Shotgun vs MA, the problems and the power. (PvM)

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Those DPM numbers for MA trader are lower than expected.

Talk to trenchbroom on Tradeofblows. I've done some activities with him where he's punching well above his weight class on DPM.

[Ciex]

My dd went up from around 130k dpm with greet to around 180k dpm with tonfas after reset on same lvl vs inferno mobs. Remember me and Raggy play leveling characters and our setups are kinda bad and we dont have db nanos yet although 300 k dpm with shotgun sounds really good.

[sannz]

Ah missed that. Sure here!

I had to skim it off the top of my head as I can't get ingame right now. Also my Testlive char is as close to my live one as possible to make sure the comparisons are as accurate as possible.

And there we have it, looks like there is around 30% less crit chance in your setup than the one Traderjill is using. Add the lower dmg of Shen Sticks compared to Tonfas and things should be a lot clearer.

[Raggy]

And there we have it, looks like there is around 30% less crit chance in your setup than the one Traderjill is using. Add the lower dmg of Shen Sticks compared to Tonfas and things should be a lot clearer.

Yup! Like I said, I'm still a long way away from being finished! Also, Tonfas and Shen sticks have the same damage, the only difference is that Tonfas have FA.

[sannz]

... the only difference is that Tonfas have FA.

exactly. And FastAttack can crit and launch procs, thus increasing dmg further

[Traderjill]

I left an offline for tradeofblows (assuming he still plays) because I'd really like to see endgame shotgun vs endgame MA trader numbers. Comparing a darn near endgame trader (mine still needs a couple items) to a leveling toon is pretty pointless for a real discussion.

I very well think its probable that MA damage at endgame is higher than shotgun but I'd like to know to what extent: 10k vs 50k vs 75k dpm? higher in some situations, less in others (and which)? title level differences?

I mean if we're going to ask for improvements/changes we really should know to what extent anything needs to be adjusted and be able to understand the impacts at various stages of toon development as well.

I mean to be frank, I wouldn't be overly concerned if a shotgun trader and MA trader's numbers were within 20k of another. If the difference is much higher then it might be worth looking into all depending on what trade-offs are involved with each setup. Someone mentioned earlier, as a shotgun trader I can still pretty much tradeskill everything in game. Is a MA trader able to do this as well? Without looking at a legit endgame MA setup, I also don't know what sacrifices (if any) a MA trader has to make to do increased damage.

Going to scour the forums and see if I can dig up any old MA vs shotgun threads. This can't possibly be the first time its come up.

[Raggy]

I left an offline for tradeofblows (assuming he still plays) because I'd really like to see endgame shotgun vs endgame MA trader numbers. Comparing a darn near endgame trader (mine still needs a couple items) to a leveling toon is pretty pointless for a real discussion.

I very well think its probable that MA damage at endgame is higher than shotgun but I'd like to know to what extent: 10k vs 50k vs 75k dpm? higher in some situations, less in others (and which)? title level differences?

I mean if we're going to ask for improvements/changes we really should know to what extent anything needs to be adjusted and be able to understand the impacts at various stages of toon development as well.

I mean to be frank, I wouldn't be overly concerned if a shotgun trader and MA trader's numbers were within 20k of another. If the difference is much higher then it might be worth looking into all depending on what trade-offs are involved with each setup. Someone mentioned earlier, as a shotgun trader I can still pretty much tradeskill everything in game. Is a MA trader able to do this as well? Without looking at a legit endgame MA setup, I also don't know what sacrifices (if any) a MA trader has to make to do increased damage.

Going to scour the forums and see if I can dig up any old MA vs shotgun threads. This can't possibly be the first time its come up.

I can just about max ME for cutting gems on my Trader, simply because we have to use MA/MM/Brawl and FA, all of which are dark blue for IP.

As for the DPM gap between MA and Shotgun, it's going to be rather significant simply because we're (theoretically) getting 3x the accumulator procs and 3x the crits.

[Traderjill]

I can just about max ME for cutting gems on my Trader, simply because we have to use MA/MM/Brawl and FA, all of which are dark blue for IP.

As for the DPM gap between MA and Shotgun, it's going to be rather significant simply because we're (theoretically) getting 3x the accumulator procs and 3x the crits.

So you're saying you pretty much aren't able to tradeskill, right? That is what I would consider to be an unacceptable trade-off for extra damage. It sorta comes down to why people roll certain professions. From my own vantage point: If I wanted to play a DD melee toon I'd log to my 220 shade or even my 220 MA which is going to do it better than my 220 Trader.

Some of the things that I like about traders is that they can tradeskill, get bonuses when selling to shops/discounts when buying, ranged with crowd control, have nice debuffs and support heals. I can't imagine anyone rolling a trader because they wanted to be top DD no more than someone rolling a doctor or enforcer for the same reason. I'm not saying you can't strive to top out your damage (in any profession) but traders are so much more than the damage they can directly inflict on their opponent.

I'd rather see enhancements to Traders that make our unique combination of skills really shine rather than just get some DD increases. This means reviewing our drains (think 18.7 did a bit for that, though the duration on the mobs needs to be tweaked), AC debuffs, mezzes (Genele responded to one of my forum posts and stated she'd remove the nerf to our non-SL mezzes so they'd work in SL.. hoping Michi makes good on that), changes to our heals (believe there's some tweaks in the nano docs) and a review of our perklines.

If our toolset works well people will want us in teams not just for damage but because of the awesome support we provide. Just like most people can't think of doing a raid without a crat or a doc, there are aspects of the Trader toolset that, if tweaked properly, can easily become things that people would rather not leave home without

[Raggy]

So you're saying you pretty much aren't able to tradeskill, right? That is what I would consider to be an unacceptable trade-off for extra damage. It sorta comes down to why people roll certain professions. From my own vantage point: If I wanted to play a DD melee toon I'd log to my 220 shade or even my 220 MA which is going to do it better than my 220 Trader.

Some of the things that I like about traders is that they can tradeskill, get bonuses when selling to shops/discounts when buying, ranged with crowd control, have nice debuffs and support heals. I can't imagine anyone rolling a trader because they wanted to be top DD no more than someone rolling a doctor or enforcer for the same reason. I'm not saying you can't strive to top out your damage (in any profession) but traders are so much more than the damage they can directly inflict on their opponent.

Whereas I find Tradeskills largely irrelevant since my Engineer is one, so I much prefer to cement my team viability by talking in a language most people understand - Pure damage output.

I'd rather see enhancements to Traders that make our unique combination of skills really shine rather than just get some DD increases. This means reviewing our drains (think 18.7 did a bit for that, though the duration on the mobs needs to be tweaked), AC debuffs, mezzes (Genele responded to one of my forum posts and stated she'd remove the nerf to our non-SL mezzes so they'd work in SL.. hoping Michi makes good on that), changes to our heals (believe there's some tweaks in the nano docs) and a review of our perklines.

Agree with all of this and more. I liked the 18.7 drains, minus the silly duration. I just hope we can get AC drains brought into a similar situation. Healing, I think we're already in a good place with tbh. Mezzes, don't have any issues with either (aside from the problems you posted about elsewhere). Perklines, I'm not too sure about. I LOVE Accumulator, it's fantastic, the whole MA build pretty much revolves around it. The others... eh, they are nothing to write home about but they certainly arn't bad.

Personally, the reason why I made this thread, I think Shotguns are lacking. That might just be me, but I think they fall into the same rut that Grenade, ME, RE and to some extent, Rifle & Bow suffer from. What they do, is done better by others. Maybe a review to the perkline that allows Shotguns to take on an more AoE role, similar to what you suggested earlier that could basically 'toggle' our ability to AoE with our weapon. Sort of in the same vein as LE Perks.

Solid Slugs - The Shotgun user swaps to solid slug ammunition allowing the weapon to deal significant damage to a single target. (Essentially what happens now).
Scattershot - The Shotgun user swaps to scattershot ammunition allowing the weapon to hit multiple targets for a lower amount of damage.

This would break open the problem of Shotguns being glorified pistols.

[Traderjill]

Whereas I find Tradeskills largely irrelevant since my Engineer is one, so I much prefer to cement my team viability by talking in a language most people understand - Pure damage output.

And my engie is pure pvp so yeah, I get you there.. same thoughts, opposite toons.

Maybe a review to the perkline that allows Shotguns to take on an more AoE role, similar to what you suggested earlier that could basically 'toggle' our ability to AoE with our weapon. Sort of in the same vein as LE Perks.

Solid Slugs - The Shotgun user swaps to solid slug ammunition allowing the weapon to deal significant damage to a single target. (Essentially what happens now).
Scattershot - The Shotgun user swaps to scattershot ammunition allowing the weapon to hit multiple targets for a lower amount of damage.

This would break open the problem of Shotguns being glorified pistols.

Yep, that was the point I was making, something simple that would make a significant different. I strongly feel that shotguns should function like a freaking shotgun I like this enhancement to scattershot idea I posted earlier. Toggling from single target to AOE would be great.

For what its worth, I really enjoy these dialogues we've had on the forums. Nice healthy discussions.

[Raggy]

And my engie is pure pvp so yeah, I get you there.. same thoughts, opposite toons.



Yep, that was the point I was making, something simple that would make a significant different. I strongly feel that shotguns should function like a freaking shotgun I like this enhancement to scattershot idea I posted earlier. Toggling from single target to AOE would be great.

For what its worth, I really enjoy these dialogues we've had on the forums. Nice healthy discussions.

Same! I think it's a good idea to get these ideas out into the open since now we have a GD who is actively looking at, reading and implementing community suggestions. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about making Shotguns a bit more interesting though

[McKnuckleSamwich]

raggy why don't you make your trader your TS toon and your engi your DD toon?

Not to poke fun, but you're taking equal capability TSers, and assigning a DD roll to the poorer choice between the two.

A reasonably built engi will dish damage at 100k/minute better than a perfectly built trader.

[Raggy]

raggy why don't you make your trader your TS toon and your engi your DD toon?

Not to poke fun, but you're taking equal capability TSers, and assigning a DD roll to the poorer choice between the two.

A reasonably built engi will dish damage at 100k/minute better than a perfectly built trader.

You misunderstand what I meant when I said I wanted to focus on pure damage. What I meant is that I wanted to bring competitive DPM whilst retaining the unique playstyle and team capabilities of a Trader.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ya, there's no question that a trader brings some solid team capabilities and a different toolset entirely than an engineer. For me the only advantages are Mezz, NR debuffing and AR/Skill whereas an engineer brings probably the best single prof capability to overall damage mitigation to a team so it's hard for me to not see that as a defining characteristic of engies, the damage is high as well but not the defining characteristic.

[Mountaingoat]

I really want an MA trader. Unfortunately I'd rather pvp with my trader which means shotgun. I am very curious as to the maximum damage potential of an endgame MA trader. If I had the fortitude and the game was in a better place (more people, pickup leveling teams) I would level another one. I also need to level another engi for tradeskills so mine can go full pvp. I also need another engi for Dshark setup, and one more for MA engi setup. I need four engi's and two traders... I will be monitoring this thread and living vicariously through the MA traders here though.

[Ciex]

raggy why don't you make your trader your TS toon and your engi your DD toon?

Not to poke fun, but you're taking equal capability TSers, and assigning a DD roll to the poorer choice between the two.

A reasonably built engi will dish damage at 100k/minute better than a perfectly built trader.

It may have something to do with fact that there is a legion of pvm engis and like 1 pvm trader on entire server so its still possible to be famous People dont even know what can those traders do. I get inspects followed by "WTF???" all the time, its fun. I also got kicked from inf team once for noobishness because i was asked for mop and said i dont have it

Remember that 16.7 patch will be introduced sooner or later and it brings crit decrease debuffs for traders. It means that entire raidforce will do way more dmg. During raids like pande a single trader will bring way more dmg than 2 engis.

[sannz]

[.....] During raids like pande a single trader will bring way more dmg than 2 engis.

Sorry, I don't quite see that happening. People would simply slack a bit harder - after all, noone is kicking them yet, and with the drains it'll be even easier to slack even more. It really is an art form

At least that's what I guess will happen on the public bots. For the private raids you are right. Dmg will increase and Traders will be wanted. Hell, Engi and Crat dmg will go crazy. Add in a shade with SP perked and.... *faints*

[Raggy]

Sorry, I don't quite see that happening. People would simply slack a bit harder - after all, noone is kicking them yet, and with the drains it'll be even easier to slack even more. It really is an art form

At least that's what I guess will happen on the public bots. For the private raids you are right. Dmg will increase and Traders will be wanted. Hell, Engi and Crat dmg will go crazy. Add in a shade with SP perked and.... *faints*

I especially enjoy popping Sacrifice before a pull because I just know that everyone is going to be scratching their heads wondering why suddenly all the damage they do is increased by 1.3k