18.7.0.21 Testlive notes.

[DigitalBath]

I disagree with the removal of the black screen effect as a whole. It's something I like about AO and dislike on other games.. Blinds are Blinds. The Hud items don't fully protect people from blinds either (or from UBT) so it's a failed band-aid "fix" (don't think it was ever meant to fix the black screen stuff) at best. 100% resistance seems to not provide 100% resistance at all, go figure

IF and only IF there's enough people (especially NT players) interested in modifying this, a heavy fog effect could work, but it'd have to be heavy enough to partly disrupt gameplay otherwise blinds lost a good chunk of what they're used for in PvP. It should also come with a boost to the AAO amount proportional to the loss of disorientation that comes with the change..

The cooldown never made any sense as it's not that much of a powerful AAO debuff. Engineers get a much better one without any such drawbacks, for example.

I generally agree on the Roots and Stuns bit though it seems more like "cleaning things up a little" than actually doing any greater good. 5 seconds line CD on roots seems a bit too much but I would need to actually test it to be sure if it's actually bad or just sounds bad.

[Vinkera]

Speaking of blinds, I thought engineer blinds got nerfed, but still appear to be over -1200 AAO.

Now, I'm not trying to suggest they should, but that figure makes ours look pretty crappy by comparison.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I disagree with the removal of the black screen effect as a whole. It's something I like about AO and dislike on other games.. Blinds are Blinds. The Hud items don't fully protect people from blinds either (or from UBT) so it's a failed band-aid "fix" (don't think it was ever meant to fix the black screen stuff) at best. 100% resistance seems to not provide 100% resistance at all, go figure.

Actually they do provide 110% (lol) resistance to NT blinds and ring blind (and engi blind? idk), but yes doesn't help against perk blinds. Vision is an integral part of pvp and having your screen go completely black for longer periods of time is simply ridiculous and very frustrating. It's broken because players are either completely immune to the effect of an entire NT nanoline or simply helpless in places like the battlestation where there is no functional minimap to navigate with while blinded. Blurred screen would be okay but completely black is just broken old design. Updated (increased) -aao debuff value to the aoe blind would be okay too, it's effect has been the same since release while character attack rating and damage for all professions have increased significantly over the years. -350 AAO would be decent.

[DigitalBath]

Last I checked, the 110% resistance doesn't actually work. This applies to both the Ancient Vision and the Ancient Speed HUD items. They granted "110%" resistance, but UBT and blinds still landed (there was even a fairly heated forum post about this by Dajam, if my memory isn't failing me..).

Was it changed very recently? I'll give it a go on 18.7 soon to be sure.

I disagree on it being "ridiculous and very frustrating", I find it fitting and no more annoying than many other mechanics this game has in PvP. Different opinions, especially on what "broken" means in a game (or any piece of software).

[DarkerThanBlack]

Last I checked, the 110% resistance doesn't actually work. This applies to both the Ancient Vision and the Ancient Speed HUD items. They granted "110%" resistance, but UBT and blinds still landed (there was even a fairly heated forum post about this by Dajam, if my memory isn't failing me..).

For me it always worked just fine, don't know if it was changed recently.

I disagree on it being "ridiculous and very frustrating", I find it fitting and no more annoying than many other mechanics this game has in PvP. Different opinions, especially on what "broken" means in a game (or any piece of software).

Well many crats disagree with getting their total init debuff amount lowered despite being able to debuff everything to oblivion to the point of making pvm gamebreakingly easy and not exactly fun in pvp either. It's fairly common for players to find it hard to acknowledge a part of their profession's toolset being broken overpowered.

[DigitalBath]

Well many crats disagree with getting their total init debuff amount lowered despite being able to debuff everything to oblivion to the point of making pvm gamebreakingly easy and not exactly fun in pvp either. It's fairly common for players to find it hard to acknowledge a part of their profession's toolset being broken overpowered.

I assure you that's not the case. I'm very often on the receiving end of those blinds as well (I don't exclusively play NT.. and have almost as many hours put in on Doctor, for example).
Your assumption is quite revealing, though.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I assure you that's not the case. I'm very often on the receiving end of those blinds as well (I don't exclusively play NT.. and have almost as many hours put in on Doctor, for example).
Your assumption is quite revealing, though.

Ah yes, doctors who have 4 blind removal perks on 2 minute cooldown each, as opposed to every other profession having zero (ok keeper has one!). Besides that doctors are generally the least affected by blinds in pvp because blinds don't prevent them for pressing F1 and spamming BI/ICH which is what a doc does 90% of the time.

[Vinkera]

Well, I like the idea that was put into blinds, but screen getting foggy sounds much better than screen going pitch black.

We've all been blinded by trash mobs in the subway and such, and the shocking surprise the first time it happened. There clearly are mechanics in the game to make visuals foggy as opposed to black, though.

If you tack in faster roots due to recharge lowering (like you originally said DTB), limiting a players ability to see very far can be strong enough I think.

[DigitalBath]

Ah yes, doctors who have 4 blind removal perks on 2 minute cooldown each, as opposed to every other profession having zero (ok keeper has one!). Besides that doctors are generally the least affected by blinds in pvp because blinds don't prevent them for pressing F1 and spamming BI/ICH which is what a doc does 90% of the time.

I gave you one example for perspective, you failed to get the point. I could go on about it with my soldier, fixer, shade or any other of my characters, but this argument is pointless. It's just you not being able to accept something simple: You have a different opinion. Yours is as valid as anyone else's, no more, no less. I'll stop it here and focus on the topic at hand.

All this silly talk reminds me of one thing to discuss on these notes, though....

There's a perkline that disables a NT's offensive toolset entirely in PvP while not really providing an effective enough downside on some of the professions that choose to use it. It's not broken, but it IS somewhat badly designed, as it's the equivalent of having a line that makes all weapon and perk damage miss 100% of the time, but you can't cast some of your highest nanos because of it.. (let's all imagine, for a second, a NT using Jobe Doubles but fully immune to weapon/perk damage.. hah.. what a joke.. right?)

NR does affect other professions (traders can't drain.. doctors can't dot/ubt, etc), but they still have AS and other cute things to do while running. NT's can effectively do nothing against someone who perks Notum Repulsor high enough.

Should we tackle that at some point or we're just going to let that slide? Thoughts?

EDIT: Remembered one more thing! Are we doing something about our AoE line? It kind of "caps too early" at Volcanic Eruption as far as "best AoE DD" goes and that seems wrong since it's something we can cast VERY early with some moderate twinking.
What do other NT's feel about this? I know Sannz wanted an update on this as well but I didn't really get much input from anyone else.

[DarkerThanBlack]

I know it's your very simple perspective, it's also pretty biased or simply made from lack of common sense and/or experience. My suggestions are to fix what's broken while you think it's "cool" that someone is almost or completely helpless staring at a black screen until they die. Do you think it's cool that program overload had a chance for 1 minute self NSD? I bet the answer is no.

Edit: btw what timezone do you play in, because I literally never saw any of the characters listed in your description in the battlestation.

[Vinkera]

There's a perkline that disables a NT's offensive toolset entirely in PvP while not really providing an effective enough downside on some of the professions that choose to use it. It's not broken, but it IS somewhat badly designed, as it's the equivalent of having a line that makes all weapon and perk damage miss 100% of the time, but you can't cast some of your highest nanos because of it.. (let's all imagine, for a second, a NT using Jobe Doubles but fully immune to weapon/perk damage.. hah.. what a joke.. right?)

NR does affect other professions (traders can't drain.. doctors can't dot/ubt, etc), but they still have AS and other cute things to do while running. NT's can effectively do nothing against someone who perks Notum Repulsor high enough.

Should we tackle that at some point or we're just going to let that slide? Thoughts?

Ah yes.. Notum Repulsor...

I was thinking about that yesterday morning, but unfortunately I can't think of a suggestion that won't make everyone hate me :P

The only thing I can think of is limiting it to NR2 only, or give NT's the ability to debuff NR by 20k completely unchecked.

The first sounds quite a bit better than the second, though.

But, I'd love a new perkline that gives 20k evades and reduces weapon skills by 8k. I'd be totally cool with that (sarcasm detected!!)

[DigitalBath]

I know it's your very simple perspective, it's also pretty biased or simply made from lack of common sense and/or experience. My suggestions are to fix what's broken while you think it's "cool" that someone is almost or completely helpless staring at a black screen until they die. Do you think it's cool that program overload had a chance for 1 minute self NSD? I bet the answer is no.

Edit: btw what timezone do you play in, because I literally never saw any of the characters listed in your description in the battlestation.

You have a different opinion. Yours is as valid as anyone else's, no more, no less. I'll stop it here and focus on the topic at hand.

Hope this is clear enough? Let's cut the ad hominem too, it doesn't help you and doesn't belong in this thread.

[DigitalBath]

Ah yes.. Notum Repulsor...

I was thinking about that yesterday morning, but unfortunately I can't think of a suggestion that won't make everyone hate me :P

The only thing I can think of is limiting it to NR2 only, or give NT's the ability to debuff NR by 20k completely unchecked.

The first sounds quite a bit better than the second, though.

But, I'd love a new perkline that gives 20k evades and reduces weapon skills by 8k. I'd be totally cool with that (sarcasm detected!!)

Maybe have a talk with Michi without any specific idea in mind to gauge his opinion on the subject? Or I will if I find the time
Don't mind being slaughtered.

Also, 20k Evades and spec absorbs! Those pesky AS's!

[DarkerThanBlack]

Hope this is clear enough? Let's cut the ad hominem too, it doesn't help you and doesn't belong in this thread.

That's a false assumption thought as not all opinions are right. Mine is however because it's not only an opinion, they're facts. The ridiculousness of blinds was very much a hot topic ever since the battlestation with no functional minimap was introduced, even more so when they were made tighter by closing down the hallways inside with invisible walls. It's exactly why the blind resist items were created, as a poor band-aid fix to an actual problem because some of the previous game directors/developers were genuine trolls that never addressed problems according to suggestions by experienced players but made their own calls that made no sense. Now that michizure took a completely different approach and actually takes player made suggestions into consideration I'm hoping this nanoline can be fixed as well, both the ridiculous black screen and the fact that individuals can be completely immune to it.

[DigitalBath]

That's a false assumption thought as not all opinions are right. Mine is however because it's not only an opinion, they're facts. The ridiculousness of blinds was very much a hot topic ever since the battlestation with no functional minimap was introduced, even more so when they were made tighter by closing down the hallways inside with invisible walls. It's exactly why the blind resist items were created, as a poor band-aid fix to an actual problem because some of the previous game directors/developers were genuine trolls that never addressed problems according to suggestions by experienced players but made their own calls that made no sense. Now that michizure took a completely different approach and actually takes player made suggestions into consideration I'm hoping this nanoline can be fixed as well, both the ridiculous black screen and the fact that individuals can be completely immune to it.

You have a different opinion. Yours is as valid as anyone else's, no more, no less. I'll stop it here and focus on the topic at hand.

Let's try this again... you're just making your points less valid by making further assumptions and ad hominem. Stop it.
Note: I'll just ignore posts trying to further this line of conversation from you. If it helps you, pretend I replied to each and every one with the my quote above. I'd do it but this thread deserves better.

[Vinkera]

OK... Let me make this clear.

I encourage healthy debate due to difference of opinions. If it starts to derail the thread however, I will delete any post I see fit.

Disagreement is fine, arguing doesn't do any good.

[Vinkera]

Ok, let's take one last look at blinds...

Does changing the black screen to fog screen sound reasonable?

and..

These vision preservation things. Can they be made to protect vision, but not the AAO debuff? I think a lot less people would take advantage of the 110% resistance if that were the case.

[DigitalBath]

Ok, let's take one last look at blinds...

Does changing the black screen to fog screen sound reasonable?

and..

These vision preservation things. Can they be made to protect vision, but not the AAO debuff? I think a lot less people would take advantage of the 110% resistance if that were the case.

As far as I see it.. I'd say that it depends on how heavy the fog is and we should likely look at both an increase in the AAO debuff value and a removal of the cooldown on our top blind. It would actually improve PvM solo somewhat as well, which makes sense..

[Vinkera]

As far as I see it.. I'd say that it depends on how heavy the fog is and we should likely look at both an increase in the AAO debuff value and a removal of the cooldown on our top blind. It would actually improve PvM solo somewhat as well, which makes sense..

Admittedly, the Vision Preservation suggestion is one of the few I haven't put much thought into and just lobbed out there :P

Here's what the fog mechanic looks like that I'm thinking:

http://youtu.be/PRApjwGz4NE?t=6m15s

You can still see, but not far. It would give the person blinding a legitimate chance to run if needed, but the target's screen isn't totally blackened out.

[DarkerThanBlack]

Ok, let's take one last look at blinds...

Does changing the black screen to fog screen sound reasonable?

Literally anything is more reasonable than having your screen turn off until decon. The video example is good since it dims vision enough not to be able to see what's coming from range but still lets you see your character and those very near.

These vision preservation things. Can they be made to protect vision, but not the AAO debuff? I think a lot less people would take advantage of the 110% resistance if that were the case.

I don't think there would be a point in that as the vision protection was there only to counter the black screen. Making vision foggy/blurry wouldn't be as broken and wouldn't require such drastic measures.