Boxing

[Ninewood]

Ha! I got you! No, this is not another ban multiboxing thread. Quite the opposite.

So Genele has overslept the opportunity to ban boxing in ao. Now its here and there is no way to take that back because almost every serious player now has a box. So the logical next step is to adapt and embrace that change. Ideally, funcom should enable multiboxing toons from one account or at least offer discounts for multiple accounts but hey, I'm not delusional, that ain't gonna happen. Don't get me wrong, it should. Because boxing has become a part of this game. But it won't. So what I am suggesting is an implementation of boxing to AO. The game wasn't meant for it and programs like hotkey are bandaid fixes. They work well with some trying around but i think this could become a feature of ao that is unique. If funcom was to take the next logical step and embrace this. It can't be that hard to outdo the third party programs in terms of functionality and ease of use.

/flameon!

[Litestrider]

Actually, I was sure this thread was going to be about the veteran boxing gloves and/or a new duel system

You would actually be surprised just how hard it can be to overcome third party programs in a lot of cases. The scripting/button-remapping programs available today are quite powerful and feature-rich. It would most likely involve a lot of work on their part, and the end result would simply maintain the status quo for most people.

I think continuing the current course is probably the most prudent choice, don't worry too much about enforcement, but snag those people who are obviously using infinite loops and super heavy scripting to farm and exploit things.

The multiple-characters-from-one-account idea I've seen suggested many times, and I think that with the right price point it could stand to make as much or even more money than would come in from single accounts, but at this point I think the character transfer system likely fulfills the same niche in terms of profits, and the system might be rather problematic for them to implement depending on just how their account system is set up.

[Ninewood]

well there are a lot of things the third party programs can't do. for instance a client without graphics or synchronized runspeed. the idea is not to outperform third party programs for the heck of it, the idea is to make it generally accessible.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'm just really fond of the concept of being the "commander" of my 6 man group whom I compete with other 6 man groups.

What really is cool about boxing is that you get to define your group makeup completely from the ground up.

You want instakills? make 5 NT's/5 agents

You want superior defence? use crat/keep/advy//engi/doc

I find it to be a pretty interesting advancement in gameplay.

The funny thing I find about boxing is how incredibly slow some people are to embrace it. Yes - I love oldschool playing only 1 char at a time it's fun and all, but man it's slow as all hell compared to insane burst damage you get from two taps of a button when 4-6 toons unleash all their specials and fast perks vs an unsuspecting opponent.

I know guys who have 3-6 accounts but still play them using alt tab and - oh crap I need to heal! I better swap to my doctor!

The beauty is in reliance on the self, you are the only one responsible. Can't play well? you got no-one to blame but yourself. Don't like your DPS? change your configuration. But on the whole, the reality is, if you can get your toons to be functioning at even 75%-85% of peak operational capacity, the very fact that you know your toons are assisting and not AFK is well worth the investment of having multiple accounts.

I hate levelling, I hate grinding. But I love the insane complexity of utilizing synergy between profs which are team boosters, and enablers. I've started classifying profs in far more complex ways than just "healer" "tank" and "DPS" I've realized in AO there are much more significant sub-classes that really only become evident when you're controlling multiple toons and seeing the broader utility each member of your team brings. For example, I've realised that there is, within the AO populace a hugely undercredited sub-class of "damage mitigation" experts. Some profs excel SO much at damage mitigation, while others do very little, then there are the "enablers" these are the booster profs that enable any other class to boost offense or defence so much, or so synergistically that those profs then double account as damage mitigation or damage dealers.

The complexity and synergy between some classes is astounding, and the more I play the more I realise the true depth of AO.

Some of the more obvious synergies are:

enf <-->doc
keeper<--> crat

But then there are others that are less well known:

shade<-->trader
engi<-->trader
keeper<-->soldier
MA<--> Keeper
keeper<-->advy<-->crat
advy<-->soldier<-->keeper
engi<-->advy<-->keeper<-->crat
and omgwtf
engi<-->advy<-->keeper<-->crat<-->trader<-->SHADE

I'm not going to give away all the secrets... but lets just say some combinations of players with specific setups that mechanics can be a bitch.

Sure, having a box with 5 NT's and a fixer is good for a gank/meep/gank/meep/gank/meep, which is great and by all means it's a very powerful approach, but there are other approaches and I find it to be a pretty interesting theoretical exercise to dissect the potential mechanistic exploits that are possible under some combinations of properly equipped team builds.

[EmSeeBee]

"Embrace" the change that has destroyed this game and make it even easier. Good idea.

"almost every serious player now has a box"

Good joke. Maybe 10 die-hards who love pumping $70-90/mo into a game that's steadily on the decline (primarily because of their own actions) have boxes. Most people have bills & other financial responsibilities, social lives, etc. The only people who box are people who have an unhealthy obsession with the game.

[gresh]

"Embrace" the change that has destroyed this game and make it even easier. Good idea.

"almost every serious player now has a box"

Good joke. Maybe 10 die-hards who love pumping $70-90/mo into a game that's steadily on the decline (primarily because of their own actions) have boxes. Most people have bills & other financial responsibilities, social lives, etc. The only people who box are people who have an unhealthy obsession with the game.

Agreed

Mck thinks if any player isn't him... Then they are not a serious player... Box or no box. Lets all complain like mad at something then do a complete turn around and embrace the very thing we've moaned about...classy idea.

[Saetos]

Multiboxers are indeed starting to ruin instances and playfields you could at one point find teams for - S10 is now completely barren of any teams, now only solo'd by MAs to farm relays and power cells and by MB'd enf/sold/doc teams to farm the bosses for insane amounts of loot.

I also like this:

What really is cool about boxing is that you get to define your group makeup completely from the ground up.

You want instakills? make 5 NT's/5 agents

When someone can wax poetic about removing all skill elements from public PVP, when you can change the tide of battle because you're paying $75 per month instead of $15, then we're absolutely doomed.

Genele made a tremendous mistake in allowing this to happen and now the entire game is slowly unraveling itself. PVP has already become a massive joke because of this and now it's bleeding into PVM encounters. This has to stop or an already obscure game is going to die.

[Cratertina]

Mboxin meh, there are.many sides of this argument...

I am split between Omg so much power!! And ... omg so much work.

Frankly respect to people who do it. It is a major investment in time, money and credits. Finaly epic scripting and control skillz to operate.

In the end mboxers are serius players, but not all serius players are mboxers.

I have girlfriend, work, I am sure mboxing would kill one of the two. Or both.

[Ninewood]

"Embrace" the change that has destroyed this game and make it even easier. Good idea.

"almost every serious player now has a box"

Good joke. Maybe 10 die-hards who love pumping $70-90/mo into a game that's steadily on the decline (primarily because of their own actions) have boxes. Most people have bills & other financial responsibilities, social lives, etc. The only people who box are people who have an unhealthy obsession with the game.

sorry, but that is what it looked like 1 or 2 years ago. not everyone has a 6 box like mck, but 3 or 4 are quite common these days.

what do you expect will happen? that all these boxes you guys complain about here and in all the other threads just go away? wake up. they won't. mourning and crying doesn't help. the decision has been made. (or do you honestly believe this can be undone?) mck is actually a good example. he even quit because of it. and i'd have to dig a bit to find the quote as i am only occasionally on the forums, but he got into it for the same reason: its not going away, so why not try it?

i agree with his post. it adds a complexity to the gameplay that makes the game interesting again. why not make that more accessible? right now its limited to people who "exploit" the game using third party programs.

the only argument against it i have heard so far is that you don't like the concept to begin with. given that it is here to stay, that argument is sort of biting its own tail.

[Caloss2]

I have some T-shirts for sale.

Drugs are here to stay, people don't like it and complain about it, lets face it it won't go away, the drug life isn't easy and crying doesn't help. The decision has be made (by the AO worst GD in the history of the game) Drugs add complexity to the game and make it interesting again; I guess I just don't like the concept to begin with.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

If pay by year its' $500 for a 6 man team for a full year of activity.

Sure, it's a bit more expensive that paying for one account, but anyone who buys by the month who intends to play is throwing money away.

$500/12 = $42 /month I mean, sure, I could go and buy 2 six packs of beer for that.... but did I tell you I started brewing my own?

A bottle of beers costs me $0.22 ... which means the price of a six pack has dropped to less than a buck. I'm not an alcoholic, but the money I save brewing my own easily pays for differential amount I pay for game.

Hell, I pay more for 1 day a week of squash /month - $11/day *4 = $44 /month

It's not exactly an expensive pursuit.

But I'll point out some economics. I have a busy life, I work 10hours a day, have a family+2 kids. When I finally get to the game, I don't want to be held back by:

* no teams
* people busy
* aussie TZ
* gimps who can't hold their own

I want to log in and play, and because I can do that, it's worth it to me. I have no one to blame but myself if things go awry. I'm responsible and I take care of my box.

I play less than 12 hours a week most weeks, but I'm still able to outfit a toon in full combat gear in less than a month's work. In the last 6 weeks I've bought 9 240+ supple bots, converted one PVM toon to PVP and i'm working on a second set of CSS for my engi to swap into for PVP for an evade setup.

You can't do that with one account, it's too slow. dollar for dollar, it's worth it in spades to have a box. Ya, gresh, I complained about it in PVP, and I'll still complain about it. But I sure as hell won't give up the boost it provides in PVP if no-one else is. I'm not a effing martyr.

[Xootch]

I have some T-shirts for sale.

Drugs are here to stay, people don't like it and complain about it, lets face it it won't go away, the drug life isn't easy and crying doesn't help. The decision has be made (by the AO worst GD in the history of the game) Drugs add complexity to the game and make it interesting again; I guess I just don't like the concept to begin with.

funny you say that now that pod is getting legal everywhere.

[Caloss2]

funny you say that now that pod is getting legal everywhere.

Would you like a T-shirt ?

[Caloss2]

If pay by year its' $500 for a 6 man team for a full year of activity.

Sure, it's a bit more expensive that paying for one account, but anyone who buys by the month who intends to play is throwing money away.

$500/12 = $42 /month I mean, sure, I could go and buy 2 six packs of beer for that.... but did I tell you I started brewing my own?

A bottle of beers costs me $0.22 ... which means the price of a six pack has dropped to less than a buck. I'm not an alcoholic, but the money I save brewing my own easily pays for differential amount I pay for game.

Hell, I pay more for 1 day a week of squash /month - $11/day *4 = $44 /month

It's not exactly an expensive pursuit.

But I'll point out some economics. I have a busy life, I work 10hours a day, have a family+2 kids. When I finally get to the game, I don't want to be held back by:

* no teams
* people busy
* aussie TZ
* gimps who can't hold their own

I want to log in and play, and because I can do that, it's worth it to me. I have no one to blame but myself if things go awry. I'm responsible and I take care of my box.

I play less than 12 hours a week most weeks, but I'm still able to outfit a toon in full combat gear in less than a month's work. In the last 6 weeks I've bought 9 240+ supple bots, converted one PVM toon to PVP and i'm working on a second set of CSS for my engi to swap into for PVP for an evade setup.

You can't do that with one account, it's too slow. dollar for dollar, it's worth it in spades to have a box. Ya, gresh, I complained about it in PVP, and I'll still complain about it. But I sure as hell won't give up the boost it provides in PVP if no-one else is. I'm not a effing martyr.

I have 3 kids 4 grandchildren, and boxing was the final nail in AO coffin, there's no joy in the game anymore; just people getting stuff done solo, and for me that's really not the point of an MMO, the point was other people to play with, not turn up for a 12man and watch a boxer get all the loot, 6 bids on roll in a 8 man team.. no big surprise.
Or watching the same boxers infatically control NW there's just less and less to want to log in for.

I'm not a martyr; I'm just done.
I wouldn't jump off the cliff just because that's what everyone else does either.
Right now the game is like Christopher Reeves, breaking his neck didn't kill him, he plodded along for a good few years, but the damage was done the landscape was set, in the end a result of his immobility caused an infection and poor guy died; in that analogy MB is just the iron lung keeping the game alive.
I just choose the other option, I've wasted enough time trying to explain to the disease why it's not good to be disease and kill the host, but disease is gonna disease.

Good luck with that.

[Ninewood]

....

see, if you want to quit: quit. i don't see your point.

[Caloss2]

see, if you want to quit: quit. i don't see your point.

Would you like a T-shirt ?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I have 3 kids 4 grandchildren, and boxing was the final nail in AO coffin, there's no joy in the game anymore; just people getting stuff done solo, and for me that's really not the point of an MMO, the point was other people to play with, not turn up for a 12man and watch a boxer get all the loot, 6 bids on roll in a 8 man team.. no big surprise.
Or watching the same boxers infatically control NW there's just less and less to want to log in for.

I'm not a martyr; I'm just done.
I wouldn't jump off the cliff just because that's what everyone else does either.
Right now the game is like Christopher Reeves, breaking his neck didn't kill him, he plodded along for a good few years, but the damage was done the landscape was set, in the end a result of his immobility caused an infection and poor guy died; in that analogy MB is just the iron lung keeping the game alive.
I just choose the other option, I've wasted enough time trying to explain to the disease why it's not good to be disease and kill the host, but disease is gonna disease.

Good luck with that.

Ohh, I sense the bitterness.

Let me give you a different view of things.

Last night I:

1. got a WU - sold to orgmate for half the market value (I even had a bid on it that was 50% more than what he paid)
2. Introduced an orgmate to an instance where I was able to explain it pre/post , then do it a second time to get him more acquainted with it (and got him a nanodeck thingy and a new offense board, and some new symbs
3. got another orgmate a defensive board
4. sold a few pieces of gear to some lower SL dinged toons for a very decent price
5. Built a 12 man team (I played doc/crat/enf/keeper) so I could invite a broad range of toons who otherwise may have found it difficult to get an invite to 12m due to some prof restrictions
6. 1 person wanted leg, 1 person wanted multicolour screwdriver, instead of rolling on items and /selling lootrights or whatever else I appreciate that people need the stuff, so I just said, as raid leader that those people could have those items, rest of stuff was FFA
7. gave some advice and let a few orgmates know I'd be happy to help them in APF in the next couple days
8. logged off

Now, I don't know about you, but there was nothing malicious or "dominate the world" type of thing going on there.

Everything I do in game I try to include people who want to do the activity. Two nights ago, I included a fella in org who needed a Wu in my activities. We didn't get one, but if we had I was prepared to give it to him for his efforts in participating. Last week a guy asked if he could join and said he needed a WU. I understand that people have a hard time getting stuff and if they don't have 300m to try to get a WU by LR I'd rather help them out than send them packing.

It doesn't help the game for people to be *******s.

I'd much rather use my box to enable my org, to build relationships, to help, coach and build capability, to enhance play, to enhance and build opportunity. But to assume that all boxers only want to solo play and hoard and gank and dominate NW is pretty short sighted.

[Saetos]

I'd much rather use my box to enable my org, to build relationships, to help, coach and build capability, to enhance play, to enhance and build opportunity. But to assume that all boxers only want to solo play and hoard and gank and dominate NW is pretty short sighted.

You literally just expounded upon the reason WHY it's such a terrible idea - because now one person and one person alone can service an entire community of players. It goes completely anathema to the idea of MMOs, negates the teamwork aspect of it, and this is purely from an altruistic standpoint, of which you are in the minority. The more malicious or apathetic of those that choose to multibox for their own good are undeniably out there and are killing the game outright, and your actions do not negate what they do, or why multiboxing is the reason this game has finally gone past the breaking point.

[Ninewood]

You literally just expounded upon the reason WHY it's such a terrible idea - because now one person and one person alone can service an entire community of players. It goes completely anathema to the idea of MMOs, negates the teamwork aspect of it, and this is purely from an altruistic standpoint, of which you are in the minority. The more malicious or apathetic of those that choose to multibox for their own good are undeniably out there and are killing the game outright, and your actions do not negate what they do, or why multiboxing is the reason this game has finally gone past the breaking point.

be that as it may, ao is an online game that has boxing as common part of its gameplay now. you can close your eyes and hope it'll be gone when you open them - but it'll still be there. boxing is a part of ao these days. period. so the question is why should it be smart to enable a fraction of players to do it when it should not only be available to anyone but could also become a unique feature of the game. instead of mourning and cursing it - just think about the alternative for a second. there is a considerable number of people effectively and successfully boxing. they won't stop, fc won't stop them. like you say, they have a giant advantage over single players. no one would even argue. so your strategy is to simply maintain this unbalance? how is that going to make things better? its going to make things worse.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You literally just expounded upon the reason WHY it's such a terrible idea - because now one person and one person alone can service an entire community of players. It goes completely anathema to the idea of MMOs, negates the teamwork aspect of it, and this is purely from an altruistic standpoint, of which you are in the minority. The more malicious or apathetic of those that choose to multibox for their own good are undeniably out there and are killing the game outright, and your actions do not negate what they do, or why multiboxing is the reason this game has finally gone past the breaking point.

Oh you.

There are many indicators suggesting that you speak not of which you know, but also speak of that which you don't know.

Here are some indicators that suggest things are not as Doom and Gloom as you think:

During LOW population periods we have 10+ online. During the nadir of population timezones, we had 16 people online last night

Multiboxers produce FAR more gear than they need:

* Igoc's are 60% lower price than they were about 6 months ago
* supple bots - while in flux are 50% lower than they were 6 months ago
* Xan Ability NCU's are 30% of the price they were 6 months ago
* Lootrights for Beast gear is lower than it's ever been
* lootrights for APF gear is lower than it's ever been
* lootrigths for HI specs are lower than they've ever been
* lootrights for Weapon Upgrades are about 30-40% lower than they were at peak

I know what you're going to say: that the very fact that lootrights are even a thing is evidence that multiboxing has ruined the game... but you're totally wrong.

Lootrights exist because the mechanics allow it. They will always exist if the mechanics allow it because there will ALWAYS be inequality between players, whether that inequality is based in skill or gear or both, one player will ALWAYS be faster at acquisition than another, and therefore one player will, given enough boredom or impetus, sell the loot he doesn't "need". That is a given in a supply and demand economy.

As for your claims about MB'ers unravelling the social fabric of the game or whatever your wording was, I say to that balderdash. Sure, some people stick to themselves. But MB doesn't change people, it only enables them to do what comes naturally more easily. I know a guy who has 4 accounts and he has always played solo, he doesn't MB, but I'm teaching him how to do it, he's very excited because now he can do what he's always done, but do it more effectively.

That guy is one of my longest standing friends in game, he was in three orgs with me dating back to 2007. He is generous, patient and kind with everyone, he helps out when help is needed; but when he plays he likes the solitary encounters where he doesn't feel the need to talk to people.. he has many pains in his life and I doubt he wants to tell people about them. Is him MBing ruining AO? I hardly think so.

Who are these malicious MB'ers you seem to think exist - ruining the game for everyone?