MP DPM capability and "best" setups

[Cratertina]

300k dpm on single target, without running around, downtimes, .... So just pure DD all the time. I know you are shocked, but its all about how you measure it.

Overtime with running around, that 300k easilly falls to 200k dpm on average...

I think you are confusing output in "perfect circumstances" with actual gameplay where that DD is easily 200k.

But because slacking, pet pathing and waiting for mobs is impossible to predict we look at perfect conditions like inf heck or damage bags.

And there 300k is medium damage, 200k is low and 400k is high. Just because MA only does 300kish, that does not mean, that is now high damage.

[Rockdizzle]

300k DPM is indeed medium for the reason that half of the profs can hit it while profs like Fixer/Doctor not known for their DD can also hit 300k+ by using Dots and AOE items+skill lock on multiple mobs, some profs can also push past 350k,400k and even 450k+ if stuff like low AC mobs and lots of mobs are available.
The only profs that wont be hitting 300k are Advy?(not sure)/Trader/Keep?(never tested) and Doc/Fixer/Enfo when only 1-2 mobs are around.

Recent changes and changes to come later have only increased dmg to the point where 300k is no longer hard/impossible besides for a select few, some items not commonly used like Wen-Wen/Grenades/Apple Special Arrows(bow setup)/Sharp Objects can further increase DPM with decent add dmg especially in places like IPande/APFs.
*Nearly beat a 220 tonfa MA in sector 28 when my bow Agent in FP Advy was 200, only lost by 50k damage at the end when mainly in lizard morph and using the 4 items I listed.*

400k+ DPM is indeed absurd for places like Beast/12man where you only have hard hitting mobs with high AR and HP, my Agent which hits 330-350k DPM atm takes agg no prob so I always warn the Enf tank to spam IMalice when at those 2 instances.
I also still plan to go PDKP on my Agent at some point for that 500k+ DPM potential but I don't plan to fight for agg from Enfs on bosses thus I'll mainly be pushing DD on adds which is fine and pretty important.


The 1 thing in favor of MPs when going full DD is that dmg is split between Rhiwen and the MP so a 400k DPM run means the MP is pushing around 250k ish DPM which even a sold can hold agg off. Same is said for Engi/Crat while NTs and Agents are kinda screwed for the most part with only detaunts sorta helping them.

[Metafly7]

Cool that you guys figured out how much damage we can actually do. I probably will never try to even reach that high damage but its good to see what is possible

End result however remains that damage on Mp is mediocre at best, which remains sad. More damage in the form of the previously shown nukes in documents and some weapon specific alterations would be very cool. Unless they have a better way for us to be valuable in teams. Because DpM will still not get us in teams, only the lack of players around will.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

300k DPM is indeed medium for the reason that half of the profs can hit it while profs like Fixer/Doctor not known for their DD can also hit 300k+ by using Dots

pff

you're out of your mind.

Show me a log of a doctor doing 300k DPM in any kind of situation that isn't a controlled test.

The only place I can think of that it might be even remotely close to being able to do that is on a S35 fail. sure, spam dots on the 9000 mobs. see if that wins you a VLRD.

Doc's can do 200k on a good day if there's backup heals.

Your numbers are complete and utter garbage. you spend way too much time on test.

What you should do is on any give PUG run a dumper and see what kind of numbers you get... and I'm not saying don't push your own damage... you should! but don't tell people that you're going to try for the new land speed record, just do it. Then see what happens. If you hit 450k DPM and don't die because the enf wasn't ready for such an insane onslaught of secondary taunt, and the doc was looking at the enf HP and not the funky shade in T2... then great! but if you DO die, I want you to keep the parser running, because that's what your ACTUAL damage is.

Same with this mythical 300k dpm doctor. If the tank doesn't die, great. but if he does die I want you to keep the parser running for the whole time the raid is failing/half complete on members, because the only thing that DPS is ACTUALLY good for, is completing something faster. So, if you hit 450k DPM but take 1.5x longer to complete the content... in all honesty, that's a total fail setup.

[Rockdizzle]

Fixer/Doctor not known for their DD can also hit 300k+ by using Dots and AOE items+skill lock on "multiple mobs".

I'll just repost this so you can reread since I wasn't trying to bull**** anyone, hell I even state 2 lines down that docs/fixers/enfs don't hit 300k on 1-2 mobs.

*edit My total time on test in the last 3 weeks or so has been around 10-15 minutes mainly from looking at patch changes.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Fine.

I apologize for my comment about you spending too much time on test. It was out of place.

But, I'm still calling utter bullsh*t on doctors doing 300k in any kind of real content.

[Rockdizzle]

NP, when I go out of my way to make stuff on test for testing and what not I do try and get in tests on real mobs and the occasional raid formed by Belaroth just so I'm not just throwing out useless numbers.
Mostly how I came to the conclusion that the dmg on pistol/PDKP Agent is legit but dangerous, for raids like DB2(db1 is easy)/ 12Man/ Alb/ Beast/ Sec42 Gens+AC I will be holding back for sure no argument but the DD is amazing for Adds/City raids/Inf mishs(lol)/other instances so I don't mind having absurd DD if I can still make use of it in places.


I'm not too sure what you consider "real combat" but if it is just any raid/team content in general than yes Docs do have times when they could hit high dmg, it often means you are using up nano and healing less tho which I'm not suggesting anyone do just to be clear.
In places where a doc can't dot more than 2 mobs they won't hit 300k ever I'm certain that I was fairly clear on that, what I've brought up twice now(once in a quote) is when a doc can dot 4+ mobs(Sophisticated Viral Agent+Bone Eater mostly) that they get that 300k+ dpm. Its not practical as a Doc should be healing but my intent was never to explain profs doing 300k+ dpm viably but just to say that 300k DPM is nothing special anymore and shouldn't be seen as high or top tier DD anymore.

Just for reference
Sophisticated Viral Agent = 31k DPM when kept up
Bone Eater = 26.7k DPM when kept up
Dot C is pretty weak tbh so it's kind of a waste to cast if going for DD.

Both Dot A and B on 3 mobs(not a lot for just 2 dots) you are looking at about 165-170k DPM if error/first casts is calced (173k otherwise), 140k weapon/perk dmg is a fair bit for doc but its far from impossible to do more with team support (RC+add dmg).

[McKnuckleSamwich]

In my best runs ever on doc (in 18.6) I was hitting 170k DPM with awakening and OSB's.

without OSB's I'd be lucky if I was hitting 140k

Yes, the dots do decent damage but you're talking about really, REALLY specific situations. And I'll tell you right now that it's not a good thing being the DPS and doctor, why? because you VERY quickly become the Tank, DPS and doctor. And I'll tell you from my own experience, (my doctor is the only toon I play in PVM with any kind of intent in the last two years) that as soon as you start focussing on doing damage as doctor that things spiral out of control rapidly.

I do DB2 somewhat regularly - say, 20x per year and I've done DB2 more than anything else. I've solo two boxed it with doc+keeper, and with keeper+crat (in 18.6) so I'm fairly confident doing the content.

Now, when I play my doctor, I feel pretty good, and I don't like slacking off, so I generally push as much damage as I can - not because epeen, just because I simply can't be bothered to do something if I can't make it remotely challenging, so generally I'll try to push damage because that's at least something interesting to do while babysitting/healing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying my damage is first class, or any such garbage. My setup is NOT for max damage. I wear Ofab sleeves+hat, jathos chest+pants, and DB gloves/boots. The only things I've got that are remotely "damagey" are ERBP and +75 dmg on either wrist. I got an ACDC and I'll wear purple hud 3 generally.

We're talking about burst not being capped, no epic AR or insane damage setup, hell, I even only have RH/LH pistols. I fight at full agg - I like the inits.

I'll pull aggro off 80% of soldiers unless I deliberately slack off. So I get it, doctors can do damage. But what I'm saying is that given that your toolset already lends itself to generating pretty heavy aggro, you really don't need to try to get aggro with damage to put the raid success into WTF mode.

I'll say it right now: doc's don't want aggro.

If I'm on my doc, and I get agg on aune... it's a 60-70% fail. Sure, I'm good, but even with 30% reflects and ward, when you get evade debuffed and stunned... 10k hits make mincemeat of your 30kish HP rapidly.

So, sure, if you got an enf who can handle aggro, if you let the non-enf tank generate agg for a while before diving in, sure. Docs can push the envelope and try to get content finished faster. But in all honesty, I'm more than happy to let the DPS be DPS and tanks be tanks.

[Cratertina]

So yes... Lowest DD are keeper, advy, doc, fixer...

MP, is medicore... But way better than ever before. Mp is satisfactory. Lets be real, any extra DD will pop argo to you and then MP cannot survive it.

MP is now a poor crat without init debuffs. Could do with 100% nanodamage for 30 seconds proc.

Doc having 300k is mute... NT can do 10k AoE against 100mobs for 1M damage too, but does not mean it happens. I wiped many a raid damage whoring doc. At around 4 dots + malpractice, you grab argo and hold it... Unless enfo tanks, then chances are you need to heal.

Special attacks and items, like alb arrows, hardly count as everyday DD potential. Sure, dd is better when you have full towers, all buffs, and extra spec items.

For me now MP plays OK, i never feel like I have low damage, maybe if T3 pet was way better thatd be nice.

Next damage issue must be NT and Keeper. Keeper especially is pathetic DD. And Nt nowhere near what it should be.

[Rockdizzle]

@Cratertina: I would look at Apple arrows with add dmg,they have a 5m AOE, 30 sec recharge and dirt cheap price when you craft ql 1-15s(like 9 creds per arrow at ql10).
Not amazing but the best you got considering Alb arrows are pvp only unless the player check is broken ofc.


@McKnuckleSamwich: Pretty much a common problem atm, Current Tank profs just don't cut it anymore. Enf works if you are fine with DD profs not doing decent(slacking and/or meh setup) DD but that doesn't really sit well with me.

Shades/Agents/NTs will pull/keep agg from everything that's not called an Enforcer and if they bother to push DD in a mixed/full dmg setup the Enforcer will have to spam IMalice the whole time and could still lose agg.

Advy tank is pretty rare if not non-existent when considering places like Beast/12Man/Alb/APFs(gimpy AOE taunt) etc and would struggle to hold agg off even an average MA which is sad considering Advy lizard morph was meant to make them a secondary tank like Sold/Enf.
Advys lost their niche in Collector and most maybe even all Advys I know basically refuse to tank content on there Advy over their Sold/Shade/MA/Enf.

MAs with taunts can hold agg off most profs but a half decent shade with back stabs will pull agg at some point and most people accept Shades as the better evade tank anyways. I guess the silver lining is that if you don't have any other DD profs in the raid/team that the MA will at least be putting in work compared to say a Enf.


Maybe it would worthwhile for me to make a thread somewhere else about increasing Taunting for the 3 tanking profs Sold/Enf/Advy tho I'm sure it would come with some backlash from those possibly against it or lack of support tho both are pretty common heh.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@Cratertina: I would look at Apple arrows with add dmg,they have a 5m AOE, 30 sec recharge and dirt cheap price when you craft ql 1-15s(like 9 creds per arrow at ql10).
Not amazing but the best you got considering Alb arrows are pvp only unless the player check is broken ofc.


@McKnuckleSamwich: Pretty much a common problem atm, Current Tank profs just don't cut it anymore. Enf works if you are fine with DD profs not doing decent(slacking and/or meh setup) DD but that doesn't really sit well with me.

Shades/Agents/NTs will pull/keep agg from everything that's not called an Enforcer and if they bother to push DD in a mixed/full dmg setup the Enforcer will have to spam IMalice the whole time and could still lose agg.

Advy tank is pretty rare if not non-existent when considering places like Beast/12Man/Alb/APFs(gimpy AOE taunt) etc and would struggle to hold agg off even an average MA which is sad considering Advy lizard morph was meant to make them a secondary tank like Sold/Enf.
Advys lost their niche in Collector and most maybe even all Advys I know basically refuse to tank content on there Advy over their Sold/Shade/MA/Enf.

MAs with taunts can hold agg off most profs but a half decent shade with back stabs will pull agg at some point and most people accept Shades as the better evade tank anyways. I guess the silver lining is that if you don't have any other DD profs in the raid/team that the MA will at least be putting in work compared to say a Enf.


Maybe it would worthwhile for me to make a thread somewhere else about increasing Taunting for the 3 tanking profs Sold/Enf/Advy tho I'm sure it would come with some backlash from those possibly against it or lack of support tho both are pretty common heh.

I've always held that it would have made way more sense to make advy the 2nd heal prof and MA the second tank prof /tank stance.

It kinda blows my mind that Genele mixed that up. MA as a tank is very reasonable with the only thing lacking being bigger HP to soak more hits, but then they got zazen and advy got pitlizard and it was a seriously epic proportions fail.

I mean, sure we'll make use of what we've got.. but a high HP MA using a gank setup (max HP/max AR+add dmg) makes sense, it's same as an agent in FP enf: big HP, big AR fail ythe gank and go to reclaim to bleed out.

Zazen MA is interesting, but it would have made way more sense to go with a high HP MA secondary tank... we got the taunts already as well so what gives? maybe it's the damage shields.

[Cratertina]

Thatd be nice, a MA tank, with gusto.

All profs with poor DD should be great tanks... Maybe give MA -20 crit +20k hp stance... Call it rockhard stance.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Thatd be nice, a MA tank, with gusto.

All profs with poor DD should be great tanks... Maybe give MA -20 crit +20k hp stance... Call it rockhard stance.

*drools*