A profound sense of loss

[McKnuckleSamwich]

My heart weeps when I think that Advy won't be able to add anything to teams in 18.7

Notable losses to team:

Pack hunter - 54 team evades, 15 add dmg
Howl of the Wolf - 103 team evades, 29 add dmg, 10 RS
Leader of the Pack - 176 team evades, 43 add dmg, 15 RS, 20 AAO
Mother Wolf - 201 team evades, 65 add dmg, 25 RS, 30 AAO

Now I'm not sure about you guys, but this type stuff adds up.

I mean, you stick a wolf other and Istare on top and that's:

415 Runspeed
87 add dmg
265 evades
30 AAO
900 perception

Sooo... Ya, as a team mate of an advy, I'd much rather have this stuff than not.

And speaking of which - is this a unspoken message that we're not supposed to be swapping crit huds?

I really do not feel that a slight boost to eagle eye (80 perc --> 240 perc) really offsets the massive, useful combat buffs afforded by advy to their team mates. (Also notably, the only buff to others advy is retaining is the one most people abhor wolf other...)

Maybe this wasn't obvious, but this will only aggravate problems advy's already have in getting teams.

While I like some of the changes for adventurer, I'm really not keen on this one it feels more like a colossal nerf to advy teammates- which I don't think deserve this, as opposed to a shift in balance for Advy.

Sure, maybe FC wants sneaky profs like Agent/shade to have better sneakiness. Great- I think the way to do that is to remove some of the perception on Istare , but you don't have to instagib the teaming toolset to do that.

my 2c

Edit: Notably the loss of these nanos directly affect Advy performance sub TL7.
At TL6 it will result in a loss of 216 evades
At Tl5 it will result in a loss of 202 evades
At Tl4 it will result in a loss of 117 evades
At Tl2-3 about 54 evades

Not really sure that all the advy's that have always lived and died on evades are really going to embrace this change - ya, TL7 is relatively unaffected, but it certainly doesn't bode well for Tl5 advy which is basically going to be invalidated by these changes.

[Scottik]

Wow, didn't know about these changes but they sure do sound pretty dumb. Removing perfectly fine, level-locked perception buff while keeping clan soli SB ingame? And why are advies getting even more def (261 evades on live vs 500 aad in 18.7)? Their defensive toolset is one of the best if not the best ingame already.

[Ophiuchus]

Yep. That's exactly how I feel. Advys will lose their team support and usefulness. It's kind of why I'm pushing to get my advy completely finished up now before 18.7, so that once the patch hits and my Adv becomes a waste of a valuable team slot because it brings both jack and ****, I can focus on something that people will actually want around next

Add this all on top of the upcomng morph restrictions with how slow it is to change morphs and the delays in using the morph nanos - well you might as well be logging in a different character at that point. In which case why bother settling for advy second best when you can log in a Real Crat/Doc/Enf/etc in the same time it takes to go from a DDing cat to a calming leet or a tanking lizard?

Oh wait, I forgot advs can now heal almost as well as a zazen MA! Whoopity-effing-do. That's so totally worth losing our reactive felxibility, fast adaptability, TL5 capability and overal teamability.

Good thing I've been relearning how to play my engi, eh?

[Cratertina]

Awwwwwwwww. why all da team nerfage... my crat relies on advy auras for extra evades.... means eithersurviving a high ql city genèral.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

throughout the level range advy in wolf form does get the short term AAD boosts... but lets just compare some numbers for a moment:

at 220, advy gets 18s/180s CD of 500 AAD plus 300 evades in top wolf (perma)

300+500*18/180 = 350 - but really more like 300 with spikes which I'm not entirely sure of their utility (might be better or worse, but def worse for team)

Vs live at 220,

120 AAD in top wolf +64 evades+201 evades, 30AAO and 65 add dmg (all perma)

120+64+201 = 385 (static), 30 AAO, 65 add dmg

[Vinkera]

Interesting.

Advy is a rather popular twink choice for specific levels, and I have a level 60 ranged Advy. She's using a Jobe pistol so it's not really easy to make changes without starting from the ground up for the third time...

I'm looking at the changes to playful cub and reading... "At level 200: Modify Dodge-Rng/Duck-Exp/Evade-ClsC 110". Now, does that mathematically mean at 60 she would get +33 to evades from Playful Cub? If so, that's a loss of 21, considering the removal of Pack Hunter. It would also appear to be a loss of 22 damage.

I agree with McKnuckle. I see this as a loss with no clear reason for. Taking that much away from even my level 60 automatically invalidates the little extra effort I put into her, and considering the twinking process took about 4 days to complete (twice!).. I'm not very thrilled either.

[Zwelgje]

The auto scalling of the morphs is a win and loose. People are talking about Adventures being OP, however that mayoraty is talking about the upper and endgame lvl's. This change only add's more fuel because this only adds nerf to the lower lvl's where it isn't needed and more OP to the lvl range other professions are complaining about... Never liked the idea of scaling nano's because it reduces the reason of twinking towards a specific nano, lvl or equip too absolute ZERO...
Also if a morph is scalling then why make e.i. the " tank" morph such high requirments. Therefore it's still useless at low lvl's.

Regarding the OP starter, Yes a BIG loss and noted early already when this changes was first proposed. I've written a post about it somewhere, however was engulfed with other irrelivant stuff. Because loosing this aura basicly means taking away all the team buffing aspect of the Adventurer. Now we only have to go forward and hope to be teamed on our merits of being the second best at nothing...

Also most other proffessions only see that Adventurers have gained alot of potential and within the scope of the "roll" we are pushed in that might be true. But in the general sence of a MMORPG and for most playstyles we loose alot. We loose our likebility to be teamed. And the "Better Roll's for Morphs" won't fix this because there's always a profession better at it.

This however is not the end. And lets just list all the things we don't like but for most which we DO like. Let's work from there....

[Rockdizzle]

Honestly can only think of 2 good points

1.Morphs being easy to swap.(kinda) Old wolf + arua + istare gave 381 def and 185 add dmg, wolf now gives 330 evades and 0 dmg while saber now gives 220 dmg. Morph being purely role based is great tho the mods on lower ones need some work.
2.CH is now insta, 100% and no more 13/13 speed letting advys use other heals right after. 60 sec cooldown is fine since I doubt advys were casting it more than once a minute on average anyways.

Now that all the good points were pointed out I can start my list of complaints.
(lizard multiple problems)
1.lizard lacks viable taunts to make it worth using as a tank, 2.25k taunts are not stealing agg off anyone with an Advs sub par DD in a morph with no DD in it.
2.lizard gives so much HP that its basically used as a way to avoid being killed in duels when juggling evades+coon+BR+CH for alphas.
*3.Not related to Adv directly, Agents can use top lizard creating a monster that makes Advy in lizard look pathetic.
(leet)
1.Calms are seriously underwhelming, lowest calm is 20 second duration and 20 sec cooldown while the top calm is 30 sec duration and 10 sec cooldown. Current calms are at best temporary add control for 1-2 mobs. who would bother with them?
2.Pronouncement of Greatness is pretty weak for a crit morph adding only 7% at 200, doesn't even match MoP until like level 180ish. 13-14% crit would make more sense otherwise sabre morph all the way after you can cast it.
(sabretooth)
*1.only problem I can think of is not about advs but agents, Agents can combine Enf big hp buff+sabretooth allowing for 27-28k HP agents with high AR from frenzy+sabre with adv healing still. Quick fix for this is to add Heal Reactivity nanoline on sabre so Mongo's Leviathan doesn't stack
(Reet)
*none* in fact its amazing since yalms are now nerfed to match your current RS + whatever the yalm gives.
(wolf)
1.Playful Cub is really weak, doesn't even match RI at level 200 which is pretty sad. Another wolf morph with higher reqs giving around 220 evades at 200 would help advs from level 100 to 214.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

This isn't about advy's.

This is about advy team mates.

265 evades is half of what a crat brings. Imagine the QQ if IHM was dropped to say 150 AAD?

[Rockdizzle]

I'm sure the first thing I would see is "crats being desired for teams is over" or something crazy like that.

Morphs being changed to scale and give high mods is to blame for removing Wolf arua+Istare, Perception being lowered for others could of been to blame for losing IStare also but not sure.

There's 2 ways I could see going about giving Advs back their old team presence:

1.Team aura based on type of Morph used and doesn't stack on Advy with morph, can scale if desired but I'll leave that up to discussion
or
2.Return Mother Wolf and lower version auras with adjusted stats while working in any morph. Also doesn't stack on advy.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm sure the first thing I would see is "crats being desired for teams is over" or something crazy like that.

Morphs being changed to scale and give high mods is to blame for removing Wolf arua+Istare, Perception being lowered for others could of been to blame for losing IStare also but not sure.

There's 2 ways I could see going about giving Advs back their old team presence:

1.Team aura based on type of Morph used and doesn't stack on Advy with morph, can scale if desired but I'll leave that up to discussion
or
2.Return Mother Wolf and lower version auras with adjusted stats while working in any morph. Also doesn't stack on advy.

tbh these are pretty reasonable ideas. especially the first one. I like the idea of advy running a pulsing max HP buff in form of lizard or evade pulse in wolf, or crit/conceal aura in leet form, or small crit/add dmg morph in sabre.

It might be too much to ask to build all of those so probably bringing back mother wolf/leader of the pack, etc would be the most feasible.

Also, notably, in 18.6, mother wolf did it ALL, with evades, RS, AAO, loads of add dmg.

I really thought mother wolf/leader of the pack lines were the significantly more useful than any other advy buff, and quite frankly when levelling, it was the easiest telltale to assess if the advy knew his ass from his elbow.

I remember being in inferno with advy's who didn't have leader of the pack and thinking that I should probably just leave team.

[Zwelgje]

This isn't about advy's. This is about advy team mates. 265 evades is half of what a crat brings. Imagine the QQ if IHM was dropped to say 150 AAD?

Not sure if I agree that it is bad that other professions loose abit of defence. Some professions have imho way to much defence vs there roll. However the easy fix to just remove the advy aura, for what reason, is not good for the team desirability for an Advy, no matter the other changes to there toolset. And yes many did underrate the aura... The proposition of each morph there own version would be ideal indeed. An aura that addepts tot the morph... Likewhise one button to smash for the morph specials, no matter the moroh you in, would be nice as well. But there it got complex again

[Ophiuchus]

A single Aura line that adapts to the morph that the target is in would be perfect. People can request specific morphs off the advy and if you have a leeted agent, a shade in cat and an enfo in wolf they each gain something helpful. Of course, Advies would need to be able to morph others too...

In other words, something which isn't broken in the first place (just needs some tweaks) is being ripped out for absolutely no good reason. I'm kind of hoping in these next 2 profession focused patches Michi does something akin to what he did with the teleport/recall blocker quest and ditch the majority of the proposed changes.

People would actually want Advies in team! My newly alpha'd and double-dinged advy won't be relegated to BY duties

[sannz]

A single Aura line that adapts to the morph that the target is in would be perfect. People can request specific morphs off the advy and if you have a leeted agent, a shade in cat and an enfo in wolf they each gain something helpful. Of course, Advies would need to be able to morph others too...

+1 with a Leet on top!

Flexible, yet useful and rather hassle free. Dragon for tank, sabre or leet for dd... Hell, I like it!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

A single Aura line that adapts to the morph that the target is in would be perfect. People can request specific morphs off the advy and if you have a leeted agent, a shade in cat and an enfo in wolf they each gain something helpful. Of course, Advies would need to be able to morph others too...

In other words, something which isn't broken in the first place (just needs some tweaks) is being ripped out for absolutely no good reason. I'm kind of hoping in these next 2 profession focused patches Michi does something akin to what he did with the teleport/recall blocker quest and ditch the majority of the proposed changes.

People would actually want Advies in team! My newly alpha'd and double-dinged advy won't be relegated to BY duties

+1 with a Leet on top!

Flexible, yet useful and rather hassle free. Dragon for tank, sabre or leet for dd... Hell, I like it!

MICHI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we've found the solution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please read ^^

[Auct]

Regarding casting Morphs on others:

As a concept I think the removal of the ability to morph others is a good thing and would like to see it kept. With the way the morphs and auras work at the moment (pre-18.7), it drives a non-adv player towards always taking on a morph if there is an adv in the team and you end up with a whole team of doggies. This takes something away from the 'uniqueness' of the Adv profession (i.e. being the ones who morph) and means you are lose any visual differentiation of characters.

Regarding Adv team desirability:

Despite my feelings on the previous point, I accept that losing the ability to morph others has impacts on the team desirability of the Adv. The way I would like to see this achieved is for the Adv to be truly able to take on the key roles (healer/tank/CC) with equivalent capability where the primary provider isn't available. I think this is where they are trying to take it, but some tweaking could be needed to fully make up for the issues described in the OP.

[Zwelgje]

Hello everyone, I hope you've had a great March! It has been a long month, but I feel the fruits of our labor are worth it. Without further ado, here we go!

A bit of text...

Profession Changes
This round of changes will serve to revisit previous changes, while also introducing adjustments I had previously planned to make, but could not find time for. Thank you once again to everyone who took the time to provide feedback on how the various professions are looking, and extra points to those who took the extra time of compiling this feedback into a handy list! A very brief set of the changes from this upcoming round include:

• Adventurers will be able to buff teammates via form-specific auras

Much text again...

Win!

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I checked out the nanos on TL and I'm kinda baffled by the approach.

There are 8 different nanos (4 for lower level, 4 for higher level) and each does a different thing (this feels a lot like the bureaucrat wasted limbs discussion already)

I thought that the request was pretty straightforward; it seems like the request was heard, but completely overworked.

Lets look at one nano for example, the evade one.

You (the adventurer) use this nano when in wolf form, and it gives everyone in your team a RS/ evade buff.

Lets say you want to switch, ok lets use tank morph now. So you cast tank morph aura now everyone gets some extra tankiness.

But you have to swap nanos for this, and, quite frankly, only one person in the team needs the extra 'tankiness' buff.

Not only that but there's 8 bloody nanos for all this.


Here is what we WANTED (Michi):

Advy casts the universal aura.

Everyone in the team gets (for example) the BASE buff (lets say: 20AAD, 35 add dmg, 85 RS and 15 AAO)
But that's not all!
Now lets say the advy is in a team with 5 other people, the doc has requested no morph, the shade has requested sabretooth, the agent has requested leet, the enforcer has requested pit lizard and the MA requested wolf.

Now, the way the aura SHOULD work is as follows:
Provided the advy has buffed his teammates with the morphs they've asked for, a SECONDARY buff lands on each team member which is MORPH dependent.

Doc (no morph): receives the 7% heal eff (tree form AND no morph get this)
Shade (sabre): receives level dependent AAO and add dmg buff (sabre varietal)
Agent (leet): receives level dependent crit boost and concealment boost (leet varietal)
Enforcer (lizard): receives the level dependent reflect/HP/AC boost (lizard varietal)
MA (wolf): receives the level dependent AAD/RS/ add dmg boost (wolf varietal)
And finally the advy is in wolf form and he gets the same boost as the MA.

Now, this makes the advy significantly more adaptable in any teaming situation - not only does the advy bring a little bit of something to enhance each profs toolset, but he does so at no expense to himself.

The only other point I want to make here is that even if this fix went through properly, you've still nerfed advy teammates - a team mate has gone from getting 265 evades to getting 110 AAD, lost all their add dmg that normally came with mother wolf and only really retains the base buffs from wolf other, which, quite frankly is a brutal nerf.

I suggest doubling all the benefits on ALL of the morph specific boosts, and half the boosts advy gets from the self buffs.

AND making aesir absorbtion a team AAD boost of 75 AAD, AND making the top add dmg proc a team add dmg buff.

That will bring advy up to par for teaming.

[Ophiuchus]

Here is what we WANTED (Michi):

Advy casts the universal aura.

Everyone in the team gets (for example) the BASE buff (lets say: 20AAD, 35 add dmg, 85 RS and 15 AAO)
But that's not all!
Now lets say the advy is in a team with 5 other people, the doc has requested no morph, the shade has requested sabretooth, the agent has requested leet, the enforcer has requested pit lizard and the MA requested wolf.

Now, the way the aura SHOULD work is as follows:
Provided the advy has buffed his teammates with the morphs they've asked for, a SECONDARY buff lands on each team member which is MORPH dependent.

Doc (no morph): receives the 7% heal eff (tree form AND no morph get this)
Shade (sabre): receives level dependent AAO and add dmg buff (sabre varietal)
Agent (leet): receives level dependent crit boost and concealment boost (leet varietal)
Enforcer (lizard): receives the level dependent reflect/HP/AC boost (lizard varietal)
MA (wolf): receives the level dependent AAD/RS/ add dmg boost (wolf varietal)
And finally the advy is in wolf form and he gets the same boost as the MA.

Yep, I thought that what I'd originally written conveyed this but perhaps I wasn't clear

What we currently have now on TL - 8 seperate nanos that give everyone else what the advy wants not what they want (I even brought up the lizard tank buffs being pretty useless for everyone who isn't the lizarded tanky adv) - isn't all that helpful.

It's not like current wolf + aura is so OP Adv is considered a core team prof like crat etc...

[Michizure]

I did read these suggestions, though it is not intended for Adventurers (or FP Agents) to be able to cast morphs on others any more, so such a buff would not work as described. It was a design decision to make the meaningful morphs be unique for the Adventurers, with exceptions made for the graft-casted morphs.

I am not particularly fond of having 1 aura for all situations, and prefer requiring the Adventurer to "commit" to the buff they want to apply to the team; it is very easy for Adventurers to change morphs, if the needs of the team changes.

Once 18.7 has been pushed to Live, we'll analyze what is there, make needed adjustments, and perhaps devise some new ways that Advs can support their team members, to hopefully assuage this profound sense of loss.