18.7.0.21 Testlive notes.

[Vinkera]

I've never heard of that any more than just discussion.

NT's are still very much single threaded and depend on timing to throw up defenses in between nuking.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I don't think there's any reason to disregard the content that anyone who isn't max lvl are going around doing. The constant focus on absolute endgame is unhealthy.

On the contrary, it's called progress. I wouldn't use the term "constant focus" either, as endgame in AO changes only once every few years with expansion packs and has been intact for 6 years now.

[Mastablasta]

Masta, unfortunately, DTB is right in my NT's case now.

Most of the time, she can be found standing at org spot, like a decorative statute. When it comes to farming or any other trash killing, (as much as I dislike him) my crat is the toon for the job.

"Vinkera" only comes out for DB1/2/3, IS, Catacombs, or some other various things where she's the better choice due to situational survivability.

Although I did build her build her to take a beating, she has no killing power yet

My point being that NTs are too slow in their damage windup and never actually get the damage windup payoff, because others who don't need any windup just have better or more damage output just in general.

On the contrary, it's called progress. I wouldn't use the term "constant focus" either, as endgame in AO changes only once every few years with expansion packs and has been intact for 6 years now.

Constant as being constant in discussions on the topic, everything but endgame is disregarded by people who have obviously lost track of there being anything but the endgame. I guess the jaded standpoint is to just ignore everything and talk only about kitehill and that there will ever be any new players or players changing profession or lvling alts or wanting any other experience than afk-to-maxlvl. I don't take that stance and I never did.

[sannz]

What I am - so far - missing are changes to our AoE Nukes.

I have always been a bit disappointed about the radius and dmg of our LE nukes. Seeing as the dmg part itself is unaffected by our +dmg and +%nanodmg, i'd love to either see the dmg ranges improved, or the recharge reduced by half.
The radius could probably use a boost, too. Not too much, but going from 5m to 7,5m would not matter that much in pvp, but work nicely in pvm.

Also: The LE AoEs still have that annoying offensive focus... Begone with it...

[Vinkera]

My point being that NTs are too slow in their damage windup and never actually get the damage windup payoff, because others who don't need any windup just have better or more damage output just in general.



Constant as being constant in discussions on the topic, everything but endgame is disregarded by people who have obviously lost track of there being anything but the endgame. I guess the jaded standpoint is to just ignore everything and talk only about kitehill and that there will ever be any new players or players changing profession or lvling alts or wanting any other experience than afk-to-maxlvl. I don't take that stance and I never did.

Good points Masta, and you reminded me of another topic I meant to bring up.

I've always been disgusted with pretty much every aspect of SL nukes before IU, which makes actually playing an NT before 215ish simply not fun.

There are options like IEF, etc... But all Shadowlands nukes are pretty awful before Bimolecular Corrosion, and even that isn't anything worth bragging about either.

I wanted to review these, and suggest changes. I don't see why we can't have 2 second cast, 1 second recharge on all (some lower level nukes are 2/2, etc.) Also, the nano cost on them is insane. Even if a low level (say 60ish) NT had PNH and all available perks into nano regeneration, they would be completely out of nano in less than a minute. (Realistically, less than 30 seconds) casting cost needs to be reduced by a sizable amount on all of them below the 200+ level lock.

Also, the nano documents show lower iterations of GIVA, which is a no brainer. This definitely needs to happen, and even at lower levels. I'd say Spec 1 req on the lowest one is good, with tier requirements. This would be a good opportunity for that idea to really shine.

If you guys agree, and want to give input, I'd recommend referring to the nano documents as a guideline, and keep in mind the possibility of a self MC buff.

I'm curious to see any specifics if anyone has an opinion.

[nanoforcer]

I find the concept of the delayed nukes fun and gives way to a interesting "alpha" where you can cast it, stack up on perks + a regular nuke so everything hits at once, awsome burst damage.

I'de also like us to be able to cast all nukes at full def with a resonable nanoinit without it punishing us, and the offensive/def focus is just not needed imo.
Ai dots would be less of a pain if there was no cap/could insta them.

Self mc buff for various levels that's in the same line as mochams would be awsome, as per the nanodocs iirc.

[DarkerThanBlack]

Constant as being constant in discussions on the topic, everything but endgame is disregarded by people who have obviously lost track of there being anything but the endgame. I guess the jaded standpoint is to just ignore everything and talk only about kitehill and that there will ever be any new players or players changing profession or lvling alts or wanting any other experience than afk-to-maxlvl. I don't take that stance and I never did.

Everyone is a pretty bad generalization, in fact there's always threads running suggesting improvements to lowbie content as well. It's logical to focus on the more popular part of the game than on what's just a passing phase, for example there's 500 characters logged on at the moment and 300 of those are level 210+.

[Vinkera]

Everyone is a pretty bad generalization, in fact there's always threads running suggesting improvements to lowbie content as well. It's logical to focus on the more popular part of the game than on what's just a passing phase, for example there's 500 characters logged on at the moment and 300 of those are level 210+.

Fixing lowbies is very important, but I think making the 220's happy is top priority, myself.

[DarkerThanBlack]

Hey I'm all for everything getting improvements but since it took 10 years and 6(?) game director changes before things started getting done I'm glad at least somethings are changing. One step at a time ^^

[sannz]

Um.... guys? Is it intended that Damage-2-Nano (Nanobot Shelter, Nanobot Guard) and Reflect Shields (RRFE) actually stack now? As in Shelter no longer locking RRFE and such out?
It is quite OP right now with both of them running.

[nanoforcer]

Well seems fair to me with the crappy nanopool nerf

[Vinkera]

Ok, so one thing I've been thinking about how to solve is Nuke over equipping, and had a bit of a Jimmy Neutron moment today. The reason nukes are currently a broken mechanic for us is simply if we are 1 point short of the requirement, we can't use them, and have to scramble to find a lower version. If someone is 1 point short of using their weapon, they can obviously still shoot it just fine.

Let's be clear, I don't want this for buffs, or RK Nukes, etc. Our ability to not be literally defenseless vs an MP or Trader, or mob that can use plunder/divest/dominate/crown is a problem though.

What I'm suggesting is we make use of the level locks and the recent push for tiered nano programs in a different way than intended. I think SL nukes, currently are the only candidate for this, due to level locks preventing abuse of this idea.

So, the typical weapon needs 80% skill or better to be 100% effective. If look at "Acidic Droplets" currently, it requires 901 MC to cast. 900 means no-go.

Here's a link to it on Auno for reference:
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=218118

If we add some of the same conditional aspects that GIVA has but in reverse, we could make it look like this:

Modifier:
On Target:
Damage 1311-2342
(These values could be hidden. Seems like it could be confusing to have it visible. Maybe just adding a small note about Nuke OE to the bottom of the nuke description is enough)
Damage 1311-2342 if on Caster:Matter Crea below 901 and Matter Crea from 721 (to make up for 100-80% skill requirement)
Damage 983-1874 if on Caster:Matter Crea below 721 and Matter Crea from 541 (79-60% skill, 75% OE)
Damage 656-1171 if on Caster:Matter Crea below 541 and Matter Crea from 360 (59-40% skill, 50% OE)
Damage 328-586 if on Caster:Matter Crea below 360 and Matter Crea from 180 (39-20% skill, 25% OE)
Damage 0-1 if on Caster:Matter Crea below 180 (19-0%, 0% OE. Still fires, but totally worthless)

So, if we add these values, any SL nuke would still fire even if we had 1 MC. The point is, every other weapon using profession enjoys this benefit and we don't. I said it before, but it should be reitterated, this should not be for buffs and debuffs. Other professions with nukes don't really need this, as nukes aren't their primary offense. Ours is, and losing even the needed 1 MC to cast them makes us unable to defend ourselves.

I don't see how this could even be exploited for SL nukes, since we're level locked into them already. I guess it could allow us to be more lax in twinking, but considering our primary attacking skill is 3 for 3 implanted by treatment implants (not necessarily treatment cluster conflicts, but still the same implant) it is therefore more difficult to twink, and literally impossible to twink as hard as other skills. An indirect benefit, but still a good one to have.

I've thought about this long and hard, and I really don't see an easier way to make it work. What do you guys think... Make sense?

[deadlyaura]

Snip

I completely agree with this.

Even pet classes can still use their pets 100% effectively while drained. Although the pets will not take any NEW commands below 80% skill, they will continue to attack the same target. So, overall, your damage output would go down, but you aren't completely worthless. Whereas, an NT has NO OPTION when it comes to this since they are required to be at 100%.

[Nanofat]

I've thought about this long and hard, and I really don't see an easier way to make it work. What do you guys think... Make sense?

In principle it sounds good. Would you want to do something similar our other nano-lines like root and calm? Possibly landing lower durations with less skill than required?

Also - I would suggest that if this sort of thing is going to allow us to perform while debuffed more easily; at the lower skill OE levels here be some visual indication that we've got insufficient skill to fully perform the nano.
You could dump text into chat as the nano executes, but I think some kind of visual effect on the casting NT would be better (possibly only client-side to avoid to readily giving the fact away to enemies), perhaps "sparks" or some smoke.

This would give us a clear indication that we're currently operating at a sub-optimum level.

[DarkerThanBlack]

perhaps "sparks" or some smoke.

This reminded me. Go to a 100% zone (pande garden for example), target an npc and spam constant barrage or candycane. Your mind will be blown

[Izgimmy]

[...] The point is, every other weapon using profession enjoys this [OE] benefit and we don't. [...]

A very interesting idea, indeed. I think this would work well for our Lost Eden nanos too. I can easily see doubles, triples and LE AoEs scale using a similar formula. And perhaps we could even use that formula to reverse the logic behind our nano resist debuff line (Constant Barrage, Overwhelming Storm and Incessant Flurry). We could start directly at level III if there is no debuff present, and then move down the line if there is, i.e. decrease the effect depending on the size of the debuff. This might be overpowered though, with just one cast for full effect, but a compromise might be to remove the damage from the nano and make it a pure nano resist debuff nano. But I don't know, just brainstorming here

[Vinkera]

In principle it sounds good. Would you want to do something similar our other nano-lines like root and calm? Possibly landing lower durations with less skill than required?

Also - I would suggest that if this sort of thing is going to allow us to perform while debuffed more easily; at the lower skill OE levels here be some visual indication that we've got insufficient skill to fully perform the nano.
You could dump text into chat as the nano executes, but I think some kind of visual effect on the casting NT would be better (possibly only client-side to avoid to readily giving the fact away to enemies), perhaps "sparks" or some smoke.

This would give us a clear indication that we're currently operating at a sub-optimum level.

If changes to roots / calms are in the cards for all other professions that have them, then we would get that by default.

My point here is to balance us with weapon using professions. Currently, they don't get any visual notification unless they have the wear window open on the Wep tab. Although, we wouldn't have even that currently, debuffs in 18.7 have received a red color when running in your NCU, which should give you an idea, at least. In PVP, if you're dueling a trader or MP, you should also expect 100% that they will attempt to debuff you.

I'm also looking at changes I request in terms of developer resources. I do like your idea, but I don't know what kind of time / difficulty it would be to make those adjustments. Maybe it's possible to simply make the nuke icon tint red on the hotbar? Again, I don't know the amount of work for those little things.

I have a bone to pick about traders still, though. Why they get a Nano Resist debuff with 10% resistance check is beyond me. It debuffs considerably less than Constant Barrage, but that doesn't change the fact that it could punch right through our strongest defensive skill with no issue. It also makes me wonder why Constant Barrage has a higher resistnace check than our nukes. It should be lower, and the Trader's should be much higher. If GIVA and IU are brought to the same resistance level at 53%, however, I can see how Constant Barrage might be mostly left to an option for PVP, unless blinds, etc are required for PVM situationally.

I assume our Nanobot Guard was added quickly, so I won't give Michi a hard time about it, but the "Perform on Terminate" action is different for Traders also. Ours will wipe your nanopool to 1, 5 times, with 1 second delay. Traders simply have "Set nano points to 0" without multiple wipes following it. Those actions should identical to each other, and setting nano to 0 is probably the best option. If we attempted to use our nano heal, but that terminate function had even 1 more tick, then we've wasted it and are locked out for 2 mins. It just looks like another funny mechanic for players to stumble over.

This reminded me. Go to a 100% zone (pande garden for example), target an npc and spam constant barrage or candycane. Your mind will be blown

LOL... I know what you mean. If anyone else hasn't done this, please do for a good laugh

[Vinkera]

Guys, I made a new thread to outline all of the suggestions we've made so far. Have a look and tell me here if I've missed anything.

Thanks!

[DarkerThanBlack]

Guys, I made a new thread to outline all of the suggestions we've made so far. Have a look and tell me here if I've missed anything.

Thanks!

Blinds:

• Remove the blackened screen component
• Remove AAO resist items or significantly lower their AAO debuff resistance bonuses, that were a horrible band-aid fix to the black screen component that should have been removed in the first place
• Remove lockout on optic plague

Roots:

• Reduce global cooldown to 1 second (same time it takes to use a perk , item, or nano to get out of a root), add line cooldown of 5 seconds

Stuns (well there's only one really):

• Reduce global cooldown to 1 second (same time it takes to use an item to get out of a stun), add line cooldown of 10 seconds

[Vinkera]

Blinds:

• Remove the blackened screen component
• Remove AAO resist items or significantly lower their AAO debuff resistance bonuses, that were a horrible band-aid fix to the black screen component that should have been removed in the first place
• Remove lockout on optic plague

Roots:

• Reduce global cooldown to 1 second (same time it takes to use a perk , item, or nano to get out of a root), add line cooldown of 5 seconds

Stuns (well there's only one really):

• Reduce global cooldown to 1 second (same time it takes to use an item to get out of a stun), add line cooldown of 10 seconds

These items have had very little discussion, and I want to make sure we all agree before I post them in the new thread.

The blinds, kind of a bummer. As annoying as the black screen is, it's actually pretty clever. Maybe if it fogged your vision as opposed to blackening it, that mechanic would be better. When I say fog, think of the Borealis pumpkin head raid thing. You could still see, but it was tricky and you couldn't see really far. Sharptony has a video of it if you aren't sure what I mean. That would be neat I think. If everyone hates the blind effect completely, I conceed :P

Roots, I like it. That is another awful cool down I somehow forgot about. I'm sure crats would be happy for this also, considering the changes made to their snares.

Stuns make sense. It's another super long, debilitating cool down for us, making it useless for the most part. From a balance perspective, are there professions (including NT's) that would be made too OP by this? I honestly don't know. Stuns are very powerful, and I want to be cautious when suggesting changes to them.