Open letter

[Pafpuf]

I'm not quoting anyone because I'm lazy atm.

Regarding wiping VP in the event that new items come out. I think there are better solutions than a wipe. Kinda stealing the concept from WoW but..

1. Existing VP (referring to it as VP1) stays as is. All current items in the ofab vendors are still buyable for vP1.
2. Create new cool items/huds/utils/whatever that are buyable only with a new battlestations currency. For reference purposes let's just call it VP2.
3. Create a vendor that will exchange VP2 for VP1 so that people that came in after VP2 started can still buy the old stuff.
4. Eventually (yearly or whenever) move the VP2 items over to the VP1 shop and create new VP2 items. This gives people a fresh incentive to do battlestations (or whatever activity is rewarding them with VP.. would include LE missions and those John Smith dailies).

Of course there are always better solutions and I definitely support the one you proposed, it's just that when making suggestions on this forum I take into consideration the capabilities (or lack of) the AO dev "team" has in which case anything other than the simplest of solutions aren't likely to happen. People panic when they see the word "wipe" even if it's wiping something at least 99.9% of the active playerbase doesn't even care about when they play this game. Or they make up lies for whatever selfish reason, like the anti-pvper claiming that he was "farming" his xp daily mission hoarded side-effect VP that he knows he has no use for other than buying a new character a piece of armor or very cheap VP nanos on very rare occasion. Nobody in this game farms more VP than they actually need, characters who have a lot stored have them as a side-effect of pvping or doing dailies. Massive XP and side-token rewards for literally being afk in the battlestation are already 100% absurd, keeping the VP to further reward players with who hoarded them with such terrible slacking mentality/gameplay (in case of what I was suggesting) would be even worse.

I always thought it was best if pvp-missions (John Smith is not actually a pvp-mission in practice) and pvm-missions was mutually exclusive so it is a choice for players, and not just a additional grind. Imo, you should be able to get ofab via pvm and likewise; get more pvm-stuff from vp-shop. Alternatively make pvm-missions for ofab. Lets say the LE-missions or Dreadlochboss-mission got locked to a mission that could be repated 3 times for a reward. FC should also fix/rework/delete broken systems like Tarasque and pvp-missions that doesn't work. The battlestation-mission is pretty much the only pvp-mission that works well.

Exactly. The problem is these dailies made leveling unbelievably easy and players suddenly think they're mandatory for their game play. They'll even go as far as to justify their existence even if it forces them to participate in content they hate. Making pvm and pvp dailies mutually exclusive is a good start in avoiding the stressful business of players being forced into despised activity only because the reward is something they can't ignore. BS pvp missions work well because they require absolutely no effort to complete; all you have to do is enter the battlestation and your mission is basically complete. Okay battlestation running more often is fine and dandy but people forget that it's a pvp designated area and a majority of characters who enter the battlestation aren't looking to pvp at all. In fact they throw accusations at people who do want worthwhile pvp content, I get idiots on this forum constantly branding me with titles such as lowbie farmer, gimp ganker etc. just because I advocate improvements for pvp regardless of the fact that they don't know anything about me and that I ganked at most 3 sub-220 characters in the past year outside of a pvp designated area. The state of the game is a reflection of that kind of prevalent mentality. Poor, decadent and broken.

Pafpuf if you were in a BS with a med suit guy against 4 endgame pvp toons who stick together, would you stay inside and get farmed until the end?

That's the most retarded question I've read in a while. If someone is level 215 and in a medsuit they should not look to pvp or simply uninstall this game if they didn't manage to improve their character's equipment for so long. These ridiculous scenario arguments are just that, ridiculous.

[Cratertina]

Miners should give awesome xp. Say 5000 sk at 220. Then watch drama unfold.

[Wakizaka]

Miners should give awesome xp. Say 5000 sk at 220. Then watch drama unfold.

Hardly, 2+ teams just organize to kill each other and take turns killing the miners that spawn because of deaths in the instance.
Will just turn into an easy SK farm zone.

[Psikie]

And you don't know what makes an activity enjoyable on a long term scale. That is rewards. No intelligent human on this planet willingly engages in repetitive activity if they're not somehow rewarded for it. It's very basic psychology.

Oh yes please give us more pvp areas void of any reward, sure sounds like fun.

You see here is where we have a drastic difference of opinion. I'll tell you why your whole "rewards" thing is short sighted and totally wrong IN THE LONG TERM.

Rewards as you keep advocating for lose there effect over time so that you have to keep handing out different or new rewards once players have had their fill. NO REWARDS will keep players going to BS. Look at the best example possible. Subway and ToTW, paid players go back in there because it is FUN to them. Nobody really needs to go to subway for yesdrop vagabond cloak or morphing memories. Is exarch robe/GTA/barrow strength really that important if you plan to lvl past 120 in a few days? Especially since a paid player can level beyond that content in like 2-3 days and get higher lvl stuff in Inner sanctum. Players that plan to lvl a toon to 150+ I will easily say...99.9% of them take every single toon into subway or totw, not for those lowbie rewards but because they are fun places to go.

GET IT NOW? Fun = people will do the content regularly. As a paid player and vet it is so much more efficient for me to dual log/pocket/slap on ai armor or ofab and lvl to 160 in 3 days and just totally skip subway, totw, and foremans. But I started a new toon last month that still isn't lvl 100 yet because I am just enjoying playing for several weeks in subway, then totw, and now foremans. I could easily just power level that toon to 160+ tonight if I wanted but I am having FUN in those lowbie dungeons. Im not even collecting all the loot or doing the elite dailies every day.

Yes I do have twinks and pvp just for fun.
But more importantly I want AO to grow and i want new people to actually have fun so they can stay.

At least someone gets it.

The area is what they ask for but its not popular cause there is not a lot of pvpers to actually be there.

Plus PVP is just not to popular in AO anyway.

Agreed because it's just not that fun. I have still yet to see anyone using the duel room on BS, it seems much more fun for them to hunt greenies on BS instead of facing other pvp players head on.

I even went so far as broadcasting in Clan ooc and Omni ooc for 30min last night to see if ANYONE would goto Tir or Omni arena for "real" pvp. ZERO responses. I even went to the Bor backyard hoping crowd and asked them. Again ZERO responses. So every time I hear the crap line about "real" pvp I know it's a smoke screen for just trying to get something for nothing. These requests are no different than if the GSP dancers came onto forums and started asking for rewards for their play time.

[Cyberleet]

Maybe not try to solo BS. Stay within the vicinity of your side or mech up it it's rough.

Plus PVP is just not to popular in AO anyway.

AO in itself is not so popular.

FC often fails with their designs themselfs tho, and then fail to follow up with a fix.

If someone is level 215 and in a medsuit they should not look to pvp or simply uninstall this game if they didn't manage to improve their character's equipment for so long. These ridiculous scenario arguments are just that, ridiculous.

Sad state of the game. Blame FC, not the players.

NO REWARDS will keep players going to BS.

Haha. It would be another 'will to fight'. Pvp in AO is still very fun once it happens.

Fun = people will do the content regularly.

As mentioned, playergaps ruins the fun for players. More phatz in vp-shop = better prices and more leetness for all. The '1st playthrough' of AO is very very broken and incohesive tho. Much to the game being several seperate expansions.

I am just enjoying playing for several weeks in subway, then totw, and now foremans.

Those dungeons are soloable by freeplayers. Where is the fun in that for paid twinks?

I have still yet to see anyone using the duel room on BS, it seems much more fun for them to hunt greenies on BS instead of facing other pvp players head on.

U and ur greenies j00 got gankz0red? btw, what if you play a profession that is not supposed to fight 'head on' but focus on stealth, sniping and subterfugeskills instead? Where should we go then?

[Pafpuf]

You see here is where we have a drastic difference of opinion. I'll tell you why your whole "rewards" thing is short sighted and totally wrong IN THE LONG TERM.

Uh-huh, just like people still do pande on a daily basis, killing the same mobs for the same items 10 years straight. Because rewarding is a bad idea IN THE LONG TERM. /facepalm

Look at the best example possible. Subway and ToTW, paid players go back in there because it is FUN to them. Nobody really needs to go to subway for yesdrop vagabond cloak or morphing memories. Is exarch robe/GTA/barrow strength really that important if you plan to lvl past 120 in a few days? Especially since a paid player can level beyond that content in like 2-3 days and get higher lvl stuff in Inner sanctum. Players that plan to lvl a toon to 150+ I will easily say...99.9% of them take every single toon into subway or totw, not for those lowbie rewards but because they are fun places to go.

GET IT NOW? Fun = people will do the content regularly.

Ahaha yes, great example. One in 100 players makes a lowbie twink for a nostalgic dungeon so they do one run to see how it goes and never log it back on until someone in their org needs help getting an item. /facepalm


Does anyone have a real argument?

[Psikie]

Ahaha yes, great example. One in 100 players makes a lowbie twink for a nostalgic dungeon so they do one run to see how it goes and never log it back on until someone in their org needs help getting an item. /facepalm

Does anyone have a real argument?

Uhm my post had nothing to do with making a nostalgic twink. Might want to re-read with eyes open next time.

What I said was that people, have taken 99.9% of ALL their toons into subway or totw not because of any "rewards" or very limited usage items but because they wanted to. There is nothing in totw that you need for end game, there fore the only reason to return in there on your new paid toons is because you like it. Because it's fun in some shape or fashion.

You can try to fuzzy logic and say elite dailies are reason enough to go, but the xp is much better in SL and if you re-read what I said I did specify PAID toons. So try to use your logic and reason people keep going there is because they like it, not for some low lvl reward that is obsolete within a few hours-days time.

Does anyone else need a reading comprehension guide? CliffsNotes maybe?

[Awikun]

Maybe not try to solo BS. Stay within the vicinity of your side or mech up it it's rough.

I always play solo on BS and I like it that way !
Zerging together and APTs/mechs is what ruin any pvp fun in BS.

All my characters are Neutral and 99% of the time I end up on the weaker side on BS.
Sometime I even dual or tripple log so BS can start.

I Play only 1 characters while the other froob stay/hide motionless. You would be surprised (OR RATHER NOT) how many and how often so called pvp'ers farm kills on this froob.
Whenever I see this kind of shameless behaviour I 4-cap or /afk those froob to stop that crap.

I can and will 4 cap whenever I see such behaviour.
Good fights on a ballanced BS is great fun and when it happens there is no 4 caping (because it is balanced!)
When there is no balance on BS 4 caping is the best cure to finish such round.

[Pafpuf]

What I said was that people, have taken 99.9% of ALL their toons into subway or totw not because of any "rewards" or very limited usage items but because they wanted to. There is nothing in totw that you need for end game, there fore the only reason to return in there on your new paid toons is because you like it. Because it's fun in some shape or fashion.

That's just a fictional number and you know it. Those very few who do have lowbie dungeon twinks made them to provide farming services. If anyone does go there for "fun" it's just nostalgia and it doesn't take more than one run to make that feeling completely go away. Like I said a dozen times already no repetitive activity is fun without some sort of reward at the end, very basic psychology.

You keep talking about "fun in some shape or fashion" clearly not knowing what you're talking about because you never have a good suggestion nor a clear definition of what makes a certain activity fun. On the other hand I've provided explanations on what creates "fun" in repetitive activity and I've provided suggestions on how to implement them in very simple ways that would benefit both the playerbase and funcom without hurting anyone. For any intelligent reader that's more than enough.

Since you're so religious in not believing anything I write on how to motivate people I suggest you pick up a book on basic psychology. Repetitive activity is not fun, ever, but motivation through rewards will make people want to participate anyway. Very few people on this planet will say their job is fun but all it takes to make them say that they like it is having a decent paycheck, aka reward. And don't try to insinuate that I lack reading comprehension when you're the one trying to undermine suggestions for positive changes with absurd arguments, your most recent one comparing shadowlands exp to dailies without taking into consideration factors like time and effort. When it comes to xp/sk, bs dailies are far ahead of anything else in this game in terms of time and required effort (<1 minute of active gameplay with absolutely no risk) vs highest exp reward in game (3x cap, although I heard they're even higher now). Ridiculous design to be honest.

[Ahndracorvid]

Ofab from pvm and pvm-stuff in vp-shop = win/win.

Wouldn't work. It would kill streetfighting-pvp wether one likes it or not.

Same when a side dominates core. The weaker side will run A B C instead of going core. It's how it is.

I... am having trouble understanding what your comments have to do with the quotes from me that you're commenting on. I wasn't suggesting changes to Battlestation or Bor PvP. I was pointing out how the miner area removes those issues and tried to express my frustration at it being underused.

Because I for one enjoyed it during the few days it was active after first being patched in.

[Cyberleet]

Ok. Yeah, streetfighting is not for all. In 17.8 they added some boss on a long timer in minerarea. This will probably end up like another pvm-pointfarm tho I betcha. FC and their fails... -_-

Uh-huh, just like people still do pande on a daily basis, killing the same mobs for the same items 10 years straight. Because rewarding is a bad idea IN THE LONG TERM. /facepalm

Multiboxers will do pvm-raids more and more and sell lootrights cheap. Making normal raids not viable. Less 'loot from corpse' and more 'talk to npc at end of pf' might be a fix. Would also make players less dependant on bots to do stuff normally.

I always play solo on BS and I like it that way !

You got twinks tho.

You would be surprised (OR RATHER NOT) how many and how often so called pvp'ers farm kills on this froob.

I think you should lower expecations when it comes to pvp'ers. Strategicly it sometimes makes sense to kill players at the spawnpoints if a player fights in the area. I also don't see the diference in a 220 farming dynas ado and a 220 killing afk-greenies if farming killpoints is the goal. At least the 220 is open to attack. That is what matters for a lot of us.

I can and will 4 cap whenever I see such behaviour.

tsk tsk, terrorist.

U cud make an org; awi's 4-capping liberation front

[edmaster3]

AO have 14 unique profession, unlike other games they dont fit perfectly into the 4 usually mmo roles. Depending on what you are doing the roles interchange and you can go beyond the limits of what they were designed for.
This is one reason why we love AO and also why pvp will almost be impossible to balanced.

Some of the Current problems with Pvp/ BS in ao
1. Some professions excel at pvp while others dont, even at different levels.
Its a problem because 2 vets with the same knowledge, one should not always be better than the other just because of profession choice.

2. Thanks to all the uncheck/ unregulated freedom some toons have god like abilities/gear even at low levels and others have Fully top gear which makes it almost impossible to compete with at any level.
Its a problem because the difference between a leveler, who is trying and gearing often, and them is to high.
It is heart breaking to watch twinks chase down people who constantly run from them, knowing that they can barely even scratch them. Not talking about med suit guys.

3. There is nothing AO can do to balance out the pvp system unless they make the professions more generic and remove a lot of the uniqueness. There is nothing they can do about the thousands of god like toons already made, you cant regulate who joins bs.


To those who say the people getting farmed need to get a lot of creds first, get geared up, learn a lot about ao, probably get some ai armour first then try to pvp. I say to you.
There is no one in there right mind who is going to join AO knowing that they need to wait at least 3 months before they can even try to enjoy the pvp system.
When people join a mmo they look up how the pvp system is in that game, AO already dont offer a lot now to warrant them trying it. Chasing newbs out is just stupid.

Solution maybe create a new type of bs system. Or get so much new people so that it saturates the vets with op toons that will log to farm them.

[Psikie]

That's just a fictional number and you know it. Those very few who do have lowbie dungeon twinks made them to provide farming services. If anyone does go there for "fun" it's just nostalgia and it doesn't take more than one run to make that feeling completely go away. Like I said a dozen times already no repetitive activity is fun without some sort of reward at the end, very basic psychology.

You keep talking about "fun in some shape or fashion" clearly not knowing what you're talking about because you never have a good suggestion nor a clear definition of what makes a certain activity fun.

So are you saying you have not taken more than 1 toon through subway or totw?

Because I am clearly saying that anyone who goes through those dungeons, with a paid account, with intent to lvl beyond 120 (to get into IS) more than once is NOT DOING IT FOR A REWARD.

Fun is like beauty it's different for everyone. I think basketball is fun others might not think running up a down a court all day is fun.

[Pafpuf]

So are you saying you have not taken more than 1 toon through subway or totw?

Only when I had to. They were effective leveling dungeons because they had a lot of space, lots of mobs that scaled in level as you progressed and items that could improve a leveling character. I went there because rewards motivated me to. Not even once have I set foot in those places "just for fun" whatever the hell even means... sounds like I'm supposed to take pleasure it aimlessly killing npcs, or exploring a place that I already know by heart... or what?

Because I am clearly saying that anyone who goes through those dungeons, with a paid account, with intent to lvl beyond 120 (to get into IS) more than once is NOT DOING IT FOR A REWARD.

They do it for experience and/or items and both are rewards.

Fun is like beauty it's different for everyone. I think basketball is fun others might not think running up a down a court all day is fun.

Indeed. Some like mainstream sports where people play for money and fame and the only amusing part is the short highlight compilation at the end of the borefest. Others prefer extreme sports where people preform mind-blowing feats that break the boundaries of what we thought was humanly possible, both mentally and physically. Passing the ball, shooting hoops and running up and down a court for 60 minutes isn't really groundbreaking, it's more like going in circles until time runs out. Unsurprisingly it suits your personality perfectly

[Traderjill]

Because I am clearly saying that anyone who goes through those dungeons, with a paid account, with intent to lvl beyond 120 (to get into IS) more than once is NOT DOING IT FOR A REWARD.

I don't go into totw for nostaligia or because it is fun.. it isn't fun to be honest except that I get a pretty awesome amount of xp from completing the elite daily at that level range. It is the same reason why I also go into subway (elite daily reward) and smuggler's den (elite daily reward). If those elite dailies didn't exist I wouldn't go into smuggler's or subway at all and I would only run into totw, loot the shoulders and never go back.

Speaking of totw shoulders versus IS shoulders. I personally like to keep my toons up to date as I level so the concept that I just skip getting gear because an upgrade exists in a higher level dungeon is pretty crazy for me. That mentality, however, is pretty common in games these days and that is why a lot of people don't bother to upgrade their nanos.

Anyway, you might want to re-evaluate your conclusion regarding totw as I know for a fact that it doesn't represent the way I play or even most of the people that I play with on a day to day basis.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I don't go into totw for nostaligia or because it is fun.. it isn't fun to be honest except that I get a pretty awesome amount of xp from completing the elite daily at that level range. It is the same reason why I also go into subway (elite daily reward) and smuggler's den (elite daily reward). If those elite dailies didn't exist I wouldn't go into smuggler's or subway at all and I would only run into totw, loot the shoulders and never go back.

Speaking of totw shoulders versus IS shoulders. I personally like to keep my toons up to date as I level so the concept that I just skip getting gear because an upgrade exists in a higher level dungeon is pretty crazy for me. That mentality, however, is pretty common in games these days and that is why a lot of people don't bother to upgrade their nanos.

Anyway, you might want to re-evaluate your conclusion regarding totw as I know for a fact that it doesn't represent the way I play or even most of the people that I play with on a day to day basis.

I completely agree.

I am highly principled in my method of play: Be the best teammate you possibly can be (within reason) at whatever level you're at.

And that means making sure your gear/AXP/research/nanos/etc. is up to date (within reason).

If you play "kite me plox" style, I agree it doesn't matter, but if you actually PLAY the game... it matters massively.

[Psikie]

FINALLY some meat and potatoes to eat...

I went there because rewards motivated me to. Not even once have I set foot in those places "just for fun" whatever the hell even means...

Never for fun you say...so exactly how and why did you get into pvp, since by your own words there are no rewards? You didn't do it because it was fun to you did you? Which leads back to earlier you want something for nothing, you already think pvp is fun enough to do without rewards but now you want a cherry on top.

Passing the ball, shooting hoops and running up and down a court for 60 minutes isn't really groundbreaking, it's more like going in circles until time runs out. Unsurprisingly it suits your personality perfectly

Interesting enough I do like to go outside and be around real people. Not sitting in a dark room with curtains drawn to prevent screen glare chatting with a bunch of virtual people. All the while sitting in the same chair that no dog would want to sniff. O SNAP

I don't go into totw for nostaligia or because it is fun.. it isn't fun to be honest except that I get a pretty awesome amount of xp from completing the elite daily at that level range.

Speaking of totw shoulders versus IS shoulders. I personally like to keep my toons up to date as I level so the concept that I just skip getting gear because an upgrade exists in a higher level dungeon is pretty crazy for me.

Anyway, you might want to re-evaluate your conclusion regarding totw as I know for a fact that it doesn't represent the way I play or even most of the people that I play with on a day to day basis.

I completely agree.

Now for these 2 high horse posts, maybe I wasn't very clear in my posts with regards to whom I am making references to. If you are really trying to say subway and totw is the most effective ways for you to lvl when compared to a SL team then you are not being honest. The few diminishing return lvls you can get for that elite daily does not equal the lvls you can gain in a standard SL team over the course of time. Now again my post clearly states players go there because THEY WANTED TO. There is no serious item reward from subway and paid players can EASILY out pace the elite daily reward in SL even solo.

So a paid player that goes into subway is making a choice to take less xp in the subway than go to SL. Subconsciously or overtly they must like the subway option for some reason other than taking less xp. Maybe killing the same subway mobs is less boring than killing the same SL mobs? Maybe it's a lot easier to take less xp in subway rather than run out to SL with a few backpacks of nanos, portable surgery clinic, imps, armor, and weapons to equip on the fly? (I know how to use ALL my resources when I "play" my toon)

As far as items and gear... seriously you are giving a holier than though speech about totw items? Really? Nothing to do with kite teams, but I know usually I get everything I could use from totw pretty much first time I step inside at 25. I only go back because I like it, because I can get better xp in SL. There is no lvl period that the elite daily for subway or totw is better than teaming or solo dungeons in SL time vs xp reward.

So you can say you are going to totw for daily reward all you want, but considering for a PAID VET player you can easily get much more xp in SL. Your posts are for arguments sake alone. Again if you want to try and preach "playing your toon" there must be something you like about playing your toon in subway/totw. Otherwise you would just dual log powerlvl yourself and be done with it.

[Traderjill]

Wow Psikie, are you for real or is this another case where YOU are the one actually arguing for arguing sakes (as you've said you do in the past)?

[Psikie]

Wow Psikie, are you for real or is this another case where YOU are the one actually arguing for arguing sakes (as you've said you do in the past)?

Suppose it depends on your perspective lol.

[Pafpuf]

From my perspective it looks like you keep skipping all my questions directed to you and every statement where I proved you wrong, just to pick out partial sentences that you think you can somehow argue with nonsense only because you're afraid of admitting that you're wrong. There's no shame in admitting you're wrong but by keeping this nonsense up you're profoundly embarrassing yourself. Especially with such childish implications that I sit around in a dark room all day only because we have a difference of opinion. Grow up man.