If we had Crits we could actually play full Bow or Ma setup in both PvP and PvM. You are not going to be usefull at all with noncrit fist hits, a few perks and a non crit SA in PvP even with 3k AR. Pretty much forced to play Bow setup, but that would be rather useless dmg for PvE again(what i was reffering to with the 10x more doc dmg btw).
Btw i was fine with the old nanocost on my zazen Ma with just 1 ND imp, didnt even use sup feet.
I see where this conversation is going.
I have some (maybe obvious) observations:
1. in standard endgame play in 18.6 MA nano expenditure goes probably 95% to controlled damage buffs ~4% to MA attacks and <1% to healing - however, in SOLO play that balance changes significantly to perhaps as high as 75% healing, 20% controlled damage buffs and 5% MA attacks perhaps
2. in standard endgame play (non zazen) in 18.7 The distribution will be almost exactly the same both in solo and teamed.
In standard endgame play in Zazen stance, my feeling is that MA's in a combat setup, in a team that has no clue on how to mitigate damage should be hard pressed to manage his nano - in some cases after prolonged continuous casting, say 2 minutes, is depleted completely in nano. Therefore, in a gimp team, a MA would need nano healing by keeper/trader/MP/NT types in order to maintain that level of healing. I'd say an MA should be EASILY capable of healing continuously for say, <60s which would give him time to heal nano.
As it stands, at only 30% increase in nanocost, I do not see any kind of dependency on nano from an external source - ever, unless the MA somehow decides that controlled damage buffs are more important than keeping his team alive, in which case, stupidity because stupidity.
Therefore, In essence, I agree with voyvoy: I'd like to see a MODERATE adjustment to nanocost AND evades AND damage reduction AND -% crit.
How about this:
heal efficiency: 120%
crit %: -50%
nanocost %: +60%
add damage: (no change)
evades: -400 at level 200 (440 at 220)
This will make MA's still do reasonable damage, will keep them a bit evadey, will mean that they can keep up DPS to a fair margin but not be totally penalized, BUT, MA will also likely need some form of nano support in an either lengthy or demanding encounter.
to McKnuckleSamwich: The main reason for the back and forth argument was his numbers were way too overdone and his reasons for them were rather lacking with his best and really only one being for crit debuff which I agreed with to some degree but I felt removing the crit debuff entirely was too much so I gave the suggestion of 50% which you seemed to also suggest. Scaling the Crit I feel is a good idea as it goes along with the other debuffs, a 150 MA with a 37-38% crit debuff sits at around -9% before procs/armor which lets a MA of any lvl be capable of critting if they go for it.
As for the nanocost change his only reasons were "my MA with a ND imp was fine" and trying to force a gimmick on us with that heal perk. If he gave calcs/setups to show where he was getting his nanocost number from I might have been able to give more constructive criticism or tweeks instead of just bashing it.
heal efficiency: 120%
crit %: -50%
nanocost %: +60%
add damage: (no change)
evades: -400 at level 200 (440 at 220)
Those zazen changes look more workable.
Modify % Add. Nano Cost +150 < Modify % Add. Nano Cost +60 - better by far, only concern with increasing nanocost is that it makes heals+dmg buff drain more nano forcing a MA to not even think of casting dmg buff. 60% can be worked with tho.
Healing Efficiency 100% =? heal efficiency: 120% I don't think either one would bother me much as most of a Zazen MAs healing is from the hots still, the nerf to the hots did make them closer tho.
crit %: +0% < crit %: -50% - pretty much as I said before, lets a MA push some crit if they want while not letting them do 80-85% of their normal DD with 8 times the healing power
Modify Martial Arts at level 220 -500 (-450 at lvl 200) << no MA debuff - still not sure why he was so adamant with debuffing MA.
All Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200) =? add damage: (no change) - if you mean that it doesn't reduce dmg at all than I might be in favor of having the add damage debuff, perks and AS/SA are affected by add dmg and I don't wanna see MAs alphaing people in zazen as easily as not having zazen up, just lowering the damage debuff I could agree with. mostly a concern with pvp than anything.
All Evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200) =? evades: -400 at level 200 (440 at 220) - Kinda torn on lowering the evade debuff as the ability to perk zazen MAs out of dof/ES is what makes fighting against them possible but only lowering it by 100 might not be that bad. In pvm with the -550 evades still having 2.9-3k def as a main healer is pretty good compared to docs and agents.
heal efficiency: 100%
crit %: -45% at 200 (-50% at 220)
nanocost %: +60%
add damage: -200 (220 at 220)
evades: -400 at level 200 (440 at 220)
Your thoughts on these changes?
These are totally workable. This will make it much more difficult to cast controlled damage buffs in combat (i.e you'll drain more than half your nanopool using autumn leaves!!!!! watch out!)Originally Posted by Rockdizzle
Which I feel is completely fine - the only possible issue I see is that the 60% cost really starts to eat away at the martial artiness of MA's.
Consider that MA's have traditionally used nano for MA attacks/healing/controlled damage buffs. In zazen, two of those CORE components of our toolset are on the wayside - we simply won't be able to afford spamming sappo, or autumn leaves like we did before.
Is that OK?
Personally, I can live with it, but I will sympathize with MA's who feel that we're devolving the MA "feeling".
Broadly speaking though, the main thing is balance, and I feel that the suggestions resulting from voyvoy's initial rampage weren't taken out of context, instead, we've adopted his/her sentiment and adjusted the conceptual model.
Kudo's.
I think we're very close to ideal buffs/debuffs with zazen.
The only possible adjustment I think zazen needs, is with the boost to nanocost, we should perhaps add 1 more tick of the HoT on team/target heal.
On another topic... Does anyone else want to see Red dawn become a team heal if Zazen is active? I think that could be cool.
There are no changes needed to zazen if you don't aim to fix its major flaws
Which is
1. Horrible single target healing for out of team targets.
2. Impossible to PvE and PvP with the same zazen setup.
Oh and about the "nano was fine before on a zazen ma". I actually played one on test and i'm not just theorycrafting. We did 12m with dual zazen and a zods run as single healer.
Not sure if your just a troll, anyways...
Remember Zazen MA will not replace doctor as a solid "raid" healer alone, trying to shoehorn them in that role will just make them a weaker doc DD/heal wise if zazen has to debuff more or too OP in pvp if they heal too much. Making them more capable of switching between main tank healing and healing other teammates/randoms without long cooldowns would be great tho. Just needs to be done while thinking about all possible situations pvm/pvp/mass raid pvm/mass open pvp.
1.Zazen MA's should have a weaker but more spamable heal for situations that require it without being too strong.
quick examples so anyone is free to pick at or adjust numbers:
Give Life: Small Matrix (previously Give Life: 100)
Attack 1.00s
Recharge 0.50s
Cooldown 3.00s (same line as single target heal so MAs don't cycle both single heals but fast enough to heal main tank with Matrix of Ka/Soul of Rubi if needed)
NanoPoints 375
Range 20M
Self Health >= 1201 And
Self Caster Running Martial Artist Zazen Stance And (MAs never use give life/nano anyways so limiting it to zazen won't hurt anyone)
Self Profession == MartialArtist And
Self Sensory Impr >= 1250 And
Self Bio Metamor >= 1250
Self Damage for 600, mitigated by Energy AC.
Target Heal for 1200. (ends up around 2.5k healing with zazen putting it behind Soul of rubi/Matrix of Ka but better than Advs/Agent single heals)
Share Life: Group Matrix (previously Give Energy: 100)
Attack 1.00s
Recharge 1.00s
Cooldown 8.00s (same line as Team heal so MAs don't cycle both team heals, alittle slower due to its effect as shown below)
NanoPoints 1200
Range 20M
Self Caster Running Martial Artist Zazen Stance And (MAs never use give life/nano anyways so limiting it to zazen won't hurt anyone)
Self Profession == MartialArtist And
Self Sensory Impr >= 1250 And
Self Bio Metamor >= 1250
Self Cast Shared Life: Group Matrix.
Target Damage for 400, mitigated by Energy AC. 4 times, once every 2.00s.
Target Cast Share Life: Group Matrix on team. (Works like Crat xp buff where it lands on everyone in the same team as target)
Duration 8.50s
Target Heal for 750-800. 4 times, once every 2.00s.
"2. Impossible to PvE and PvP with the same zazen setup." Me and Knuckles already were looking at numbers to find a middle ground where a MA can perform as well in pvm and pvp but be limited by time(nano) when alone, but feel free to pitch in aswell with some adjustments to compare. Anything involving nerfing MA skill will be ignored by me heh.
lastly I would take past results with a grain of salt as Init debuffs were not landing on bosses and mobs that resisted them, most mobs are fixed now (except tarasque) so retesting would give a clearer picture of MAs current standing heal wise
Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 21st, 2015 at 00:48:29.
To be honest and with all respect to the devs and testers but i see many professions get hugh buffs while beeing love professions... Now to the ma... Over the years you found engis / docs / trader / enfs to imitate ma and using martial arts. Now the original martial arts prof who is called martial artist ist kinda unable to use martial arts. We wanted some buffs not to stripp and refocus on a complet ma as i know... I mean over the years we gave many suggestions but i dont see the sense in all these stuff. I mean you can balance it in other ways like higher dmg buffs or changing ma weapons and so on ... Zazen this think i got rid of it. Reading that a doc ( lowest dmg prof ) odd an ma ( who should be a dd prof) thats in my eyes totally wrong. I mean with all additions from testlife what does the ma really need? In my eyes heal is the correct answer but not in the exchange of dmg. With all the new items which are adding masses of max hp the heal of the ma stayed constant. I think if the heal and the healperks would get a bit finetuning all discussions about this ( sorry for saying it ) zazen wont happen.
The problem today we see is lack of ability in mass pvp and dd ... A bow setup would CLEARLY decrease the dmg we got already at that time ( is that balang?) . In mass pvp we would gain range that is good but if you want to rush the ct while towers are up. Or if a small group attacks you lack the ability to fight effectivöy back, because you are missing stuns and perks.... Your alpha will be much weaker.
It feels like it is a alpha of a engineer( who aint able to kill docs in pvp withouth demolitions amd or freak str) that ist what im seeing and concliding from all informations i have seen.. If im not correct than say it.
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