Dear Santa

[-Ruken-]

What I would like for Christmas is for you to make all the hecklers no longer give experience, or set their level to 400 so they obliterate anyone that goes near them. I know that it's going to tick off some people, but I have a theory that if this happened, people would find a new way to level and people would spread out into the world a bit more. Santa, you can blame me if it all goes to hell. I just wanna see what happens.

Thanks!

Little Rukie.

[-Ruken-]

/discuss

[Legendfluf]

people would find a new way to level and people would spread out into the world a bit more.

They'd go back to Spirit kiting ... or sit at borgs all day as they really don't want to play the game

and yes, I've seen fully paid people sitting at borgs when they're 150

If they made it so the monsters check what level they're fighting and if they see a level higher than 200, they'd run away... then that would be a lot better change

[Psikie]

If they made it so the monsters check what level they're fighting and if they see a level higher than 200, they'd run away... then that would be a lot better change

I disagree. No you can't just make all grey mobs run either.

1. Some mobs have territorial agro. Example sided mobs will never run defending their turf.
2. Mission mobs can be grey they also will not run.
3. Social agro mobs will defend each other to the death. (Herd/pack mentality)

Now all that aside, if you are seriously worried about hecklers...then you are really focusing on the wrong aspect of your leveling experience. In Ely there are approximately 5 good "kite/pocket" regions for hecklers. That is at maximum 30 players at any given time doing hecklers. So if your game experience revolves around 30 potential players on any given night, maybe it's the population that should be your grief.

I can guarantee you at least 20 of those players would find another alternative either on RK or a different set of dungeon mobs in SL. So you go from visible players at the regular spots so you know people are playing to unseen players still leveling with out you.

Understandably it can be frustrating not being able to find conventional teams I am not dismissing that fact. The difference is you just have to more or less take it upon yourself to make teams in those cases. The best place to start is elite daily missions from lvl 5-10 and up. If you see the same people doing them with you at the same time every day...you should start making your friends list right there. Subway-ToTW-Foremans-Crypt-Mantis even if froob mixed with pay account. RK missions with yellow-red mobs is still xp. I always say some xp is better than no xp sitting.

There are also plenty of rk/sl outdoor hunting grounds that are prime for capped xp other than borgs/hecks. Other than kiting I have no idea why anyone would be lvl 90 trying to do lvl 200ish borgs instead of still capping xp on some 150ish mobs elsewhere.

To me that 90-150 range is where you really learn your toons bread and butter, to me it's the most important lvl range where you are figuring out perks/nanos and ultimately deciding an end game setup goal. (+DD or +Crit, 1h v 2h, melee v range etc)

[Legendfluf]

I can guarantee you at least 20 of those players would find another alternative either on RK or a different set of dungeon mobs in SL.

Don't make guarantees you can't back up.
Most of those doing hecklers are just kiters, tried so many times in that 90-150 level range to do hecklers only to have pockets running by for kiters.

Those who are sitting there for kiting are:
1. Getting kites free from friends
2. Afking for hours to level their character because they cba to actually play

It's surprising that FC is trying hard to make team content, yet everyone is "can we do this solo?"

1. Some mobs have territorial agro. Example sided mobs will never run defending their turf.
2. Mission mobs can be grey they also will not run.
3. Social agro mobs will defend each other to the death. (Herd/pack mentality)

Just make 'em all like tiigs.

[alfora]

Just make 'em all like tiigs.

Please don't!

Making all mobs behave the same is very boring.

Instead let the mobs behave differently according to their type and numbers. Let pack hunters surround you and use backstabs. Let them run away if they are too few. Let stealthy creatures use sneak attacks or aimed shots. Let mobs use snares or heal each other (already in use in some instances). Let them change their tactics (run away to get help, come back with reinforcements). Let them also use other special attacks according to their weapons. Let them use different weapons. Let them throw grenades or lay mines.

[Psikie]

Don't make guarantees you can't back up.

Those who are sitting there for kiting are:
1. Getting kites free from friends

With that one statement you just validated my point. If they are getting kited from friends...those same friends probably told them to go to kite spot and can just as easily take them somewhere else for kiting. DERP DERP

[Traderjill]

What I would like for Christmas is for you to make all the hecklers no longer give experience, or set their level to 400 so they obliterate anyone that goes near them. I know that it's going to tick off some people, but I have a theory that if this happened, people would find a new way to level and people would spread out into the world a bit more. Santa, you can blame me if it all goes to hell. I just wanna see what happens.

Thanks!

Little Rukie.

I don't think this would have the intended effect. But if you were wanting to 'fix' the heckler issue all you'd have to do is lower their level.

- Hecklers in Nascence are level 80. I believe the next highest mobs in that playfield are level 40-50ish. To put that in perspective, the mobs that you kill near P7 for insignias are only level 60-70. At level 60 you can get into Scheol without doing the progression quest.

- Hecklers in Elysium can be as high as level 180ish. To put that in perspective, Mortiigs in Elysium and the mobs that you kill at jump off from Scheol are level 100ish. Most mobs in Adonis, are in the 140-150ish range. The mobs you kill at the start of penumbra, for insigs, are level 160ish. At level 160 you can get into inferno and the mobs you kill at jump off are level 200. In other words you're not seeing mobs exceeding ely heck level until late penumbra/early inferno (with the exception of other hecks).

That, in a nutshell, is why people are drawn to hecks. It is a game design flaw. The best way to fix the problem isn't really to nerf hecks (my opinion) but to simply up the xp gain you get from other sources to make it competitive with hecks. The problem with doing that comes from what I outlined. I'm sure there's some formula that determines xp gain based on factors such as player level vs mob level. In order to up the xp gain for other mobs they'd have to either break that formula (doubt they will) or lower the level of the hecks and then systematically raise the xp gain for all mobs to make it in alighment with what was previously being gained from killing OP hecks in each zone. Alternatively, they could leave the hecks alone and add a bunch of "Kill 20 of this, 20 of that" type missions that have massive daily style rewards.

[Psikie]

I don't think this would have the intended effect. But if you were wanting to 'fix' the heckler issue all you'd have to do is lower their level.

That is actually a great solution. In fact I rarely do hecklers ever. I usually take my toons to the next zone to get capped xp off easier to kill mobs closer to my lvl.

I think this would encourage more players to do the same and get some usage out of sheol-ado from outdoor hunting or dungeons. Also in theory would promote more teaming.

For the vets imagine seeing staging areas in SL similar to how lush hills- pipe area used to be. Or bothackers outside 20k etc. (the good ole days)

[Traderjill]

Just adding another random string of thoughts.

As a player, I honestly don't care if there's some guy sitting afk on kite hill getting xp. Honestly I don't. If that's the way they choose to level their toon then more power to them. What bugs me isn't that they're sitting afk but that there is no incentive or reward for playing the game in a manner to which you'd think it was designed. I can gear my toon up along the way, do available quests, dailies and try to find teams and I'm still not going to come out ahead of the guy that is sitting doing nothing.

The result of this fact is that a good majority of people join the Romans thus making it even tougher for those that want to play the traditional way. Essentially you get punished, in one way or another, for actually playing the game. That is the real issue that Michizure needs to tackle and hopefully he realizes that simply doing away with hecks isn't going to resolve the problem.

[Psikie]

I can agree to this but also disagree. It comes down to ease of play. I can out level kite hill players between certain lvl ranges by doing a combination of hunting, dailies, and dungeons in a team. But it must be a fast paced planned team where we all have a bag of nanos to upload while we hunt.

It is much easier to sit at kite hill from 110-140 but diminishing returns after that imo and before that it is a LOT faster to kill mobs in sheol for the same capped xp. From 140-160 with the elite dailies and reg dailies it's no contest if I mix in some hunting or dungeon crawling.

It's not as easy, but a lot more rewarding. When I log on and see the same people sitting lft for kite hill and I have passed them in lvls it always makes me smile.

[Traderjill]

I'm not a regular at kite hill but I did use that method pretty recently with my keeper. We went from 40ish to about 150 in 2 leveling sessions (nascence and ely). After that I pu ton some gear, did the Ely catas quest for 4 or 5 levels, dailies, hit Adonis, did key quest, dark ruins and then outside tanked my team a few rounds to get me to 160. After that it was, ofc, inferno time. I'm not sure what non-kiting/ost leveling process anyone can be using that would get them from 40 to 160, with research, as fast as what I/we were able to achieve.

And again, that's my point. There is a severe effort vs reward imbalance that needs to be corrected. I put forth little effort and got a significant reward.

[Tryptophy]

I think that what people are doing at kite hill is not so much avoiding play (many are actually playing, i.e. the pocket, the NT, and perhaps a perking crat who has to pay attention) as avoiding spending credits on setups that will become quickly obsolete. If my goal is to make a 150 with full research and I can get it all done in a medsuit, why bother farming up a bunch of armor and lower level nanos that I won't use for the vast majority of the toon's useful life? The upcoming changes to nanos and leveling armor will help a lot with this, but something similar will have to happen with lower level weapons as well if people are going to be more willing to actually fight their way through the grind.

Oh and the biggest obstacle might be implants. You can quickly put on a set of predator armor you have stashed away, but designing, buying, and assembling a set of implants that are obsolete in a matter of hours is a hassle most people want to skip by now.

[Psikie]

Did not count in full research in my lvl hikes. Also im only counting 1 side at hill with respawn times etc. If you have great 220 combo that can pull from Outer Isle, p7, both sides, and all the misc hecks along the way that is also a different story lol.

[Traderjill]

Did not count in full research in my lvl hikes. Also im only counting 1 side at hill with respawn times etc. If you have great 220 combo that can pull from Outer Isle, p7, both sides, and all the misc hecks along the way that is also a different story lol.

Well the other thing worth counting in are those +50% xp cans. While I typically don't use them for day to day leveling, in a kite hill environment they give you quite a bang for your buck. (And Clan also have the Unionist Blessing or whatever its called +35%).

[edmaster3]

What I would like for Christmas is for you to make all the hecklers no longer give experience, or set their level to 400 so they obliterate anyone that goes near them. I know that it's going to tick off some people, but I have a theory that if this happened, people would find a new way to level and people would spread out into the world a bit more. Santa, you can blame me if it all goes to hell. I just wanna see what happens.
Little Rukie.

Ill be frank with you, some people probably will just quit, to many people are already use to a way of life they dont want changed. If they leave many newcomers would come up to take their place, NOT. The more than likely outcome is people not lvling much new alts, they go to borgs and battle over the few of them to kite, they buy levels, the pocket something else, doc CHing becomes more popular for grey mobs. Although i dont see much vets lvlig the same profession for a third time doing the same crap they did the first and second time over again.
Between lvl 100-200 there is already a massive lack of areas to actually go and lvl.

Logically i don't see how punishing normal heck teams just to hurt pocket kiting is worth it. Or maybe you believe hecks give to much xp? If you really wanted to get rid of the hecks, just remove them, putting a lvl 400 easily aggroable ranged mob in ely makes no sense, (If i took your suggestion literally).

No one wants a game to dictate where you have to go to level, especially since their arent enough places to lvl in AO even with a small population. If i wanted to stay on RK I wouldnt have bought expansions, and FC wouldn't have actively sought to kill off all the froobs.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Did not count in full research in my lvl hikes. Also im only counting 1 side at hill with respawn times etc. If you have great 220 combo that can pull from Outer Isle, p7, both sides, and all the misc hecks along the way that is also a different story lol.

This isn't true, actually.

I've levelled countless toons, and I know with certainty that it's faster to level on ely hecks with a team who is decently geared playing the standard method than it is using an OST and NT - EVEN if the OST is good and can pull all the way from BFE to the hill. I know because I've three manned it several times (220 enf in all endgame gear+NT+leveling toon), but I refuse to do it anymore.

The last 6 toons or so I've levelled I did them all using decent equip, team mates and occasionally a 110 MP parked wherever for a heal ball.

The last toon I levelled was an enforcer and I started him on ely hecks at level 80, it was a bit low but I wanted to test some tanking capability, and before long I had a decent team and powered hard to make big gains very quickly.

After counting in the lost time to kite hill disagreements, kite hill drama (never fails), stolen hecks, turn waiting, waiting for spawns, travel time from outer isles all the way to KH, not to mention the slower kill time and whatever else, I'm confident that fast kill teams who run a circular pattern while minimizing travel time between hecks and has an optimized spawn/kill time is the fastest method of levelling available between 90-120. It further is a highly valid method of eliminating risk of encroachment of OST's/kiters due to there never being any hecks present when they arrive to pull (in contrast to the situation described at kite hill).

You said at 110-140 the returns are diminishing, and I agree, but I find that at 120 there's a noticeable drop off in XP gains and for me that's the indicator to start attempting new content. by 130, it's still OK but not great, and at 130 it's always time to go to scheol/ado and if nothing else do key quests.

In general, I agree with your levelling method - go to the next highest area and kill world mobs for fast, easy, capped XP using your toolset to progress quickly and efficiently.

[Traderjill]

Hmm.. but what about the crat doing a 100% xp perk? I'm not saying you're lieing but I just can't see a regular team.. even twinks... being able to do more xp per hour than a decently planned ost-nt team. And even if somehow it were possible finding or forming such a team is going to be extremely difficult/rare.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

It is certainly faster with 2+ crats for sure to makes boosts on the big kills, OR, you're pulling from 3+ areas to get as little downtime as possible for the NT.

I don't want to go crazy with math here or anything, but basically it boils down to this:

If you're OSTing, the kill rate with 1 NT is basically VE chained interspersed with boil blood. Most NT's are pretty poor setup that I've seen so getting anything over about 800 dmg per nuke is rare. 800dmg/1.54s + 104dmg/5s (boil blood) this works out to approximately 32.4k DPM

Now, that's pretty slow damage, but of course we multiply it by the number of hecks pulled to see the damage go up substantially - but you and I both know that it's not the nuking that is the slow part, the slow part is the delay between the last heck dying and the OST arriving with a new batch that is the serious drag on the kill rate.

I've read that hecklers have a respawn time of 10 minutes.

I think ely hecks have about 20-25k health, maybe a bit more or less depending on level, but the mob which takes longest to kill are the horrors who have maybe 25-28k health or something. Either way, lets say an NT takes about 1 minute of chain nuking to kill a batch.

given that it takes 1 minute to kill all hecks, you got a guaranteed 11m wait before all mobs are repopped, plus the time it takes to get all of them back to the NT. A good enf uses taunters, malice and mongo and maybe even perks to pull - in my experience I usually feel kinda lazy pulling mobs so I end up almost always waiting on nano recharge before I can pull more: generally I mongo, move a bit, wait, mongo, move, wait, mongo move wait. probably it takes between 30s-1m to pull a small batch <15, and anywhere from 3-5 minutes to pull a "big" pull, i.e from outer isles all the way to KH. in that pull maybe you get 35-40 hecks.

So, lets say with nicely staggered pulling (one small, one larger) you get a total of 55 hecks pulled and killed over the course of:

1m to pull small batch
1m to kill small batch
4m to pull large batch
1m to kill large batch
(11m-5m)=6m remaining for small batch to be ready
after which time the process is ready to be repeated.
So, the time taken to kill 55 hecks and refresh is 13 minutes.

55/13m = 4.23 hecks/minute

which basically works out to about +/- 15s per mob.

Now, at level 80-100 or so, ya, it might take you 15-30s to drop a mob, but even with half assed gear, with 6 people in team, I'd say you can easily cut that time down to 7-8s per mob but, add in travel time of a few seconds per mob and you got about the same time.

With a good team though, with reasonable DPS, you can shave your time to kill down even more, like, down to the point that in the time it takes you to get to the mob it's dead, melee profs are spamming their specials because they aren't getting a chance to use them before the mobs dead-let alone perks. around level 100-110 when many profs second damage perk opens up, and there's a large selection of weapons which are easily equipable (CoH for example, nippy's, enforcer/keeper SL weaps, many AI weaps, perennium weaps, etc.)

I agree it isn't fast if you got a group of half afk nubs who are totally keen to have a big social gab session, but it certainly is possible to achieve a <10s/kill rate VERY easily even if you have a few members in your group who have a half decent weapon on and have the obvious add dmg/crit nanos to boost team DD.

If you have a crat... by all means NT+OST is probably better XP/hour, but in terms of fun, man, having a team raging through and killing so fast that the slow guys are sitting there waiting to IP RS so they can keep up because mobs keep dying before they can get to them is about as fun as it gets- not to mention at LEAST as competitive XP wise.

[Hide]

Just disable the abilitie to get xp once you reach xx level. So you have to travel to the next SL zone.

Nascence : 1 to 60
Ely : 60 to 120
Sheol : 120 to 140
Adonis : 140 to 160
Pen : 160 to 200
Inferno : 200 to 220

Fixed !