Further improvements and tweaks for .24 (testserver)

[nanoforcer]

As most forum dwellers are aware of work is being done for 18.7 and since it seems like Michi will be focusing on more prof specific issues i though i'de write some stuff i figured out while spanking stuff with my ma.

I did some basic test like killed the Zodiac (portal mob) while getting hugged by an add and it was slow but not really a problem so i feel the healing part of Zazen is good.
I also usually use the foreman down at 4 holes as a good mob to test Pvm action, if you can kill it your toon is good for pvm.

Zazen Stance

Modify % Add. Nano Cost 30
Healing Efficiency 100%
Modify CriticalIncrease -100
Add. Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)

Now, even though this makes me hard to kill it also gimps my pvm damage by far too much, i think it's been compared to the level of a doctor in other posts.

For this to work better in pvm there could either be more stances that focus on pvp/pvm or simply adjust lie like i'll suggest bellow.

If we're forced to keep -100% crit this would make more sence:

Modify % Add. Nano Cost 30
Healing Efficiency 100%
Modify CriticalIncrease -100

So basically removing this:
Add. Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)

The reasoning is like this, if we ain't gonna crit at least make us do slighty more damage for pvm, also moredamage would help a bit in pvv for obious reasons + the fact that AS and sneak attack use multipliers to it would help hit a little harder.
Also the reason for not nerfing evades is that in pvp is that i estimate most professions will be able to perk us and for pvm we get hit more from mobs.

Or we could go this route, the 50% Zazen


Modify % Add. Nano Cost 30
Healing Efficiency 100%
Modify CriticalIncrease -50
Add. Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
AAO at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200) (note, should not affect MA skill as explained below)

This would skill gives us a little extra ouuupf in both pvp and pvm but nerf our aao as not to steamroll stuff in pvm, the aao loss in pvm would still allow us to perk 95% of pvm content.
As most know MA skill is very important for us, not only to gain AR to hit stuff but it directly influences our damage template for fist, also we need to skill to hotswap weaons in fight, it also decides how FAST we hit with first witch brings me to my next point.

We need to get a cap on MA init speed, and by that i mean the the more MA skill we have the slower our fist get, and that needs to stop, set a cap for something like 1.4/1.4 or so.
No other prof gets abused like that and it's a dumb idea from the original team that annoys me since it makes it damned hard for us to go full def and hit 1/1 with fists.

I don't think perks like Red dawn and Balance of Yin and Yang / Harmonize Body and Mind are affected by the Zazen healboost, Michi take a look at it?
Would it also be resonable to extend or shorten recharge on incapacitate and red dusk for pvm purposes so they overlap? Always having one or the other running on a mob would help alot for ma's.

I belive Michi is greatfull that we come with fresh ideas and is much much more willing to work WITH us on ideas than his predecessors.

This is draft 1, i'll prolly review it later, but please do come with ideas.

[nanoforcer]

Hey look, i almost did a McKnuckleSamwich (walls of text, usually good stuff, i hope mine makes sense as well)

[Rockdizzle]

McKnuckleSamwich , Voyvovoy and I were talking about Zazen in another thread and the problem I find is that MAs get a huge boost to healing and lowering the debuffs a lot suddenly makes them OP in pvp. I'm all for getting more DD in zazen for pvm(it sucks tbh) so finding a balance where MAs are not all using zazen to lol pwn in pvp but still push reasonable DD (prolly somewhere between docs and solds assuming docs cant out dd solds ofc) would be great.

I was the one that calced the DPM between docs and MA and it honestly didn't surprise me as everyone assumes Docs have bad DD yet they can now push 270-280k without much trouble and more if they forgo healing entirely not that its a good idea heh. When I first saw the debuffs on zazen I knew they would lose to docs without testing but not by alot.

"Modify % Add. Nano Cost 30
Healing Efficiency 100%
Modify CriticalIncrease -100

So basically removing this:
Add. Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)"

At this point all you gotta do is imagine a 220 doc with 3.5-3.6k def with perks for 200/800/1000 more , 100% stun resist, 3.2k AR with a perk for 220 more,hard hitting regs/specials,AAD debuff and stuns galore. its pretty scary to think about tbh
Even at 3.1k evades when using evade hud and what Auto gives out you can still evade most perks using dof+limber and ES while being open for 20 seconds after that till ES is back, honestly how it should be otherwise.
For pvm the evade debuff doesn't matter that much as the Main Healer shouldn't have so much agg from adds/boss that 500 evades suddenly means a lot.

Modify % Add. Nano Cost 30
Healing Efficiency 100%
Modify CriticalIncrease -50
Add. Dam. at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
evades at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200)
AAO at level 220 -550 (-500 at lvl 200) (note, should not affect MA skill as explained below)

This one is a mixed bag, 50% crit is the sweet spot that me and knuckles more or less agreed on is acceptable for zazen. Reducing AR tho whether in the form of MA or aao I've never really been a fan of, Bow MA will sit at 2.4k AR which is pretty bad for pvp and barely usable in pvm while MA will sit at 2.7k AR tops(both assume full AR setups of CC/CSS) meaning both won't be perking anything with 3k+ evades selfed. In pvp MAs just don't have the toolset to support low AR setups like docs do (dots+constant init debuffs+new nuke) and relying on specials like AS and SA to do any dmg besides regulars is not what I would call fun.

heal efficiency: 100%
crit %: -45% at 200 (-50% at 220)
nanocost %: +60%
add damage: -200 (220 at 220)
evades: -400 at level 200 (440 at 220)

These are what I came up with after looking at Knuckles proposed changes and takes into consideration pvm and pvp.
1.Scaling Crit is obvious and kind of a face palm that it wasn't already scaling to begin with while 50% gives MAs the choice to push up to around 40% crit in zazen at 220 *with proc*, pvp rules brings it down to 10-20% more inline with support profs.
2.Toned down damage debuffs gives pvm MAs more DPM while still debuffing perks/specials/regs in pvp.
3.Slightly lowered evade debuff gives pvm MAs abit of extra safety while still leaving zazen MAs with openings in pvp.
4.Increased nanocost is the drawback for lowered debuffs for pvp mainly and pvm if alone, Damage buffs cost alot so a increase in nanocost forces zazen MAs to choose between survival or extra dd before running out of nano.


Mostly just my viewpoint on zazen so feel free to point out any inaccurracies I made or mess with my proposed changes to make more streamline changes to zazen.

[nanoforcer]

If it was possible to differentiate pvp zazen and pvm zazen that would help alot when it come to balancing it i guess.
Perhaps the game mechanics could be used in a way so that when you attack or get attacked by another player it replaces the zazen stand you have in your ncu (if you have it buffed that is) with a pvp variant.
Make it last for x mins much like the offensive/defensive focus for nt's, but for the love of god just not for 30 mins, 2 mins perhaps at a time since it will refresh itself while you pvp

Or simply make a pvp / pvm variant that ppl will WANT to use in pvp so there is no need to force ppl with the mechanics above, only problem is that ppl will ofc want to use the best kind for all situations, hence perhaps the need to forced option above.

[Rockdizzle]

A quick dirty fix for that would prolly be changing zazen so it checks every 10 or so seconds if the MA has a flag or is in a duel/battlestation and refreshes a pvp version if either condition is met otherwise it would just refresh the pvm version. I'm sure its prolly harder than it sounds (atleast for checking duels) but still plenty of time to work out those kind of kinks in test before 18.7 hits live, same with fixing bugs that get around the zazen check.

[Rockleee]

I think the best idea is to use zazen for duels shortly to outheal maybe some soldoers while ams running( maybe we have still enough heal for that) but i belive that the best for pvp would be to not use bow setup, better to use normal fist and run as a glascanonon. Heals wont be enough i feel so kill your enemy with evades while he is trying to kill you. Its like crat style with less def and absorb or they have to start something else another stance like f.e.

Rockstance not because of my name )
Heal effi 20%
Crit increase 10% ( for better sa as and flurry nerf)
Def 200
Physical init 200
Nanocost 20%
And as punishment to get like - root and snear resist and maybe some
Nanoresist debuffs dont touch the stun resist pls
Would make us less effective vs nuke professions but gives us the ability to dodge more and a bit better heals because of the signet we lost. And maybe others

Or you give us for pvp 2 stances where we get def + heal effi and ar nerfed ( without crit ) a form of defensive stance
And a off stance where we get some combat stats ar boosted while loosing def ( but you should increase maybe better the heal ammount of the heals a bit higher and reduce a bit out of the zazen stance so no zazen stance user would be able to gain a bit more healing )

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I think you guys are kind of way off on a tangent here.

Let's be honest, the current iteration of Zazen works quite well.

I highly doubt Michi has the time or the drive to go to town on MA's right now.

The drawbacks of current Zazen are:

1. no crit
2. big evade debuff
3. big add dmg debuff

The current problem with zazen is that MA damage is nerfed quite badly.

So, the real question is:

Is Zazen out of balance?

If Zazen is out of balance, then there is an argument. If Zazen is close to balanced, but you don't like the modifiers, then we're OK.

[Rockleee]

I think it is close balanced, choose between dd or heal... our heal got better because of the normal and team heal you can cycle even without zazen. its fine i think i wont use it but it looks ok

[Rockdizzle]

Pvp wise zazen is pretty balanced, hard to get kills but hard to be killed while still having openings for others to exploit. No complaints from me about zazen in pvp, in fact I've been trying to keep it around the same power in pvp when looking at pvm.

For Pvm tho it's hard for me to call it balanced, sure the heals are great and a MA doesn't HAVE to stay in zazen but going from 2nd best DD (ignoring pets from pet profs) to last with a harder time pushing more DD due to 0% crit always and -550 add dmg on top is pretty harsh, I'm not gonna want to use a MA as my main healer or fill-in main healer if my/someone elses doctor with little to no DD gear can push 80-100k DPM more with current changes to docs and still heal more with half ass healing. Even a agent only lags behind in healing by 30-40k HPM but still has the Init debuffs from UBT to make it work while pushing 300k DPM easy. This is just my opinion but I don't feel the gains justify the drawbacks in pvm atm.

My question would be do we just look at 1 of the 2 situations call it balanced and leave or do we atleast try and adjust some stuff so users of zazen in pvm can feel satisfied?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

My question would be do we just look at 1 of the 2 situations call it balanced and leave or do we atleast try and adjust some stuff so users of zazen in pvm can feel satisfied?

Good question.

I don't know the answer. My feeling overall is that if people need DD they can call MA, and if people need a healer they can call an MA.

In all honesty DPS doesn't REALLY matter if you're the primary healer.... BUT if you're in a team that doesn't need healing then you should be able to switch gears and do some damage.

For example, if you're a doctor and the tank's HP isn't moving due to superior dmg mitigation, then if you aren't even trying to DPS you're just wasting people's time.

Of course, you could argue that if the tanks HP isn't moving that you're expecting the shades HP to instantly drop to 15% health and your heal finger is itchy... but realistically, you could just as well be spamming some damage and if the shade gets squished in one hit that's kinda his own fault.

The bottom line is, if you're a doc spamming heals, no-one will bat an eye if your DPM is <100k. But if you're a doc who casted ILC and BI twice on the raid and your DPM is <100k people are going to wonder wtf you were doing.

Well, I'd argue the same for MA. Lets just say for a moment that you start the raid as Zazen. After 5 minutes you realize the crat is on his game and the enf knows what he's doing. You swap out of Zazen and start beefing up your damage. Now you're doing better than doc damage with dot spam, but you can easily swap back to zazen (provided you don't get aggro) to heal when needed.

Buuuuut this is a risky move.

Lets say your tank is under pressure on a tricky pull and can't get a mongo off, crat gets some stray aggro, and just as you're about to shift to zazen, some stray aggro pops up and now you can't zazen. Crat dies and enf is now reliant on secondary heals.

Your raid mates are pissed at you and while it's technically not your fault you get the blame for not being in zazen and your team now requests that you (as the primary healer) stay in zazen the whole raid.

Now your DPM goes from 300k to 110k and you're kinda bored for the whole goddamn raid.

I guarantee this type of situation will happen more than ANYONE wants to admit.

So the question for me is: is zazen MA fulfilling enough to make people want to stay in Zazen for a whole raid, or is it just too goddamn boring to play to keep people in Zazen in which case the obvious risk is people shirking their responsibilities as healer to try to DPS instead?

Let me put it differently: If the risk of boredom is too high, MA's will refuse to play a healer, in which case ALL the effort for creating diversification of play will have been wasted.

So, imo using this reasoning it may be worth adjusting the numbers slightly to keep the prof interesting and fun to play with some element of the original toolset available so people don't opt out due to it being too boring to play.

[Amickson]

Zazen stance must be comparable to doc healing or noone will use it. The question is: can MA in zazen main heal raid like a doctor? For example sec42. If not, then this debate is useless. You don't need an offheal in AO and offheal with such debuffs like zazen even less.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Zazen stance must be comparable to doc healing or noone will use it. The question is: can MA in zazen main heal raid like a doctor? For example sec42. If not, then this debate is useless. You don't need an offheal in AO and offheal with such debuffs like zazen even less.

ya I see what you're saying.

I think it goes deeper though.

Doc has top of the line healing, top of the line emergency healing, but very importantly, doc has some insanely powerful damage mitigation.

Can MA match that? TBH, MA can match team healing and single target healing... but has exactly ZERO out of team healing (aside from single heal), Zero emergency heals, and zero area heals.... but, MA does have up to 2100 burst init debuffs for 30s I think (red dusk+incap).

[Cratertina]

Aye, the whole question is why would anyone want zazen MA in team. Docs can do more dd than ZMA. But those docs can also heal properlly all the time.

There needs to be a diffrent nerf, for example place a 2k runspeed snare on Ma, while keeping DD good.

[Rockdizzle]

So many questions lol.

I don't think zazen will feel boring at any point, it will mostly just feel underwhelming which for some could be just as bad. I'll admit I'm a damage/tank freak and profs like MA/Shade/Keep/Doc(oddly) make me want to push damage or tank. Not everyone is like me ofc but the feeling of playing a MA and barely pushing half it's original damage just for some alright heals would annoy me alot and will just make me want to log my doctor or agent to heal+DD while also having damage mitigation in their toolsets (certain FPs for agent, init debuff nano/procs for doc).

Maybe the problem I'm prolly having is the way leaving zazen works, not being able to enter zazen with agg is fine ofc but the nanodrain+cooldown really kills a MA wanting to enter and leave zazen on the fly to push DD making it kind of a 1 time thing per fight. MAs don't have amazing ND in fact without an imp its like 70-80 at 220 forcing an MA to first wait 10 seconds before their nano starts coming back then get enough nano thru stims/ND to enter zazen again and heal.


to amickson: If you mean if a zazen MA could fully replace a doc in hard raid as main healer than the answer depends really, you won't see MAs confidently healing APF sectors, 12man, DB3 or IPande(past zods) alone without enough damage mitigation, good enough tank or a side healer. They also lack any form of a "oh ****" emergency action like CH for Doc/Agent/Adv so a tank that's suddenly taking too much damage will eventually die unless they get lucky somehow.Instances like DB1, DB2, Alb etc a zazen MA is more than capable of healing alone with a decent tank and init debuffs.
As for Sector 42 I wouldn't count on zazen MAs healing it instead of docs anytime soon as 2 docs is usually needed to outheal the damage running to 1 of the sides and gen/AC afterwards

[McKnuckleSamwich]

putting a 2k snare on MA in zazen will completely invalidate the one venue it looks appropriate for (PVP) in which case it'll be about 95% useless.

TBH, the most obvious change I see to bring up healing to somewhere still shy of doc healing, but will give a bit more oh sh*t buttons, is to make both red dawn and harmonize Body + mind and the disharmony heal perk all do team heals in zazen with a substantial boost (imo) to harmonize body and mind.

The other thing that might be feasible is to add a new MA attack which operates the same as Tree of Enlightenment (from TOTW). An upgraded version could be either a direct buy from Ofab vendors, or part of a quest reward, but i'd say it could do exactly the same as ToE but boosted by 10x.

3750 heal/45s CD small direct damage to fighting target, and under zazen that would be a 8k heal on a 45s CD which is pretty reasonable.

More to the point though, if paired with red dawn, harmonize, team heal, and single matrix an MA could burst heal for
8k, 3k, 5k (say), 4k+3k HoT, 3k+3k HoT = ~26k in 3 seconds + 3k more from Team HoT, and most of that wouldn't be available again for 45s in comparison to doc who would have an ICH available again in 20s.

Tbh, if MA's took on the role of best TEAM healer in game vs doc who was the best SINGLE healer in game I don't think I would complain.

[Amickson]

And it still is not enough. If you really need a doc then you probably have tank (=enf) too. Other team members shouldn't get too much damage in such situation. Not to mention raid situation, let other teams just die?
For example - rigth now I'm playing LOTRO. There's 10 professions, every single of them have DPS setup. Add to that 4 of them get tank setup (2 main tanks for raids, 2 off tanks capable to tank 6mans dungeons). Then you have 4 healer setups, again 2 main healers and 2 offhealers. You need tanks/healers for most harder encounters, for raids buffers/debuffers too.
AO have 14 professions including 1 tank (enf) and 1 healer (doc). All others are dps or so called support (not really needed). Without more profs capable of tanking or healing you'll end with current enf + doc + maybe some more.

[Rockleee]

The problem i see at zazen is that yes ma can heal but it isnt a real heal profession.in instances where you go shade crat you can support in mitaar or db or something. But there is a cap. The cap i think starts at 12man goes over to ipande collector and all apfs (13.28.35.42). We cryed over Years for mor heals. How about killing all debuffs at zazen and set heal effi arround 25-40 % dunno what number would be fair.and use it as a usual buff. I dont see any point why a ma should take the position of the doc. There is no real reason for it

[Rockleee]

There is one more issue i would like to adress: there is the team matrix of ka and the real low ql team heals ... there are no good heal in between... i would like to see some addition to that

[McKnuckleSamwich]

^^ good call rockleee.

at least one team heal between the 1100ish req one and the top one would be good. 2 between would be ideal.

[Rockdizzle]

Same agreed, it's sad that Team Flourishing Heal was actually a new heal added in 18.7 to bridge the gap between TMoK and Greater Team Restore Essence but its still too big.

*gotta be careful tho in case people with docs see this and get mad lol*