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Thread: Monthly Development Update - February 2015 (The Storm)

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Krustyleet87 View Post
    From what it looks like - while you can swap morphs faster the buffs tied to each morph (dmg shield in dragon, AAD buff in wolf, crit buff in leet) have a lockout after entering the morph. It looks like you can't cast the buff until about 1 min after you have morphed. I haven't fully tested it yet but thats what it appears to be.

    Not sure if that is what you were going for or not but I thought I'd just throw that out there.
    That's exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen The calms are now only going to be usable in leet form. So this means you won't be able to deal with adds popping up once you've already begun a fight in any other form, because those are unique to Leet and you'd have to wait a whole minute to be able to cast them?

    That's absolutely awful.

    Ophiuchus : 220/30/80 HAHA etc
    Nahuatl
    :: 220/30/80 Melee 4lyfe
    Khurkh :: 220/30/80 healtankpew
    Transcendence
    Msanthropic
    : 210/26/60 nanostab
    Spidershiva :: 165/23/42 kite? eh?
    Silentmotion
    : 150/20/42 tankthink
    The Union

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiuchus View Post
    That's exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen The calms are now only going to be usable in leet form. So this means you won't be able to deal with adds popping up once you've already begun a fight in any other form, because those are unique to Leet and you'd have to wait a whole minute to be able to cast them?

    That's absolutely awful.
    I've not tested this myself, but it looks like there's just a 2 minute line cooldown on the short duration morph buffs. The leet crit, lizard damage shield and wolf evade buff are all in that line. If you use one of them and then switch morphs, you've still got to wait until the 2 minutes are up before you can use another. Lizard insta-heals and leet calms shouldn't be effected. Just the nanos in http://tl.aoitems.com/nano/strain/251/ .

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiuchus View Post
    That's exactly what I was hoping wouldn't happen The calms are now only going to be usable in leet form. So this means you won't be able to deal with adds popping up once you've already begun a fight in any other form, because those are unique to Leet and you'd have to wait a whole minute to be able to cast them?

    That's absolutely awful.
    Unless they changed how the adv calms work you can't calm a mob once its in a fight. (haven't looked into that on test myself - its possible that was changed) So you couldn't do what you are talking about anyway unless you got some fancy secret that gets around that. :P

    If you can now calm mobs in a fight - I don't think the calm is locked out how the morph buffs are (as stated in the above post) - but I haven't tested that myself. Even if you can calm mobs in a fight now - you can just stay in leet form and calm your heart away then once mobs are calmed, change morph.

    You're still not much worse off than before - on the current patch you can't really do what you're talking about anyway with calming agged mobs after you've started the fight anyway... so I don't see the problem here...

    Edit: found in the first release of 18.7 notes:

    Adventurer mezz is now a proper mezz nano and can be used when in the leet form.

    So it does look like you can calm mobs when they're in fight now - will need to verify though.
    Last edited by Krustyleet87; Mar 4th, 2015 at 18:42:30.

  4. #64
    Adv calms work like normal calms now but they only last 20-30 seconds and have a 10-20 sec cooldown. keeping more than 3 mobs calmed is impossible with top calm so ya nothing special.
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 4th, 2015 at 23:11:19.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Krustyleet87 View Post
    Unless they changed how the adv calms work you can't calm a mob once its in a fight. (haven't looked into that on test myself - its possible that was changed) So you couldn't do what you are talking about anyway unless you got some fancy secret that gets around that. :P

    If you can now calm mobs in a fight - I don't think the calm is locked out how the morph buffs are (as stated in the above post) - but I haven't tested that myself. Even if you can calm mobs in a fight now - you can just stay in leet form and calm your heart away then once mobs are calmed, change morph.

    You're still not much worse off than before - on the current patch you can't really do what you're talking about anyway with calming agged mobs after you've started the fight anyway... so I don't see the problem here...

    Edit: found in the first release of 18.7 notes:

    Adventurer mezz is now a proper mezz nano and can be used when in the leet form.

    So it does look like you can calm mobs when they're in fight now - will need to verify though.

    Personally I really dislike the advy calm changes in the first place. I was quite fine having the AoE calms not work if the mob had already agged, but having a nice duration, and for the ST ones to be fiddly if the mob had agged with a very nice duration. It's not exactly Crat-level calming and that's just fine. I use them as they are now all the time.

    When I heard they were going to revamp the calms I was optimistic, but now it seems it's a big fat nerf with the minor exception of it being less fiddly to use if they've agged

    Ophiuchus : 220/30/80 HAHA etc
    Nahuatl
    :: 220/30/80 Melee 4lyfe
    Khurkh :: 220/30/80 healtankpew
    Transcendence
    Msanthropic
    : 210/26/60 nanostab
    Spidershiva :: 165/23/42 kite? eh?
    Silentmotion
    : 150/20/42 tankthink
    The Union

  6. #66
    Soo. Any date on when 18.7 can be expected on live?
    Rajib - 220 Shotgun Doctor | Businessraj - 220 Shotgun Trader | Nanquan 210+ MA | Blasi - 209 ME Keeper | Rajliana - 200 bow MA ++++++

    WTB Red and blue teams in BS. Thanks Michi!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiuchus View Post
    Personally I really dislike the advy calm changes in the first place. I was quite fine having the AoE calms not work if the mob had already agged, but having a nice duration, and for the ST ones to be fiddly if the mob had agged with a very nice duration. It's not exactly Crat-level calming and that's just fine. I use them as they are now all the time.

    When I heard they were going to revamp the calms I was optimistic, but now it seems it's a big fat nerf with the minor exception of it being less fiddly to use if they've agged
    Can you still use the improved version as a aoe calm / mob puller like on live? If the AoE calm still works but is just shorter duration thats not terrible I guess, can still use it mainly to pull the wanted mob away from the others. Will take some getting used to though for sure by the descriptions listed.

  8. #68
    Advy's having calms was pretty OTT given they have 2nd best heals, awesome dmg, bio cocoon and acrobat.

    Good balance isn't giving 1 class virtually every powerful tool there is in my mind. Appreciate this is going to go down like the Titanic with advy defenders :P
    Defrag 220 Crat
    Chuckle 220 Doctor
    Nates 220 Shade
    Magnite 219 Enf
    Chipbutty 212 Fixer

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by nat3s View Post
    Advy's having calms was pretty OTT given they have 2nd best heals, awesome dmg, bio cocoon and acrobat.

    Good balance isn't giving 1 class virtually every powerful tool there is in my mind. Appreciate this is going to go down like the Titanic with advy defenders :P
    Second best is true, but still way behind best. It's a bit like comparing Usain Bolt, a one legged tortoise and a potato.. but still true about being second best.
    Caloss2 LVL 220 melee VANGUARD (semi retired).....Llewlyn 220/30/70 meepmeep.....Boooocal 220../30/70 Soldier.......Knack 220/30/70 Keeper.....Hiesenberg 215/xx/xx NT NERFED Neytiri1 220/30/70 Shade Knacker220/30/70Meat shield
    https://www.youtube.com/user/caloss2 for guides/walkthroughs/letsplays and all your other AO needs
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta
    In my special design documents that I feed to the FC devs, who are my willing slaves.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Caloss2 View Post
    Second best is true, but still way behind best. It's a bit like comparing Usain Bolt, a one legged tortoise and a potato.. but still true about being second best.
    Actually, that's not true.

    An advy in standard combat gear and combat perks can heal pretty decently.

    Lets say a doc heals 10k/4 seconds
    Advy heals 3k/6 seconds

    But.... with proper damage mitigation, a doc might only throw out 1-2 heals every minute of play, so clearly the average heal rate isn't what constitutes the value of a doctor.

    An advy adds 265 evasion to the tank - which isn't a "lot" but it adds to the mitigation, especially when other mitigation factors are already in play.
    A doctor adds init debuffs, but they aren't a steady as the 265 evades, since the procs are 5% on a hit, and given doc's lower AR it can occasionally mean that a doc's procs don't get up for long stretches (especially when there are adds). Basically, doc procs make the easy time EASIER, but don't make the hard times EASIER, so ultimately they don't add a lot to most boss encounters.

    Which brings us to team heals.

    Top advy team heal superior seed life isn't exactly ILC, but it's not "bad". It's by far and away the best team heal in game for a non-doc, hitting for average 2600ish HP every 6 seconds (about half what ILC lands for but lacks the 3k HP bonus).

    Advy in combat setup will have Bio rejuve, which hits for 1200 HP every 35s as well, which, while it's not a "lot" adds up especially when you consider that it lands on pets, which, in instances like Beast... helps a tonne in mataining DPS uptime.
    Advy also has BR for the tank which, while has limited healing potential in a jam, IS effective to pop on the tank at the beginning of an adds wave or during a stressful time. BR ticks for 500/3x30s = 15000 HP which is not to be scoffed at considering my earlier point that docs might only be healing 1-2x per minute of play anyway.
    Finally, Advy also has the biggest badass team heal available (and any advy who isn't perked into the call isn't properly combat setup) with Awakening. Hitting for 4000-4500 pre-heal eff, this perk actually matches the ENTIRE BG heal line on it's own.

    Consider that every BG heal has a 10m recharge and heals for roughly 5k HP. Awakening heals for about 4600ish with heal eff but has a recharge of only 105s. 10 minutes = 600 seconds.
    600s/105s = 5.7 pops. 5.7*4600 = 26k heals from this over the course of 10 minutes if used efficiently, vs about 5k*4=20k heals (ofc this is pre heal eff, but not all docs are perked into specialist healer)

    Finally, we need to compare spike healing, and this is where a doc will WTF own advy. HOWEVER... with 18.7 around the corner, this balance is about to become a LOT closer...... why?

    Because Phoenix is becoming a 100% heal, not a 10k heal. That means, in a spike heal situation advy COULD launch:

    beauty of life (3k)
    BR (1.2k)
    Stim (2k)
    awakening (4.5k)
    beauty of life (3k)
    over 6 seconds of play and finish with phoenix... which, assuming the target has 45k HP and he catches enf with 5k HP remaining:
    phoenix (40k)
    For a total of 53.7k over 12 seconds.

    Now, the interesting thing here... is that there's very little wastage.

    If you're playing doc, how much of your heals go to waste? Like, every time you pop BI, if you actually want BI to be used to 100% of it's capacity, you have to wait until the tank has lost a lot of HP.

    But, anyway, a doc could do, in 12 seconds:

    BI 12k
    BG1 5k
    BG2 5k
    BG3 5k
    BG4 5k
    stim 2k
    BI (12k)
    CH (40k)
    For a total of 106k HP over about 10s - but notably if you pop all your BG heals then doc has F-all for minor spike team healing for 10 minutes, so it's safer to only use 1 BG heal at a time paired with a ILC which results in a pretty significant loss to spike heals:
    BI 12k
    BG1 5k
    stim 2k
    ILC (4k)
    CH (40k) ==> 63k HP which we now see is pretty bloody close to advy spike healing in 18.7

    In 18.6 spike healing wouldn't be comparable due to phoenix only healing 10k, not being insta cast, and having a brutally long nano recharge.


    My point here is that for general healing capability, advy actually has plenty of heals, given you don't try to tackle a boss with only one type of damage mitigation; and come 18.7 advy has spike healing that closely rivals doctor.

  11. #71
    I don't think Adv will be able to add 265 to evades for a tank with 18.7 - not sure if you were just looking at how it is now or looking forward to 18.7. istare has been combined into the top wolf morph for adv which I don't think we can cast on others and also the mother wolf line is now gone. I think the wolf graft will add some evades now, but I don't think you can really consider that from the adv since its a graft...

  12. #72
    Wolf graft is fixed so it now adds 100 RS/7 dmg instead of 121 evades and 550 RS.

    Advs went from giving nice morphs+evades+heals in a team to just heals with a 1min CH and barely tankable with their awful taunt nanos from lizard morph. No easy way to tell how much 10 agressiveness helps but I found the 80 on crat pet barely helps at all even if crat does less dmg so would need testing.
    Atm with current changes if I had to choose a side healer/tank I would pick MA with their single/team heals being on seperate cooldowns , decent buffs for team, second best taunt nano, better evades, init debuff perks, better dmg, more stuns etc.

    Advs obviously don't need all those things but losing what buffs they could give makes them less of a desired prof in teams which is sad since they are more fun atm on test.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Because Phoenix is becoming a 100% heal, not a 10k heal. That means, in a spike heal situation advy COULD launch:

    beauty of life (3k)
    BR (1.2k)
    Stim (2k)
    awakening (4.5k)
    beauty of life (3k)
    over 6 seconds of play and finish with phoenix... which, assuming the target has 45k HP and he catches enf with 5k HP remaining:
    phoenix (40k)
    For a total of 53.7k over 12 seconds.

    Now, the interesting thing here... is that there's very little wastage.

    If you're playing doc, how much of your heals go to waste? Like, every time you pop BI, if you actually want BI to be used to 100% of it's capacity, you have to wait until the tank has lost a lot of HP.

    But, anyway, a doc could do, in 12 seconds:

    BI 12k
    BG1 5k
    BG2 5k
    BG3 5k
    BG4 5k
    stim 2k
    BI (12k)
    CH (40k)
    For a total of 106k HP over about 10s - but notably if you pop all your BG heals then doc has F-all for minor spike team healing for 10 minutes, so it's safer to only use 1 BG heal at a time paired with a ILC which results in a pretty significant loss to spike heals:
    BI 12k
    BG1 5k
    stim 2k
    ILC (4k)
    CH (40k) ==> 63k HP which we now see is pretty bloody close to advy spike healing in 18.7
    Advs certainly heal more now no argument there but the numbers for doctors could be a lot higher than you showed, ICH is now 15 secs meaning with dmg mitigation a doc rarely has to BI.
    If your example was 15 seconds instead of 12 seconds suddenly docs are pushing 120k vs 60k on adv due to CH for docs being 4 times faster.

    ICH 40k
    *hits in between* 2 secs
    BI 12k
    *hits in between* 4 secs
    BI 12k
    *hits in between* 4 secs
    BI 12k
    *hits in between* 5 secs
    ICH 40k

    116k hp in 15 secs not including perks, healing from hp buff on BI, hots, stim
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 6th, 2015 at 02:54:05. Reason: comparison of doc/adv heals

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Caloss2 View Post
    Second best is true, but still way behind best. It's a bit like comparing Usain Bolt, a one legged tortoise and a potato.. but still true about being second best.
    Ya, adv is so nerf. Definitely needs buffs!

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I agree, we should definitely be spending more time worrying about characters that are, at most, level 15.
    sarcasm not called for, however would be nice to be able to enter the new ICC area up to a certain lvl like the SL area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiuchus View Post
    Still holding out for reverting the unneeded Grid Armour changes, and hoping the Advy morph restrictions that are coming in will be mitigated by being able to swap forms much faster (and I don't just mean the easier cancellation of previous morph).

    But thanks Michi, especially the part at the bottom where you lay out the next things you're hoping to achieve in time for 18.7. That sort of communication gives people an insight into your roadmap
    not sure if this is the place to mention this since you brought it to mind but: who's leg do i have to hump to get some more armor tab stuff wearable with grid armor? i mean, even if only a few random fixer only items... GA isn't nearly as OPd as it used to be, and toons that don't have better options could use a little boost. (this is probably a question best passed on to the devs/programmers)
    Quote Originally Posted by nat3s View Post
    Advy's having calms was pretty OTT given they have 2nd best heals, awesome dmg, bio cocoon and acrobat.

    Good balance isn't giving 1 class virtually every powerful tool there is in my mind. Appreciate this is going to go down like the Titanic with advy defenders :P
    made me think of this: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...itanic-sinking
    ""Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall" --- Confucius""

    too many alts to list, inquire for info. specialties: froobs, fixer, MA, advy, trader/NT

  15. #75
    Just my monthly new-engine-check.
    Same procedure as last month - for the past 10 years.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    116k hp in 15 secs not including perks, healing from hp buff on BI, hots, stim
    My point was doc heal wastage:

    There's zero reason to be able to heal 116k HP in 15 seconds.... because no mob in game can produce that much damage. And more importantly, with enf HP sitting near 45k HP after 18.7 you can't reasonably expect an enf to lose 90% of his HP, get fully re-healed, lose 90% of his HP, get fully rehealed, and lose 90% of his HP, and get rehealed in 15s? I mean, that would figuratively cause heart attacks.

    Hence why advy is actually a reasonably good healer: with little to no wastage, advy heals will be almost enough to suffice - maybe not for the toughest encounters... but whatever, they aren't the top healer.

  17. #77
    My point was that even if Advys healing per min increased its still no where near docs that's all.
    Its not like I think docs are spamming heals every 4 seconds on live or test, that would just be a waste of potential DD. A doc could still out heal advy with just 2 ICHs a min and spend the rest of the time DDing.

    This is to anyone not just you McKnuckleSamwich but comparing Advys to docs is kinda silly now considering they are not even second best at healing anymore, Doc>*Zazen MA>Agent fp doc*>Advy>MA the current healing order.
    Even more silly when both Agent and MA have team support buffs and dmg mitigation perks/buffs while Advys lost all of their support buffs(Morphs+evade arua+Istare and lower ones) and never had ways to mitigate dmg to start with. Having extra shoehorned in role morphs with half ass buffs (2k taunts, 30 sec calms) isn't winning anyone over when 3 other profs can out tank/DD/heal advy all at the same time while Crowd Control is just not possible on adv with its 10+ sec cooldown on calms.

    *agent heals less than MA*
    Last edited by Rockdizzle; Mar 11th, 2015 at 23:48:13. Reason: incorrect about agent healing more than MA

  18. #78
    Oh yes, I see your point. I do agree that advy true spike healing isn't anywhere near doc true spike healing.

    But you must also see mine then that you'll never NEED true spike healing in 18.7.

    However, I think your second point is much more relevant.

    Post 18.7 damage mitigation methods provided by advy are very limited, in fact, are non existent if stare of cerb line becomes self only.

    Top non-self mitigation for PVM (score I give)
    keeper (100) (WW+immi)
    engi (85) blinds + reflects + AC
    crat (75) -inits (mob+adds)
    doc (70) -inits/proc -inits
    shade (60) -inits/stuns
    MP (45) -dmg, -init
    soldier (30) reflect/team reflects
    trader (30) -AAO debuffs + QU
    NT (25) -AAO debuffs
    MA (20) RI (120 evades)/ short init debuffs/stuns
    advy (10) Stare (64 evades)

    thing is though, is post 18.7 I think it's going to become imperative to be marrying up 2-3 types of damage mitigation, and if you get a reasonable range of mitigation options you can really start bringing in support healing as well. The thing is, theres no clear placement swap between 18.6 and 18.7, except that crat/keep/engi probably have their places changed.

    Those three profs on 18.6 and 18.7 are still fundamentally by far and away the best DD/support combo paired with a doc healer and enfo tank. The change I see coming is that MP's will shoot up that list once you've got engi/keep/crat/doc in team... because you can't overwrite the init debuffs (i.e. shade<doc<crat ) so MP is next on the list and provides a really significant boost to mitigation with -900ish add dmg. The problem for MP's is whether the -add dmg buff is still in the malaise/UBT line.

  19. #79
    I wasn't really arguing against whether Docs/Advys needed spike healing or not, we certainly don't need 100k healing in 10 seconds any time soon.

    Atm Advys have only 1 buff line that could potentially mitigate dmg which is the small absorb from shield buffs (280 melee dmg once lol), they lost all their other Target buffs including Istare, morphs, wolf arua.
    So advy gets a score of (1) just for having a tiny absorb.

    Agent I would say is between shade and engi having access to dmg mitigation debuffs/buffs from 12 of 14 profs thus able to fill in for a missing prof. example: agent can cast engi blind + RK reflects(sadly cant use SL ones) + 720 AC buff.
    The only problem above tho is that they don't get access to alot of SL debuffs/buffs from several profs like Crat/MP/doc/sold/engi etc making agents only able to use part of a profs toolset instead of some of each line like they were meant to in rebalance.

    Wrath Abatement and lower versions are in their own line now same with the -dmg debuffs so MPs are gonna be more common in teams for the init debuff+ dmg debuffs.

    I agree with that we prolly won't get away from the cookie cutter profs of Doc/Enf/Crat, just that now engi+MPs+keeps are gonna be on that list somewhere. Profs like Traders/NTs/Advys are gonna be the last picks of profs I feel unless some extra changes come for them.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    I agree with that we prolly won't get away from the cookie cutter profs of Doc/Enf/Crat,
    TBH mate, I don't do anything without a keeper anymore. Crat dmg mitigation without a keeper in team is maybe like a 3/10. Crat paired with keeper is 9.5/10 (currently), crat+doc+keep is 10/10.

    There is NO better 3 man combo that can mitigate as much damage as those three can. Not to preach about it, but I've done NUMEROUS endgame raids where not a single heal is cast by the doctor because you can effectively slow hit rate down so slow that WW + absorbs+ natural enf healing + occasional hot/ILC easily outheals all damage that makes it through WW+ init debuffs.

    Anyone who says keepers aren't good right now are complete retards. Yes, you can do a raid without a keeper. Yes, of course it's possible. But anyone who thinks that a keeper doesn't deserve a spot in the raid because the spot is filled by "better" DPS is inexperienced. Sure, a shade will OD a keeper.

    But if the enf only needs to cast sorbs once every 3-4 minutes, the doc only needs to heal when adds come, and when the crat can miss malaise and not cause a wipe... and that's just the defensive side; keeper also brings 150+95 add dmg to the team, the doc can spend loads more time spamming dmg/dots, and the enf can actually use challenger to boost DD instead of only trying to mitigate damage... I guarantee the damage gained will significantly OD the gain of a shade over keeper.

    That's 18.6.

    In 18.7 there'll only be bigger demand imo due to heightened need for mitigation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rockdizzle View Post
    just that now engi+MPs+keeps are gonna be on that list somewhere. Profs like Traders/NTs/Advys are gonna be the last picks of profs I feel unless some extra changes come for them.
    Engi/MP will find a lot more teams I agree, keeper demand for any knowledgable group should stay what it is, which is first pick, but engi blinds paired with keeper immi+crat as usual should make significant inroads to major advances in evades tanking.

    Add a trader to that (-350AAO and -30% crit!!!) even a nooby enf should be able to tank beast as long as he's got evades maxed - however, notably with Engi/MP/trader/crat in team you should be able to lower landed hit damage down to a level that will make keeper/MA/shade/fixer/advy look a lot more attractive as potential tanks.

    Haven't checked if NT blinds stack with trader AAO drains or engi blinds, but realistically I doubt they stack with engi blinds.... even still, -350 AAO + -1210 AAO will significantly lower a boss weapon size AND boost effective evades by a crapload.

    Overall, NT would be a significant downgrade from engi. Engi / NT DPS probably about the same, unless you got a lot of adds in which case NT would pull ahead, but engi will wtf own NT on dmg mitigation.... the only case I can think of that could be better for NT is if you had some very hard hitting adds and the AOE NT blind was cast on the adds but I don't really see that being a significant draw.

    The thing advy will have going for it is support healing. I really don't see advy getting away from that. the value of a 100% heal insta cast - even if it's on a 60s CD isn't going to change the fact that that is still potentially an extra 40kish heal/60s. I mean, that's like 666hp/s which is pretty bloody good if used on CD. BoL spam on enf with 20% heal reactivity and raid buffs on advy will seriously boost healing on the tank too. Assuming an advy can get about 10% heal eff, 2352 to 3528 (base BoL) will be landing for:

    (2352+3528)/2 *110%*120% = 3900 HP on enfs with kraken up. every 5 seconds.

    Like... that's not bad!

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