Ranged Energy Endgame Weapons and Melee Energy Perk Support

[Le-Quack]

why would ma ned this high ar? when they first land a hit it does 3 times more dmg in pvp than a regular hit from any other becose of the high chanse of crit.
and anyways a ma without towers can reach 3700+ ar and with ofab attacks you perk even a adv. so when you can perk all professions i see no reason to complain about martial artist wich is more then enough balanced, in my eyes the most balanced profession we have with enf, if funcom would ever manage to balance the rest as they are it be a perfect game.

[Mzbiznezz]

Kyūdō

Kendo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo

I believe he was referring to the fact that the Ranger perkline is only open to MA all the way and that the Kyudo Bow buffs only exist for MA. Bow support already exists for MA but it still needs a nudge to make it a viable weapon type for them in comparison to fists.

I agree with that in terms of AO yes. My MA is lvl 200 and uses bow, so in AO terms yes I see that. BUT in historic terms Kyudo and Kendo are Japanese fighting styles aka martial arts, which is NOT the same thing as Kung Fu/Karate martial arts. They are historically the domain of Samurai which are technically the equivalent of European knights.

In AO the term "martial arts" is strictly in reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate, if you want to lump Kyudo and Kendo as martial arts then by definition you would have to include Sword and Shield and Way of the Gun as martial arts also. Which I assume is why tonfas/chucks use MA primarily as skill instead of 1hb.

If MA prof was renamed Samurai I would be all for that, but I would also request not only bow but 2he for katanas, 1he for wakizashi, and pistol for bajōzutsu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baj%C5%8Dzutsu.

Sorry, but I spent several years in Japan and the Japanese are VERY specific about that distinction and difference.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Kendo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo



I agree with that in terms of AO yes. My MA is lvl 200 and uses bow, so in AO terms yes I see that. BUT in historic terms Kyudo and Kendo are Japanese fighting styles aka martial arts, which is NOT the same thing as Kung Fu/Karate martial arts. They are historically the domain of Samurai which are technically the equivalent of European knights.

In AO the term "martial arts" is strictly in reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate, if you want to lump Kyudo and Kendo as martial arts then by definition you would have to include Sword and Shield and Way of the Gun as martial arts also. Which I assume is why tonfas/chucks use MA primarily as skill instead of 1hb.

If MA prof was renamed Samurai I would be all for that, but I would also request not only bow but 2he for katanas, 1he for wakizashi, and pistol for bajōzutsu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baj%C5%8Dzutsu.

Sorry, but I spent several years in Japan and the Japanese are VERY specific about that distinction and difference.

That's cool.

Good read.

[Raggy]

Kendo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kendo



I agree with that in terms of AO yes. My MA is lvl 200 and uses bow, so in AO terms yes I see that. BUT in historic terms Kyudo and Kendo are Japanese fighting styles aka martial arts, which is NOT the same thing as Kung Fu/Karate martial arts. They are historically the domain of Samurai which are technically the equivalent of European knights.

In AO the term "martial arts" is strictly in reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate, if you want to lump Kyudo and Kendo as martial arts then by definition you would have to include Sword and Shield and Way of the Gun as martial arts also. Which I assume is why tonfas/chucks use MA primarily as skill instead of 1hb.

If MA prof was renamed Samurai I would be all for that, but I would also request not only bow but 2he for katanas, 1he for wakizashi, and pistol for bajōzutsu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baj%C5%8Dzutsu.

Sorry, but I spent several years in Japan and the Japanese are VERY specific about that distinction and difference.

While interesting, I do not see what this has to do with how a game based in the 24th millenium treats weapons.

Bow is part of the MA toolset, it has support in the MA toolset, but is lacking in its application. The same way that RE is supported in the Soldier toolset and is lacking.

ME is a whole different story though, I've always thought ME as being a Keeper and Doc weapon type. Energy weapons by nature are clinical and precise, an extended scalpel for a Doctor, or a as a means of direct justice from a Keeper. It's just a shame there doesn't really seem to be much direction for the weapon type outside of the odd item with it here and there. The only buff in the game that gives ME comes from an Enforcer yet beyond that there is little to no support for it, no perklines and certainly no direction. Yet it has a Xan upgraded weapon for endgame?

[meeep]

There is one RE gun id like to get a boost and thats Lost hope/Faith.
I really like the look of it, its just so useless as it is atm.

[Mzbiznezz]

While interesting, I do not see what this has to do with how a game based in the 24th millenium treats weapons.

Bow is part of the MA toolset, it has support in the MA toolset, but is lacking in its application. The same way that RE is supported in the Soldier toolset and is lacking.

How do you define "toolset"?

Is it symbiant support? Perks? Research? All 3 or just 1 of the 3? Or a combination? Because if it is based off any of those 3 then more aptly it should be said... paid account MA's have bow as part of their viable builds, because froobs get none of those.

I have always thought of "toolset" being CORE abilities that ALL toons of a profession have. Expansions (sl/le/lox) well they expand on those core abilities to allow more variations. That might be a narrow minded in scope of me to think like that. For example all MA's have heals as part of their toolset and the ability to use any MA special attacks.

Not all MA's can effectively use bow any better than a trader. Sadly I think in most cases the trader would actually be better than the MA with bow. Traders actually have symb support artillery, nano support from drains, and AI perk support for bow, but does that mean Bow is part of their toolset? Or just that expansions allow for more variation on weapon types for traders?

I am no expert but I am curious what makes something "toolset". Is there is a hard rule to follow? Or just common accepted word?

[Raggy]

How do you define "toolset"?

Is it symbiant support? Perks? Research? All 3 or just 1 of the 3? Or a combination? Because if it is based off any of those 3 then more aptly it should be said... paid account MA's have bow as part of their viable builds, because froobs get none of those.

I have always thought of "toolset" being CORE abilities that ALL toons of a profession have. Expansions (sl/le/lox) well they expand on those core abilities to allow more variations. That might be a narrow minded in scope of me to think like that. For example all MA's have heals as part of their toolset and the ability to use any MA special attacks.

Not all MA's can effectively use bow any better than a trader. Sadly I think in most cases the trader would actually be better than the MA with bow. Traders actually have symb support artillery, nano support from drains, and AI perk support for bow, but does that mean Bow is part of their toolset? Or just that expansions allow for more variation on weapon types for traders?

I am no expert but I am curious what makes something "toolset". Is there is a hard rule to follow? Or just common accepted word?

By toolset, yes, I do mean paid accounts. While I don't like brushing froobs aside, the game itself is largely based on the assumption the player is a paid member.

So a paid MA has access to an AI Perkline, Symbiant Support, Self Buffs and I believe research that gives them Bow. But it is still far behind actual MA despite it obviously having support. And as I said before, RE suffers the same fate for Soldiers

[Mzbiznezz]

By toolset, yes, I do mean paid accounts. While I don't like brushing froobs aside, the game itself is largely based on the assumption the player is a paid member.

So a paid MA has access to an AI Perkline, Symbiant Support, Self Buffs and I believe research that gives them Bow. But it is still far behind actual MA despite it obviously having support. And as I said before, RE suffers the same fate for Soldiers

Not trying to be difficult but, from my previous post traders have access to ai perline from champ artillery, symb support for bow in artillery symbs, and "self buffs" from drains. Does that mean Bow is part of trader toolset or more broadly with that definition any ranged weapon would be part of traders "toolset"? Would that be correct?

I only ask because I want to know what is commonly considered "toolset" as opposed to "options available with expansions".

[DigitalBath]

@Mzbiznezz: I would say the fact Bow is a green skill for MA's coupled with the several items (MA only bows, bow startup weapons that are themed for MA's, etc), specific bow buffs (trader drains give them every weapon skill, it's a huge tangent to try and argue that's a "bow buff" when compared to the MA lines). The combination of all of the mentioned bits and pieces + green skill + specific buffs and items makes it part of their toolset rather than just an "expansion option".

[Mzbiznezz]

The combination of all of the mentioned bits and pieces + green skill + specific buffs and items makes it part of their toolset rather than just an "expansion option".

Ok so what I am getting is that there is no hard set rule to what is toolset, but it seems this is a "forums definition". I am clear now thank you.

[DigitalBath]

Ok so what I am getting is that there is no hard set rule to what is toolset, but it seems this is a "forums definition". I am clear now thank you.

Kind of, FC themselves would probably use green skills + nanolines (e.g. https://aoitems.com/nano/strain/815/) as a definition. We just extend it slightly with some logic applied to the builds people play regularly.

[Mzbiznezz]

Kind of, FC themselves would probably use green skills + nanolines (e.g. https://aoitems.com/nano/strain/815/) as a definition. We just extend it slightly with some logic applied to the builds people play regularly.

I guess where my confusion comes in is that if someone does not have SL, then by this school of thought, Bow is no longer considered toolset then? Or a paid player with AI, Lox, and LE but not SL? Does that make more sense?

From another perspective, MP's have no green weapon skills, but it is considered 1hb/2hb/bow and sometimes even pistol for their "toolset". So I read different posts on forums about what toolset is but for every "forums definition" there is are professions that don't fit those molds.

[DigitalBath]

Mzbiznezz: It seems to me you're overthinking the whole toolset discussion and jumping out of reality by nitpicking the issue (you're actually asking questions about people who don't have SL and have all other expansions.. it's unrealistic and, to me, ridiculous). Don't do it, it's bad for your credibility and for the discussion. There's no reason to be confused about this.

Toolsets do vary across expansion/non-expansion players here and there. So what?
Staying with reality helps understand the basic toolsets vs. additional tools given by expansions (one could say they expand one's toolset as well).

My point stands. Green skill + supporting nanolines means FC clearly intended for players to at least try that option out with the characters. Doesn't guarantee it'll work if you overthink it though. (imagine a MA using ONLY Bow).

AO is awesome in regards to dynamic builds. Let's keep it that way and add to it.

[Mzbiznezz]

My point stands. Green skill + supporting nanolines means FC clearly intended for players to at least try that option out with the characters. Doesn't guarantee it'll work if you overthink it though. (imagine a MA using ONLY Bow).

I may be over thinking this. Im not asking for credibility but for clarity. I have 2 accounts, my first account was SL only (210 keeper) and my second account (with my 200 MA) has AI only from a special offer. So as unusual as it may be that is the reality of MY situation. I have no LoX or LE. So that is why I was trying to find some definitive rule for what is cannon for "toolset".

I could have mentioned that at first but wanted to get objective responses without bias. The green skill + supporting nanolines still leaves MP (all blue weapon skills and no weapon buffs) out of any toolset criteria also.

So this is obviously not a question for forum debates as much as a question that should be asked to Funcom I suppose. I had hoped some veteran would have had a definite answer or link to some chart or something. I read some other thread about traders doing more damage with MA skill than shotguns (which by "forums definition" is NOT part of their toolset) so it got me wondering is the only reason I even posted.

[DigitalBath]

@Mzbiznezz: MP are essentially a pet class. It makes sense that whatever weapons they use are an "extra". The creation weapons are a good example of this as they're supportive in role. Bows were added to the toolset in AI via some perk support and they're quite a good idea, too. This doesn't mean some people can't come up with an extraordinary build that wasn't planned for. MA trader is one such build where it works regardless of FC's original intention. Your case is a rare exception and shouldn't be taken as an example of what FC's idea of a "toolset" may be. Especially as it would be horrible to develop a game where any combination of expansions and booster packs would have to offer similar toolsets for each profession. Most MMOs in the market don't bother wasting their time on this either because generally you're either F2P or have all the expansions. The few that get stuck in the middle are ignored until they join one of the bigger groups.

There's no chart, no established definition of each prof's toolset (which doesn't include only weapons, of course.. it's all the tools.. pets, utility from perks/nanos, etc) and hopefully there will never be.

I see it a bit as I see the AAD vs. Evades argument. It's fun to experiment and it would be bad for FC to come out and say how it works in a definitive way.

[Mzbiznezz]

There's no chart, no established definition of each prof's toolset (which doesn't include only weapons, of course.. it's all the tools.. pets, utility from perks/nanos, etc) and hopefully there will never be.

I see it a bit as I see the AAD vs. Evades argument. It's fun to experiment and it would be bad for FC to come out and say how it works in a definitive way.

Fair enough, thank you for the insight.

[Raggy]

Gunna give this a little bump.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'd also like a faster cooldown on Energize:

add dmg buff lasts 30s, recharges in 55s

Perks recharge in less than 60s so you can use them on CD. Obviously.

[Raggy]

I know you're hiding that amazingly cool Ranged Energy model on your person somewhere Michi, give it to us plebs!

[SirAronar]

Honestly Ranged Energy (and Melee for that matter) really could use some options across all levels for both Froob and Paid so as to be an option for people. Ranged Energy can have both one handed and two handed options with different design schemes.

2h with combinations of Burst, Full Auto, and Fling Shot and 1h with Burst and Fling Shot would bolster Soldier options and throw some decent crumbs to other profs who can use RE. The new 90-150 content would be a good starting point for some newly available awesome RE weapons. Incremental releases over later patches could fill the roster nicely.

Tangent:
Melee Energy technically has a decent 1-200 option in the North Wind Katana which would be awesome as a mission reward item (the Advent-only East Wind Katana is rollable, but as a 2hE/ME weapon only usable by a profession that nearly only uses Pistol and 1hE is pretty much a waste of space). On related note the MA-friendly West Wind Katana and 2hE option South Wind Katana could be looked at along with the North Wind (while North, West, and South are technically available at low QLs from Temple of Three Winds, they're not really sought or used much). Heck add a reasonable tradeskill process to turn East Wind Katana into the other three so the East Wind becomes useful for something beyond being a toy.