession" nonsense has to stop. If you're not a doctor or a tank, you need either superb team buffs (Keepers, Soldiers, Engineers, Crats) or legitimate DPS.

So, reading between your lines a touch here... You want MPs to be a damage dealer, not a debuffer? The only way you can shoehorn that into the game without entirely reworking MPs toolset is a pet buff. So, you want a pet buff? Why not make Mezz Meatball and DPS pets share a line, then allow 2 DPS pets or 1 Mezz/1 DPS - in the same way Crats do; Carlo or Charmpet +Droid iirc?