18.7.0.20 - Traders!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

lol... ^^ great post.

I just want to say though, that in ADDITION to the suggestions already put forward - I'm suggesting a 600AAD/10s boost to CP - not as the only change.

[Vispa]

You seem to be having a rough day. You yourself said you duel because city/BS is miserable for traders. I agree; see point 6. I said you're a bad person to balance off, which you agreed with.
When I click on you, I see 12m. When I knew you, you had towers. Where does dueling me fit into this, and why are you lumping me with Knuckle?
I've DEFENDED you over questionable runspeed, and I just pvped with both of those players 1-2 days ago. Good to see you again too.

Any maxed geared trader is a bad person to base balance off. The point is to be able to perform without needing 220/70/30, alphas, and aiarmor as mentioned several times. Goes for all classes. The current changes already have proven to make that worse than it currently is on live for trader.

Trader can be a little miserable in BS/city, doesn't mean i don't do it :P When you click on me you see 12man? lol wut. As for towers, i can count the times I've planted them on trader with my 2 hands, give or take. Just because my org has had sites doesn't mean i had nor could be bothered.
And correction, you defended me for CP accusations. Runspeed was a whole nother thing back in SM.

Putting that aside, i haven't seen either of them, along with any other traders who pvped. i'd love to see their thoughts to the changes along with them actually testing it.

Implying I don't have multiple traders? I don't give PvP advice on anything but Agent and maybe Doc. I wouldn't feel qualified to. What's wrong with you?

Nothing, actually. Paper pvp can be annoying, when you play the class and people assume making a scenario is how things go. It's like me trying to tell you how to agent. wwwwwwowwwwowwwchwwwww pvpscore agent as op!
Seeing as i've only seen you 2-3 times since i've gotten back, and known you to be completely lazy to make alts, yeah i implied you not playing a tl7 trader, if thats the case, it still is to be implied. We all know anything below tl7 (tl5 a bit questionable, i suppose) is dumb when it comes to trader.



A few of the suggestions that have been brought up can and will enhance trader provided we get attention. Mentioned numerous times, we will be one, if not, the hardest to get right on the balance scale. Hopefully we won't lean toward one way or the other, doubt being at a high level.

[dritst]

Our main problem is people HATES trader prof, at tl7 you always targeted first EVEN IF there is 2 doc sitting just around you.
Trader have to tempory disable opponent, have to drain you, to make your weapon OE,ect well TO BOTHER you.
I don't mind swap hud 3 def instead of AS scope even if i know i wont kill a lot (wow 20 sec AS, even with stun perk, our alpha is pretty weak), just to gain enough def to be safe -if i can land CP on 1 target (even if other around will perk me).
BUT the new changes are kinda bad for us, and i have got the feeling that all those lil kid who cryed about the fact that being drained is not fun have been followed by FC, without taking in consideration the purpose of trader profession. Yes we are annoying but we are designed to be so (and yes not to be "alphaer"). To do our job we need good passive def to allow us drain opponent. If we can be alphaed by anyone, well what the purpose of trader? wrangle? -_-'
In paper pvp , you can swap rea cloak swap, def hud, combat board, swap chest mystical/jathos, swap ring. In duel it is viable, in mass pvp, come on , the time you swap you wil be alphaed -_- (please don't compare this witth opi shade that swap spirit/equip or even adv/ma because they have got, as ssromp stated, a higher DEF -yes i got all)

[Raggy]

Stoof

Ok, yes the buffs stack, just like on Live, but you're ignoring a fundamental part of the equation here.

D/P and CP/IS no longer stack on the target. What does this mean? It means that the target now has 550 more AR to hit us with because the -weaponskills doesn't remain on the target when CP/IS are cast and we also lost the -AAO components of D/P so that's another 300 AR for the target bringing our effective defensive draining capability from 1550 to 600!

Pray tell where the supposed buff is?

[lufa1982]

The buff is to be found in an alternative universe, where the alien races invented new laws of math, known commonly as Srompumathics.

The central concept of Srompumathics is that our > is their <.

3100+275+275+300 > 3100+475+475+600
60% reflect > 70 reflect
0 seconds of preptime > 3 seconds of preptime
10 second window before you have to redrain > 3 minute and 20 second window before you have to redrain.

Basically , each time he posts some calculations, just replace > with a < , and you will translate the equations into how our universe operates.

[JustinSane4]

On TL, Theft Humidity is a level 20 nano with a level 200 level lock. Looks like a bug or typo.

[dritst]

By the way, about the silverback change (recharge to 1,6 instead of 1,5), Trader will get some AS support (perk/nano). It is enough hard actually to balance def/as/nano regen, with this change it gona be even painful (if you add all the new change in the equation :X)

Or shall we go Remod

[Raggy]

By the way, about the silverback change (recharge to 1,6 instead of 1,5), Trader will get some AS support (perk/nano). It is enough hard actually to balance def/as/nano regen, with this change it gona be even painful (if you add all the new change in the equation :X)

Or shall we go Remod

I think overall we're going to be moving away from the Silverback at TL7 thanks to the PDKP. Having a capped recharge Burst for very little IP expenditure is going to be valuable. Plus we can always add AS through the Onehander, even though the range leaves alot to be desired.

That's not to say the Silverback won't remain a good TL5 and earlier option for Shotgun-toting Traders.

[Raggy]

Removed total immunities from certain Trader, Doctor, Meta-Physicist, etc. buffs from all monsters; they still have some resistances to them, in addition to Nano Resist, however.

Decision by Committee will correctly spawn pets for 60 seconds, with a 5 minute recharge; they've also been going to the gym.

From the latest TL patch notes.


Glad to see Michi is tackling things that have been irking us for a very long time. I'm eager to see how well the committee will hit for now as they will make for a very good DPM cooldown and also a pretty interesting alpha-strike in PvP.

I'm looking forward to seeing the more profession intensive changes coming up in the next few patches. I sent him a PM a week or so ago outlining the issues we have all discussed and other things Traders ingame have spoken to me about.

The committee was one of those things. Glad to see he also followed through with the changes to let us drain anything in PvM, very helpful in certain encounters. For those interested, here is a list of the concerns I sent to him:

Drain Immunity of various PvM bosses (being fixed)
NBS DtN ratio being abysmally high
Static Defence too low to warrant defence nerfs (CP/IS overrwrites D/P)
YEEIYF target combat requirement is stupid and annoying.
Pets - Anything going to happen with them?
Charms - Whats going on with them?
We need either CiB or Acrobat to stay competitive come 18.7 with the number of defensive check revisions and Traders already very low static defence
Shutdown Skills - Why was this removed? It's essentially destroyed Trader TL7 PvP without it.

If you guys can come up with any other irksome things, please let me know.

[nanoforcer]

I'll spam a bit, a full minute on the punch bag.


VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 159 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1149 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 299 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 539 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1321 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 344 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 293 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1153 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 611 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 900 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 365 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1041 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 471 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 624 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 285 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1393 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 773 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 826 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 520 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 794 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 313 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 342 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1314 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1097 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1239 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1214 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 538 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1237 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 451 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 342 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1222 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 471 points of melee damage.

[nanoforcer]

Debuffs seem to vary a bit, most mostly root/ac debuff/ drains (-211 bigest i saw) / nanopoints drain.
Not that impressive, yet?

[Raggy]

Calculated it all together. Came to 29703. 30k DPM with added debuffs. Hmm, it's OK.

EDIT: Hopped on to give mine a go.

VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1487 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1528 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 304 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1522 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1794 points of melee damage. Critical hit!
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1414 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1418 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1472 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1282 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 650 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 712 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 950 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 386 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 603 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1344 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1402 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 493 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 1507 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 945 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 421 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 575 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 925 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 891 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 667 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1055 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 378 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 156 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1006 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1222 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 658 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 392 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 1232 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 195 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 782 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 205 points of melee damage.
VP - Public Relations hit Punching Bag for 529 points of melee damage.
VP - Operations hit Punching Bag for 1042 points of melee damage.
VP - Marketing hit Punching Bag for 324 points of melee damage.
VP - Internal Affairs hit Punching Bag for 1441 points of melee damage.

37103. 37k DPM. This is also with the -211 Skill Drain, 8k~ AC Drain, 450~ Nano drain AND a reasonably fast landing root.

I think that's not too bad tbh. Naturally though the DPM has to be taken with a grain of salt since it's being used against a target with no ACs and no evades.

[Saetos]

I noticed a couple low hits in the 100-300 range... so yeah, they're still not going to hit for more than that on anything 220 Traders still care to fight.

[Poko]

That list seems resonable raggy, maybe not cib. But acro could work..maybe a little bet better healing aswell?
Also what about a snare? It seems some of our problems comes with fumble drains, aswell as multiple attacks..maybe a snare nano could give us that extra time we need?

Also..could we get chem added to our endgame t radeskill buff?

[Raggy]

I noticed a couple low hits in the 100-300 range... so yeah, they're still not going to hit for more than that on anything 220 Traders still care to fight.

I think it's going to be more a case of will they actually hit? Since the committee on Live has about 50 AR between them.

That list seems resonable raggy, maybe not cib. But acro could work..maybe a little bet better healing aswell?
Also what about a snare? It seems some of our problems comes with fumble drains, aswell as multiple attacks..maybe a snare nano could give us that extra time we need?

Also..could we get chem added to our endgame t radeskill buff?

I honestly think our healing is in an OK position right now, we're not meant to be the best healers, just there as a top-up. Also our own self-sufficiency is going to be alot better comes 18.7 when people start picking up the PDKPs and realising how much healing Accumulator actually does when you have 2/3 attack bars.

Snare? What would that achieve that our root doesn't already? Confused on that one.

As for Chem, well, I was always a little confused as to why that was left off the DB TS Buff when Engineer has it too.

[Saetos]

Tested on an Inferno Heckler (the ones near the 255 Incarnator). I don't remember them attacking as slow as they did - maybe AR trouble? - but they would never hit higher than 127 each (with ~380 crits). They didn't have trouble landing their debuffs and they stole agg once (while I was standing still not doing anything watching damage logs) but otherwise they still aren't going to be anything more than just things you pop in Inf missions to watch the reactions in Team chat.

[srompu]

Ok, yes the buffs stack, just like on Live, but you're ignoring a fundamental part of the equation here.

D/P and CP/IS no longer stack on the target. What does this mean? It means that the target now has 550 more AR to hit us with because the -weaponskills doesn't remain on the target when CP/IS are cast and we also lost the -AAO components of D/P so that's another 300 AR for the target bringing our effective defensive draining capability from 1550 to 600!

Pray tell where the supposed buff is?

The buff is in that all four drains can be pre-drained, old-school style. The buffs all stack.
The problem was never being unable to drain someone fully. It was surviving long enough to land nanos. Being pre-loaded with 300 AAD and 30 anticrit is a huge boost, especially because of all the <100%-checking perks. Four times the cast speed is amazing as well for reacting.
Also, live you can create -1600 AR effectively, not 1550. On test you can create 875, not 600.

You don't have to be upset. I'm explaining what your buffs do. You can't get the right fix if you don't know. I don't say anything in engi forums because I want them to die horribly.

[Raggy]

The buff is in that all four drains can be pre-drained, old-school style. The buffs all stack.

You're assuming that we can enter a fight pre-drained now. The only place that is ever likely to happen is in Tower wars and that happens already because loldrainpets. Fighting from the first step, we have to land our drains, we can't come pre-loaded, we can't self drain anymore.

The problem was never being unable to drain someone fully. It was surviving long enough to land nanos.

Woah, woah, woah. What? Our entire defensive toolset is based around draining our target fully! How can you type that with a straight face?

Being pre-loaded with 300 AAD and 30 anticrit is a huge boost, especially because of all the <100%-checking perks. Four times the cast speed is amazing as well for reacting.

300AAD means nothing. Literally, nothing. Since we have lost the -AAO from D/P and the -weaponskills will no longer stack with CP/IS. What has actually happened is, we have lost a huge amount of pro-active defense. On top of the fact we have the lowest static defence of any evade class

Also, live you can create -1600 AR effectively, not 1550. On test you can create 875, not 600.

You're right, 1600, I missed the extra 50 from the current CP debuff.

But about 18.7, you are not. CP takes 300 AAD and gives it to us. IS takes 300 AAO and gives it to us.

CP+IS = 600 effective defence
IS+Plunder = 575 e/d
CP+Deprive = 575 e/d

Where is this magical extra 275 coming from?

You don't have to be upset. I'm explaining what your buffs do. You can't get the right fix if you don't know. I don't say anything in engi forums because I want them to die horribly.

I'm not upset, I'm just confused.

[srompu]

The only place I can think of where you can't predrain is right as BS starts. Duel room needs a drain totem too. Traders have always predrained. This is not really new. All four drains can be PvMed, which is a really nice change.

I have a straight face because I said fully. It's absolutely true. Who you afraid of currently? The guy you have ~12 seconds to drain peacefully, or the shade/enfo dropping the hammer on you out of nowhere? The fight usually gets better the longer it goes.
And of course 300 AAD means something. I'm not saying it's enough, or traders are fixed, but it's a Good Thing.

The extra 275 is what I'm trying to explain. You have 300 AAD up from CP, you drain 300 AR from your target using IS, and you drain 275 from your target using Plunder. I haven't seen one person who admits to understanding this. Please say you do. Say you love me. Be mine.

Honestly, apart from some time/value tweaks, I don't think what traders really need is massive def rating. Evades are off/on against perks, and non-NM trader is begging to get alphaed. If you get enough def to be alpha-immune, it'll be OP and you'll still get ganked by full AR setups. I think traders need a huge burst heal, either from fixing purple heart or from an improved 50% NR health plunder or something. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Know what would be cool? A HP swap nano. Heals you half their existing HP, nukes them to your HP. Might be OP, but would be fun.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The extra 275 is what I'm trying to explain. You have 300 AAD up from CP, you drain 300 AR from your target using IS, and you drain 275 from your target using Plunder. I haven't seen one person who admits to understanding this.

You lose the 300 AAO debuff on target if you swap to plunder.