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Thread: Monthly Development Update - February 2015 (The Storm)

  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Wakizaka View Post
    And why can't an Agent have some decent DD with the weapon they are supposed to be using ?
    Never said they couldn't. But it doesn't change the fact that they can still do good DPM atm.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
    Feel free to contact me via PM or in-game.

    Raggy - 220 Bureaucrat || Raggeh - 220 Fixer | Back as 'Raggys' - Shade for the time being. | Nuclei - 217 Nanotechnician || Nanobiology - 214 Doctor

    Tip #743: As noted in Tip #244, tea bags have an infinite variety of uses. However, there's always one jerk who will want to give you crap over drinking tea. Particularly if in a new town, use this as an opportunity to assert yourself. Any drunken idiot can win a bar fight. It takes a real man to win a bar fight while enjoying a cup of Earl Grey.

  2. #142
    Ok look, I was going to type a long endless post like I tend to, but I'm exhausted from this, it feels like trying to argue that a pile of tires is indeed not a car while people stand around asking how much horsepower it has and what MPG it gets.

    The whole "agents can tank with a doctor and reflects and init debuffs and a keeper and etc." argument is moot. Anyone can tank with enough OSBs and healing thrown at them.

    FP:MA does get a 10k taunt, the heals are far from usable though. FP:Soldier's best taunt is still 1.6k.

    That every profession should "be the same" is the opposite of what I'm saying. Almost every profession has enough flexibility to have a defensive setup and a damage setup, often going further to have a PvP setup and a PvM setup, many of them get more complex than this with an endless rainbow of gear and perk setups and weapon choices.

    Am I wrong in thinking that Agents are not that bad off? Sure they still need some work but saying they can't doing anything but do bad DD and suck at everything else shows you either don't know how to make agents work or you can't see what agents can use with current changes.
    I've had an agent at 220 for several years, and he is (or was) focused on PvM. I don't have all the top raid gear or anything, but I can do pretty well for myself, my other professions do very well once I set them up and I can solo more stuff than most people I know. I've tried pretty much everything on my agent short of throwing 10 billion credits at him willy-nilly, and he just doesn't do anything. I can put full evades/hp gear on him and go enfo and he can pull hate sure but he just goes squish when he does. If I throw all the damage gear I have on his damage still pales in comparison to anyone else, especially my bureaucrat who's sitting happy in 100% evades gear. Like I said earlier, if there's some way to make agent work, I'd really like to know it, because for all my effort and experimentation I sure haven't found it.

    With 18.7, if there's a big change I must have missed it. I see the gan'kar rifle, and FPs are going to get quite a bit nicer for leveling agents, but I haven't seen any big upsets at 220 that are going to be game-changers. The effectiveness of almost all FPs still caps out at the top RK nanos, which even before you account for the lack of perks, gear, research and whatever else makes the other profession work is really underwhelming. There are far too many professions that basically completely change when they get new nanos at 201+ or from the DB quest, this cripples them, but it also cripples agent FP: them. Are things going to get better for agents? Definitely. Is it going to be enough for me to ever feel good about playing my agent, despite how much I love the concept of the profession and want to love him? I doubt it. Would even 450k damage change that? For some people sure, for me it wouldn't, I'd rather have a more robust profession whose flexibility reflects that of his toolset.

    I really don't understand why people hate so much the idea of an agent who could tank in FP: Enfo, heal in FP: Doc, evade in FP: Fixer, or deal damage in FP:Agent. Even if they were extremely proficient in one or all of those, it would still require a truckful of gear swaps, be prohibitively expensive, and still be less effective than any given profession. And if they can't do that, which they can't right now, why shouldn't they be good at something?

    Seriously. Why?

  3. #143
    Agents are the clown of ao that is why we can't have nice things. Funcom has treated us as such for years they have even festered the hate. Its a tradition now like the way wow handled paladins until a few years ago. LOL RET. We are ao's comedic relief a loser so bad no amount of work or effort on a players part will ever improve them.

    The illusion is some people think they can be fixed and buy into it. I don't better to delete and end the suffering.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Litestrider View Post
    The whole "agents can tank with a doctor and reflects and init debuffs and a keeper and etc." argument is moot. Anyone can tank with enough OSBs and healing thrown at them.
    Baby steps, now we just gotta convince you that agents are not bottom of the barrel when it comes to tanking but instead somewhere in the middle which is not a bad thing tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litestrider View Post
    That every profession should "be the same" is the opposite of what I'm saying. Almost every profession has enough flexibility to have a defensive setup and a damage setup, often going further to have a PvP setup and a PvM setup, many of them get more complex than this with an endless rainbow of gear and perk setups and weapon choices.
    I said "every profession is at the or should be the same level as the rest in all regards" not "be the same". What I mean't by "same level in all regards" was all professions performing at the same level in tanking/DD/support which I'm kinda against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litestrider View Post
    I've had an agent at 220 for several years, and he is (or was) focused on PvM. I don't have all the top raid gear or anything, but I can do pretty well for myself, my other professions do very well once I set them up and I can solo more stuff than most people I know. I've tried pretty much everything on my agent short of throwing 10 billion credits at him willy-nilly, and he just doesn't do anything. I can put full evades/hp gear on him and go enfo and he can pull hate sure but he just goes squish when he does. If I throw all the damage gear I have on his damage still pales in comparison to anyone else, especially my bureaucrat who's sitting happy in 100% evades gear. Like I said earlier, if there's some way to make agent work, I'd really like to know it, because for all my effort and experimentation I sure haven't found it.
    The problem is you're still thinking about live, you can only compare using live if nothing has changed.
    Want to go Def/HP setup and pull agg? Slap on a 11k HP/11k AC morph + FP MA,
    DD setup with acceptable HP? use Mongo's Leviathan + FP adv with Sabretooth morph while still having a CH, small heals and Frenzy of Fur,
    Bulky support healer? 11k HP/11k AC morph + FP Doc *bonus*> UBT now lands on bosses and mobs that resisted it before,
    Decent DD with AR debuffs to help evade? Sabretooth morph + FP engi for blind
    Did I miss anything?

    Changes are still coming for all profs but agents are alot better off now than they are on live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litestrider View Post
    I really don't understand why people hate so much the idea of an agent who could tank in FP: Enfo, heal in FP: Doc, evade in FP: Fixer
    Nobody does you just convinced yourself that people do it seems.

  5. #145
    So 20 minutes buffing and then fp doc to be good?

    I'll believe it when I see agent in content, trying to OD me on dyna, or someting...
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    Baby steps, now we just gotta convince you that agents are not bottom of the barrel when it comes to tanking but instead somewhere in the middle which is not a bad thing tbh.
    You seem to be assuming you proved something here.

    The problem is you're still thinking about live
    The real problem is that every time I say something about live, someone counters with "well on test...", if I go on to talk about test someone replies with "well on live..." and it's a neverending cycle that accomplishes absolutely nothing.


    Nobody does you just convinced yourself that people do it seems.
    Then why is there so much resistance every single time the idea of making FP usable is brought up?

  7. #147
    Agent's aren't as nerf as everyone claims on LIVE.

    Agent's aren't even close to nerf on test.

    Just like other proccy profs, agents will benefit from the most single hits/minute due to proc chance. therefore, agents have OTHER setups at their disposal to make decent damage. Whoever complains about this I recommend playing an MA/fixer/sold and see how you like doing DD in only 1 setup.

    /thread

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    @ Esssch sometimes I wonder about you man. Engi>agent for tanking? On what world is this even something I dunno, passes the "can I force my fingers to type these words test"...

    At least agents have Mongo, and will produce a lot more individual aggro than an engi with pistol perks and DVP... wtf man.
    Someone owes me an apology

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    Someone owes me an apology
    sorry for wondering about you. I should have known it when I read it. :P

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    Ofc, If you have a better tank option in your team go for it. Wasn't really what I was going on about tho, was mostly making a point that Agent are not so nerfed that they require being removed entirely or getting absurd perks like Dof or Bio cocoon because a shade with 4k+ evades without DoF/Limber/ES up has them.

    Don't get me wrong Agents could use a boost in pvm(scary enough in pvp as it is already tho) but I'm more than certain that most of what Agent needs can be obtained from updating what they can use with their toolset and some rifle DD.
    Ya, I absolutely agree. Few subtle tweaks should do the trick.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    "Supposed to be using" is not the term I would use, Affinity is the term I would use as you could say Solds are "supposed" to use Assault Rifle due to more support but they have affinity with several other weapon types also due to their toolset.
    Agents have the main options of Bow/Rifle and support for MA/pistol/grenade thru FPs and IP with everything else requiring more gear to make them work.
    Here I disagree. Soldiers have a couple weapons which are useful in PvM and PvP, and can easily move between them. Agent without rifle is pretty garbage.
    Not saying it can't be done, but making a MA or pistol agent means you're utter crud for anything else.

    Edit #2:
    Not directed at anyone in particular, but Agents on live are pretty trash for PvM DD.
    Last edited by srompu; Mar 27th, 2015 at 11:03:18.

  11. #151
    You seem to be actually talking sense, Srompu, thanks

    I don't agree with the "few" part of the subtle tweaks, but that's mostly because pretty much every false profession including base agent each needs a few subtle tweaks, and it adds up. I imagine Michi looks over at a document concerning agent each day and just sighs.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post
    Here I disagree. Soldiers have a couple weapons which are useful in PvM and PvP, and can easily move between them. Agent without rifle is pretty garbage.
    Not saying it can't be done, but making a MA or pistol agent means you're utter crud for anything else.

    Edit #2:
    Not directed at anyone in particular, but Agents on live are pretty trash for PvM DD.
    Solds was probably not the best example for me as they and Enfs are built around using more than 1 weapon type without issue, Agents not in Rifle/Bow(test changes) setup won't perform well at all in PVP but I'm not gonna try and tell people they do that would be stupid lol. Hearing "MA Agent" should almost tell you there alone that it was not made for pvp at all.

    Agents are not the only prof in the this boat tho, MA docs are great in PVM but ungodly bad in PVP, Traders can make other setups do well in PVM but won't dare do PVP without their shotguns(watched a remod trader duel on test and it was prolly the worse pvp setup I've seen so far no offence to who was using it), MA mixed shade mostly only works in PVM and requires MR to even work in pvp, MA is stuck with MA/bow, Fixer only has SMG etc.
    I'll eat my own words when I see a non-SMG Fixer start beating people in duels heh.

    Live rifle DPM for agents is pretty bad I won't argue that but non-rifle setups can push 300k DPM if they go for it, Not amazing for the work put in prolly but it's not bad either, shades only push 300-310k DPM in a mixed HP/Def/Dmg setup and no one argues that shade is a true DD prof.
    Move to test and Rifle is pushing more and faster DD(Gankar could use more crit and look more like ofab tiger/chaos of the xan, only agents and solds *barely* can equip it anyways) and non-rifle setups like my shotgun Agent ****s on Shade DD np.
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 27th, 2015 at 12:42:35.

  13. #153
    The main problem I have with your comparison, Rock, is that most of the other professions don't give up a huge portion of their toolset to go with those unorthodox weapons. They give up PvP for PvM, and I personally think that's fine, tradeoffs like that is one of the things that makes this game great! The big issue with agent compared to the others is the way those weapons lock you into one or two FPs. A MA doc, remod trader or triple-wield shade might have to make compromises in gear, implants, IP and perks, but they can still heal, drain, and pump out damage respectively.

    Most of the unorthodox agent setups rely on FP: Trader in order to work because of AR issues. One or two others sometimes work, I believe FP: Soldier was mentioned with the dual shotgun build this all started over. But a rifle agent will be free to use FP: whatever he wants. Considering that agent already makes the same gear/implant/perk/IP sacrifices the other professions do on top of this, I think this is too much to ask and something should be changed. Whether that thing is changes to the FP system, or introduction of a better bow for PvM, multiple AS, or whatever.

    Using MA on agent is a particularly absurd case. You have to use slayerdroid transference from engineer, then various buffs from MA, and then do your actual fighting as FP:Trader. The sheer amount of buff juggling and downtime involved in the setup was itself enough to stop me from going for it on live, let alone the fact that you no longer really have the option to use the other FPs in a serious or semi-serious situation. The exotic gear/perk/ip setups and poor PvP performance, like what trader and doc have to deal with, are a distant third in terms of concerns, and yet those alone are enough for most traders and docs to stick with the standard weapons.

  14. #154
    The choice of going with non-rifle setups does come with a steep price of freedom but the few that chose that route made it knowing the costs, I'm certainly not against improving other weapon choices and none of what I said suggested that I was but our conversation kinda went downhill pretty fast heh(I can be stubborn sometimes but you also jumped the gun about my comparisons before so it's even) but we gotta go about it this way otherwise we will just either overlook some issues, not point out certain problems,give up on a prof or wildly throw around suggestions without any constructive criticism. Hopefully no hard feelings after this.

    One of the problems to alternate setups is IP, it's weird when every weapon skill besides Sneak Attack is blue and weapons types that go well with Agents are dark blue like Shotgun(crit prof) and Assault Rifle(closest to rifle) with weird weapon choices like 1HB and grenade being easier to IP than even bow (1HB=1.6 ip per point, Bow=2 ip per point). IP could definitely use a look at as I and I'm sure others wouldn't mind MA/1HE/1HB going dark blue in exchange for better Ranged weapon IP for several skills.

    The other one I find is perks for other weapons, currently on my Shotgun agent I have 4 perks just sitting on nano doctorate just to have them used up and willing to unperk up to 4 more if needed so "partial" access to perklines like Shotgun mastery,Pistol Mastery(might be unpopular to some but you can't use troa'ler as a reason), more Power Up access and Heavy Ranged would help alleviate AR problems when combined with more weapon buff access. This is up for argument ofc but I mainly suggest it as a way to help out other options for pvm without being too big of a change and easy enough to implement.

    Example:Agent decides to go RE(I know it lacks weapons but it's a good example due to bad trickle) and is able to IP it at 2 IP per skill, raise it by 935 (160 more than currently), access still to RE buffs and Power Up to 7-8 with http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=199806 as an example setup (ignore weapons and expensive stuff) RE would end up at 2.5k ish AR or 2.6k with sabre morph. Won't say its "good" AR but its a step in the right direction I feel but I'm open to suggestions or other possibilities.

    *IP/Shotgun Mastery 6-7/Swiss Cheese would seriously help my shotgun agent as I could hit 2.7k+ AR without FP trader which is more than enough for PVM. It wont match rifle in terms of def/hp/AR but access to FP sold, 2.7k AR and a more lax setup is more than enough for me.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    it's even
    Agreed

    I believe I quote the traders when I say #nogreenskills. Agent's got at least some green skills, but especially when you start talking non-rifle builds the amount of benefit is dubious. Particularly annoying is how much FP forces them to rely on all of their oh-so-blue nanoskills. While I'm always pushing for more FP access, it will inevitably introduce even more problems as it forces agents to dump even more of their nonexistent free IP into that bottomless pit we call blue nano skills.

    As for perk support, I'd really, honestly love to see all the weapon perk lines just made general. I think it was a really bad decision on the part of the SL devs to try to restrict weapon choices so much, and it should be un-done as much as possible. If the existing perklines are considered too powerful, then rather than offering partial access (which I don't believe has ever been particularly satisfying for anyone), I think another full line should be introduced for all the professions that don't have access to the specific line. I just find it really annoying that so many professions use (or want to use) other weapons and yet can't perk them. The AI general perk lines by contrast were handled very well I feel.

    ...AR without FP trader which is more than enough for PVM
    If we're going to (finally) accept non-rifle weapons as a true possibility for agent, I think this is exactly what needs to happen. The AR on those weapons doesn't have to be good, it just has to be good enough for PvM, without FP: Trader or other FP buffs. Sure FP Trader, FP MA, FP Soldier or whatever might still be the best FP by a mile for a given weapon, but it shouldn't be mandatory just to function at a basic level, given that agent is making the same sacrifices as everyone else to go with a nonstandard weapon (arguably more I'd say since they're so hyperfocused on rifles).

  16. #156
    I guess agents have Green skills but Sneak attack is hard to count when you gotta IP a melee weapon for it and Agents don't really need to IP concealment anymore (if they ever did) due to perception nerf, in fact when I compare the 2 profs they almost the exact same except the dark blue and lighter blues are in different places. Trader wins by more than a mil IP tho due to how their nanoskills and evades are. Perception I'm not really sure about atm.

    Agreed on the IP problem due to FP, I end up leaving TimeSpace at just enough to self top drains and some just incase due to the gross dark blue IP ugh.
    I'm sure we can afford some more IP in nanoskills now tho as we don't need to max nano init anymore unless we want to for pvp due to -700+ nanoinits debuff removed from FP meaning a 220 sits at more than 1k without IP and Concealment since it's pretty pointless besides getting just enough for pvm (2k conceal at 220 without IP atm) as IPing it just for Advs feels like a waste of IP since only Advys in lizard morph pose any threat atm anyways due to HP(faster perks that match dmg + AS cut thru coon like soften butter). Even Aimed Shot can be skimped on if you don't mind less multipliers but still enough for 3x min since no perks check AS anymore and Gankar rifle has a better max dmg and crit. Others can be skimped ofc but those 3 come to mind for me.

    Seems we're in agreement with alternate weapon fixes more or less(issue on Perk access can be talked about easily as it's more simple)which is nice, we just need to get some solid numbers down otherwise Michi would end up having to guess up numbers himself and we know where rushed guessing can sometimes get us >"Garuk's"< not that Michi will do anything crazy like that at all ofc .*Since alot would have to be changed Michi would need more time than usual so giving him something to work with is good*
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 28th, 2015 at 03:06:55.

  17. #157
    epic changes mich. almost makes me want to come back...almost :P
    T O O N Z:
    Renamed (jeycihn) 220/30(so sexy, so Borealis...I miss it the most...still melee <3 thnx for all your help Scum!
    Giit 200/30 NM NT(THE most dangerous, and bitchy thing I ever created)
    Sixunder 158/21 NM Tra (158+SMG=Atomic bomb? Feather pillow? meh, depends on what mood she's in oO)
    Eightup 158/21 Opi Fix (perfect, maxed twink, definitive "FUN")
    Xerrrox 17X Opi Fix (GA4 fr00b...buff prostitute...reason to log in)
    Enjey 60/6 NM Eng (high maintenance OP'ness)
    Nanimated New NM Agent (no patience for it...sigh)
    Somethiing 200 Atrox Sold (potential x1k...not nearly enough "give a f*ck")
    P A R A D I S E ~&~ P A R A S I T E ~&~ B R O K E N ~&~ CCI ~&~ NOTHING PERSONAL

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWatr View Post
    epic changes mich. almost makes me want to come back...almost :P
    Damnit Jey, get back in game! Or at least log into Steam every now and then!

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by RedWatr View Post
    epic changes mich. almost makes me want to come back...almost :P
    A couple of days ago, I started thinking about AO again and I got curious about the multiboxing situation. (I left when FC said they supported it).

    So I noticed 2 things.

    1. Multiboxing is still accepted.
    2. AO doesn't work properly on my new PC. I couldn't find a way to get above 18-20 fps. Tried every rendering option to no avail. It makes no sense as my new PC is basically the same as my old PC, just more powerful.

    Oh well.
    Last edited by Wrangeline; Mar 28th, 2015 at 19:53:11.
    Veteran of Equilibrium

  20. #160
    Wrangeline, I had the same problem with my FPS. Instead of choosing the option with your graphics card name, have you tried the "Primary Card" option? I went from 20fps to 100.
    ....................................-Eridonis-
    ................-Sleighbells-................-Northpole-
    ....-Psyche-...............-Decembersky-...........-Karma-
    ...............-Winterbelle-.................-Snowing-
    .....................................-Graffiti-

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