CCP making changes to EULA and multi boxing rules.

[Freor]

That said, I currently don't do towers but I stay informed. You can do that, you know? Would be nice if you had answered the remaining part of that sentence, where I talked about the recent clan rush and how multiboxing may have affected it (or not).

You have to ask that from someone who was there. From what I know, there was a small spike in tl5 tower activity in recent weeks as at least some of the boxer(s) werent around. Think that MB holiday is over now.

You clearly ignore ALL the lead designers and programmers' insight on the subject, which is greater than yours. No question.
You also ignore the only insight into population statistics we're ever truly had (Nusquam's post stating its steady decline).
All to suit your point of view, which makes your point much weaker.

I'm not ignoring their view. Macrosun is now gone and new people in charge/team have a chance to do different things. It's just a matter of them realizing how devastating boxing is for the game and it's population. If there's will, there's a way.

Nusquam never gave any numbers. If he meant subscribers, steady decline is possible, at least when you look over long enough time frame. The data I posted shows average weekly active population, where things like boxing killing pvp shows far faster than in paid accs - I had half a year left on my accs when I cancelled them. I also have every reason to belive the data I've seen for a number of years now is very much real. You as well can choose to ignore it and pretend it's fake when it doesn't suit your views, but that doesn't make it any less true nor AO any more populated and active. As Unidentified posted above... all you have to do is open your eyes to see the population decline. And the drop earlier this year was very easy to see.

It's entirely feasible to kill one person controlling 5-6 toons.. if you have at least 4 toons that know anything about what they're doing in pvp.

I guess it's best for me to stop reading here. If you think it's fair and good for the game/pvp that I need to bring 4 real people to kill one single boxer who has the mindset of just harassing people all day long, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. And what happens when that boxer brings 4 friends too? That's even number of people fighting, but the other team has 100% more toons. Fair? Fun? It appears CCP at least has answered that "no". And you can bet they are thinking it's PvM implications as well.

Also, multiboxing has been in the game for 15 months now, in the form that negatively affects people. I've done towers, dynabosses etc since 2006 and never run into one before. Dual/multilogging is different thing.

[Freor]

some interesting stuff i found http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8156016099

one interesting quote: Semantics issue #3:
Does multiboxing give a player an in-game advantage?
“Yes–and so does grouping.”
Therefore, can multiboxing be considered an exploit?
“No. We consider it be an alternative playstyle; not everyone can do it, but if a person is willing to devote the concentration and capital to such a venture–legitimately–we’re perfectly fine with it. Five multiboxed accounts can be feared and CCed just like five solo accounts.

-Belfaire, Blizzard Poster

i hope fc handles it this way

From the same link:

“From a certain perspective, the strange thing about this stance is that the multiboxing player has the least advantage in a battleground. A battleground is a closed system, the teams are ideally even, the multiboxer is more prone to disruptive assaults from other players, and the numerical advantage is wholly nullified in this scenario.”

The above would apply to BS (if it works as it should). NW (or dynas etc for that matter) isnt a closed system. So yes, I agree with you - FC handling it this way would be a lot better than current situation. Allow it in BS where numbers should be even, but ban it on NW, dynas and other non-closed areas/systems.

[Voiran]

but ban it on NW, dynas and other non-closed areas/systems.

Blizzard actually allows multiboxing in open world pvp and pve in general. I hope fc lets it be that way too. Obviously in eve online people where clearly botting and not multiboxing the way we are doing in ao. Here we dont have people mining some crap with 20 characters etc. And as a game ao is more close to wow so fc could have similar perspective to multiboxing as blizzard has.

action starts at around 9:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO_RsLCPkoI

another funny video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRsyZrSnzE4

[Freor]

No, botting in EVE was banned already. If you read the link, the CCP post clearly states they are extending the ban to boxing (or "input multiplexing") as well. You really cannot twist that around.

And AO isn't WoW, hopefully never will be. Though higher population would be nice. And the far lower population is something you just have to take into account when considering the effects MB has. The fact that even EVE with their numbers considers is bad enough to add to banlist speaks volumes.

[Esqi]

That sub routine will lock up all other keys unless you use a stop command type thing.

Still.

[Alternity]

The fact that even EVE with their numbers considers is bad enough to add to banlist speaks volumes.

CCP has been working very hard on giving players what they want these last 6 months. The EVE reddit thread is quite good at giving an view into the playerbase mindset. The subreddit EVE has gone from absurd amounts of whining and doomsday sayers, to developer praise threads and people begging devs to chill with the insane dev posts with more good news. Then again the devs are quite active on reddit, official forums, twitter and twitch tv. But they are more devs so I am not saying Michi should do the same. The number of devs however is not important, its the reason "why" behind all these changes. CCP knows they have done a very poor job the last few years, and they have finaly put power into the dev's hands to give players what they want and need. All over the board, no matter if you are PvP or PvM, they are treated equal. Michi's quality of life patches are in sense the same thing I suppose.

I do play both EVE and AO, but I hardly PvP anymore in AO. One its hard to find PvP, two I don't want to fight MBers so its BS action if it runs. But the biggest draw for me in terms of loving EVE is the community. My first "large" fleet OP had the losing side going "gg thanks for the fun" in local chat as their pods warped out. This is because in EVE players know and understand that they rely on the other side to have fun, so there is a lot of respect. AO's PvP community is sadly putrid when compared, perhaps the brightest sign of a decaying playerbase.

AO PvP can be equally great, it just ain't right now, and it needs changes to become healty again.

** EDIT **

I'll just add that EVE PvP ain't no unicorn painting rainbows everywhere, there is a lot of messed up people there who take the game way to serious. But in general there is respect and people are happy when someone comes out to fight.

[Ophiuchus]

Hm. Well as long as they (CCP and hopefully eventually FC) can tell the difference between the automated commands and someone alt tabbing rapidly for seperate manual input then it's all good to me.

[Psikie]

If you think it's fair and good for the game/pvp that I need to bring 4 real people to kill one single boxer

Are you still talking about towers? Because my understanding is that towers are meant to be mass pvp/team/org events. Not 1 on 1. So if you are defending towers solo you are already doing something wrong.

Im sure you have a great ultra twink that you can tank and spank most players, but you obviously have little strategy if you can 't figure out how to combat a MB at towers. 2 players can wreck a MB pretty easy, if you are not too proud to ask nicely for an explanation or example I can show you.

Also, multiboxing has been in the game for 15 months now

On second thought with statements like this i don't know if you too far into your own world to be helped.

[Roscoe]

Are you still talking about towers? Because my understanding is that towers are meant to be mass pvp/team/org events. Not 1 on 1. So if you are defending towers solo you are already doing something wrong.

How's he meant to have mass anything with such low population numbers?

You think that the chart posted earlier was fabricated?

It's much harder for me to believe that the company that owns the game has no idea of current, active accounts. They have billing information don't they? Why is it hard to pull hard numbers of current subscribers?

I guess the only mistake he's making is not paying for 6 accounts and multiboxing himself. Hey, if 20 of you guys did it there could be 100 vs 100 battles again!

[DigitalBath]

@Roscoe: Or the mistake of not seeing the real issue. Multiboxing has been around for 8+ years. NOW it's an issue. Why? If your answer is low population, fix THAT. Always fix the underlying causes of your problems. Things will be better.

[Caloss2]

@Roscoe: Or the mistake of not seeing the real issue. Multiboxing has been around for 8+ years. NOW it's an issue. Why? If your answer is low population, fix THAT. Always fix the underlying causes of your problems. Things will be better.

Unfortunately it's also LOWERING a small population.

And before you say "I would like to see some tangible proof of that" stand by GMI at peak time now, and compare with 6 months ago.
Look at the amount of people on LFT compared to 5 months ago
Look at the prices on GMI
Watch the pvm channels, boxers selling services dominates.

[Alternity]

Unfortunately it's also LOWERING a small population.

And before you say "I would like to see some tangible proof of that" stand by GMI at peak time now, and compare with 6 months ago.
Look at the amount of people on LFT compared to 5 months ago
Look at the prices on GMI
Watch the pvm channels, boxers selling services dominates.

I think as late as last night there was a thread on these offical forums on how to multibox Collector. Let's not forget the hotkeynet guide thread on the very same offical forums. Its not just ingame sadly.

[Caloss2]

I think as late as last night there was a thread on these offical forums on how to multibox Collector. Let's not forget the hotkeynet guide thread on the very same offical forums. Its not just ingame sadly.

Sadly as the boxers farm, they also sell, then in turn sell the creds to EGpal who then sell creds back to the players to buy from the boxers. M boxing in AO is a cancer.

[jorricane]

Sadly as the boxers farm, they also sell, then in turn sell the creds to EGpal who then sell creds back to the players to buy from the boxers. M boxing in AO is a cancer.

Those credits are still coming from another source, not boxer farmers.

[Caloss2]

Those credits are still coming from another source, not boxer farmers.

Name it ? or was a notable boxer talking to jnnnghgngh lvl 1 fr00b, leaving then running back to hashashahasdg lvl 1 fr00b x3 outside bori fair trade for some other reason.

[Freor]

@Roscoe: Or the mistake of not seeing the real issue. Multiboxing has been around for 8+ years. NOW it's an issue. Why? If your answer is low population, fix THAT. Always fix the underlying causes of your problems. Things will be better.

I'm not sure where you're pulling that 8 years from. RK2? Certainly didnt happen on RK1, we would have noticed. Kinda hard to miss a guy controlling a team and instakilling people. And yeah, low population - already before the decline boxing caused/is causing - amplifies the problem. Fixing that would be great, but realistically, isn't going to happen in big enough scale any time soon. Specially not with boxers around. Sometimes you have to remove the poison needle to cure the patient. Or at least give her a chance CCP did it, I hope FC has the wisdom to do the same.

[Freor]

Name it ? or was a notable boxer talking to jnnnghgngh lvl 1 fr00b, leaving then running back to hashashahasdg lvl 1 fr00b x3 outside bori fair trade for some other reason.

lol, that explains a few things Nice catch!

[jorricane]

Name it ? or was a notable boxer talking to jnnnghgngh lvl 1 fr00b, leaving then running back to hashashahasdg lvl 1 fr00b x3 outside bori fair trade for some other reason.

Answered that in PM.

[DigitalBath]

I heartily disagree. I think we'll bleed out if you remove it. It's a mistake that will ruin the economy, the subscriber base and the player base right now.
The issues in PvP are bad, but are minor compared to what would happen with a more general ban that includes 100% of the PvM multiboxers as well (like CCP's)

[Alternity]

I heartily disagree. I think we'll bleed out if you remove it. It's a mistake that will ruin the economy, the subscriber base and the player base right now.
The issues in PvP are bad, but are minor compared to what would happen with a more general ban that includes 100% of the PvM multiboxers as well (like CCP's)

Exactly how will it ruin the economy? I ask because I am interested in hearing a constructive argument that contains at least guesstimate numbers to back the claim up.