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Thread: 18.7.0.24 Testlive notes.

  1. #41
    McKnuckle,

    I've read through all your posts, but I still see no basis for your argument other than you see a really big number and don't like it.

    Before you start calling something overpowered, bring something that's actually valid to the table. Three people with NT's have told you it isn't, so this discussion is moot.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    McKnuckle,

    I've read through all your posts, but I still see no basis for your argument other than you see a really big number and don't like it.

    Before you start calling something overpowered, bring something that's actually valid to the table. Three people with NT's have told you it isn't, so this discussion is moot.
    Sooo, because lemmings all jump off a cliff, they must be right because they're all doing it?

    If all your buddies start shooting heroin, it's right because they are all doing it?

    If you're in the infantry division, and you're marching into Russia in September and winters coming, the fact that there's 12000 troops with you makes it right?

    If 14 people say 1+1 = 3 they're right because there's 14 of them?

    3 NT's say NT's aren't OP, so NT's aren't OP!

    GREAT ARGUMENT I SEE WHY YOU'RE THE PROF.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountaingoat View Post
    McKnuckle, do you have an NT that you pvp with? You don't seem to grasp the longevity of NT's in a fight vs how slow our nukes are (attack/recharge). ONE counter is a huge deal because we don't have time for it. If what your asking for gets implemented, it will break the profession. Seriously. Three casts for 600 NR, that's 3s per cast = 9s (standing there eating an alpha) when our defense is either 25s or 44s. That's 25s or 44s to kill somebody or we lose. And 600 NR means will will also still be countered quite a bit, which as things stand currently is unacceptable. It also means we can't perk a lot of professions.

    If you don't like CB because of what other professions can land while it's active, then our nukes ought to check like IU does (53%). This would break our perking ability however. If you don't like NT's having nukes that will easily land, then our nukes should be WAAAAAYY faster and ideally casting would be multi threaded instead of single threaded. And our perks would still be broken. Alternatively, NT's could get healing or enough evades to be considered unperkable. But willy nilly nerfing CB and leaving everything else the same would, as I have said over and over, break the profession.

    FYI traders can debuff 6650 NR in pvm and maintain it permanently.
    I believe Sannz already mentioned that your perks are broken.

    I refuted this by alluding to the fact that most NT's in 18.6 are using HP/defensive setups. I 18.7 Michi is forcing you to use an AR setup to max out your nuke damage. This should, if I'm not mistaken, increase the probability of landing nukes.

    If you don't like one nuke being countered, ask for two lines of nukes.

    You don't need to debuff NR by 3k to get a reasonable counter rate.

    Just so I know... what is a reasonable counter rate?

    Some NT's think 0% resisted is a reasonable counter rate. But I disagree. I think 20-30% is a reasonable counter rate.

    But, even if you wanted a 100% land rate, you DO NOT need to debuff NR by more than about 1500 at the very very max - and that's if you don't intend of evolving out of the HP/def setup NT's seem to be attached to.

    You only need a 62% Nano differential to get a 100% land rate.

    Assuming you are attempting to get a decent nano attack rating on your nukes, Lets say you get 2800 MC skill for nuking, that means you only need to get your opponent down to:

    62% = self MC skill/(self MC skill+opponent NR)
    62% = 2800/2800+X
    0.62X+2800*0.62=2800
    2800-2800*0.62=0.62x
    x=2800*(1-0.62)/0.62 = 1716 NR

    So, vs engineer you'd only need to debuff NR by 300, vs MA you'd need to debuff NR by about 700-800, all other profs I assume are somewhere in between.

    When I said CB should be limited to a 600 debuff, I was bang on.

    If you don't understand Nano differential, have a read here: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...ht=nano+resist

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    GREAT ARGUMENT I SEE WHY YOU'RE THE PROF.
    It is a great argument, since you have nothing to base yours on. As the professional, it's my job to protect my profession from being unnecessarily nerfed because people have no idea what their talking about, and I stand by that word which I gave everyone when I took this responsibility.

    Your posts are usually pretty good, but now you're just being ridiculous. If you have nothing else constructive to say, and can't debate like an adult, take your crap out of my forum.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  5. #45
    Ok, Knuckle, take a deep breath.

    You keep banging on about NTs needing CB to land nanos in PvP. If only that were that easy.

    Why are def/hp setups so successful/widespread in 17.6 and earlier? Because NT AR is crap either way. Even if you go for an all out suicide MC setup.
    You "refuted" my claim that our perks are dependant on CB? Well, sorry, not everyone is multiboxing/hugging with a crat and a keeper on top in team to get high enough perk AR to actually land anything meaningful on anyone meaningful. Even in offensive MC setups. And I doubt you can land perks on any prof that'd matter in that situation either.


    With 17.7 there is supposed to be more MC available to NTs. That's nice and we NTs are very happy to see some movement. Take HH@B's NR out of the equation and the balance would be fine for nano casting. Sadly removing HH@B's NR would result in unbalancing a lot of other profs @ TL7, so I don't forsee any changes there.

    It still changes NOTHING in terms of landing perks tho. Another 100 or even 200 MC, if only it were that much, doesn't get use any closer to land our perks on anyone other than soldiers without using CB first.

    And finally, you really are missing the point Vinkera, Mountaingoat and the others have been trying to make: For "the masters of nuking" to actually need to debuff an Engineer's NR to consistently land nanos? As per your math? How messed up is that logic?
    What's next? Soldiers needing to stand still for 10sec to be able to use FA?


    And for the record, this is was the 3rd rewrite. Knuckle, you really don't make it easy to respond in a way that won't get me in trouble with our dear mod Ana.
    Last edited by sannz; Apr 14th, 2015 at 00:28:58.
    keep smiling
    Najade s, Najengi s, Najngi s, Najmp s, Shadysannz, Toccata, Frobos, Chaodoc, Najcrat, Najtank
    sannz - ENL - NR01-GOLF-11
    a time of changing has begun; the leaves are fallen and undone; inside my spirit starts to run; and all my fears are overcome. - Chiasm, Rewind, 2005

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by sannz View Post
    And finally, you really are missing the point Vinkera, Mountaingoat and the others have been trying to make: For "the masters of nuking" to actually need to debuff an Engineer's NR to consistently land nanos?

    I'm not missing the point. I'm saying that IS the point. Your version of "consistent" is a 100% land rate. MY version of consistent is a 70-80% land rate (you'll notice that when you're fighting with weapons that a 70-80% land rate is exceptionally good, I don't see why it should be any different for NT's)

    CB stacked 3x is -3k NR.

    I just showed you that you only need to debuff (an engineer) about 300 to get him into 100% nuke landing territory.

    If an MA has 2500ish NR, then you need to debuff a MA about 700-800 to get him into 100% nuke landing territory.

    So what you're saying, without actually saying it, is you somehow feel the need to defend the use of OVERDEBUFFING by a FULL ORDER OF MAGNITUDE, instead of finding an equitable solution that doesn't put NT's over the edge of "full retard". (recall that I said in my first post that as soon as CB is nerfed then we can start looking at ways to sort out the NR perkline - and I stand by that...)

    Now, what if I told you that nobody expects to perk evade profs.

    Evade profs are always much, much more difficult to perk, by design !!!!
    If your intent is to debuff evade profs so much that you can perk them, then I call that a fatal flaw.


    Quote Originally Posted by sannz View Post
    As per your math? How messed up is that logic?
    What's next? Soldiers needing to stand still for 10sec to be able to use FA?
    That's Ebags testing, if you don't like the logic, talk to FC about it, I'm just quoting numbers that have been derived from several thousand tests+observations.

    Edit: regarding perk checks... If NT MC AR is "crap" either way, maybe a reduced check for starfall is in order?

    In all honesty, it doesn't land with doctor or crat either, so a check reduction to say 50-60% might be feasible (in the case of NT's, you'd only need a max 1k NR debuff on CB and a 50% check would land vs anyone).
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Apr 14th, 2015 at 00:45:54.

  7. #47
    Knuckle you right, but as other have stated you need to take into account a number of other mechanics unique to NTs into consideration :

    - 18.6 and before : slow nature of nano casting : 70/80% landrate on a 5 sec or even 7 sec tripple is very risky. Other professions makes a 60/80% landrate workable by having a higher number of random rolls. They get closer to the expected statistical performance. Nt with same rates is too random. Also, if other profession doesn t rely on a higher number of roll for its damage, but say, perks, then it is an other on/off mechanics entirely which doesn't involve luck and risk.

    - more than one cb is never cast in pvp except vs enfos MAs and nr 2 peeps, amd you right, 1k debuff is allready overkill vs most prof (goin way beyond 100% landrates)

    - the 3 sec the nt spends debuffing his opponent is imo a balanced cost for the benefit. 9 sec spent for three cast is retarded. 700 nr / 3sec stackable twice might be a good balance in current 18.6.

    - a fairer system would be to grant 100% landrate on dmg nuke by lowering the nr check to say 1%, but add a calculation beetween nt mc skill vs nr to lower the final dmg of the nuke. That way nr and mc skill would matter again, but without messing around with randomness.

    PS. I think you are just disagreeing with NT's special design, but the point is that it is actually balanced as it is. It is just a different design alltogether. You might want to change the design and align it on how it work for other profs, and that's the way it's goin with this regular hit on cyberdeck thing, lockdown on nanos, etc. But in the end you are disagreeing with a design idea, not the actual balance. Current CB is well balanced around NT's current design. I don't think you should bother disagreeing with the design… you are just expected to nitpick on the numbers until they are right and give a fair chances to everyone in the PvP arena. In 18.6 and before, in this regard, CB has always been balanced. There is a reason all NR buff and debuff in game are generally three times more important then their evade / AR equivalent, and that's because devs originally knew better. People criticising NTs always forget that NT plays with a different set of rules and are harder to compare to other profs. With 18.7, it will be easier to compare… Have fun then
    Last edited by Djiax; Apr 14th, 2015 at 01:24:45.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    I'm not missing the point. I'm saying that IS the point. Your version of "consistent" is a 100% land rate. MY version of consistent is a 70-80% land rate (you'll notice that when you're fighting with weapons that a 70-80% land rate is exceptionally good, I don't see why it should be any different for NT's)

    CB stacked 3x is -3k NR.

    I just showed you that you only need to debuff (an engineer) about 300 to get him into 100% nuke landing territory.

    If an MA has 2500ish NR, then you need to debuff a MA about 700-800 to get him into 100% nuke landing territory.

    So what you're saying, without actually saying it, is you somehow feel the need to defend the use of OVERDEBUFFING by a FULL ORDER OF MAGNITUDE, instead of finding an equitable solution that doesn't put NT's over the edge of "full retard". (recall that I said in my first post that as soon as CB is nerfed then we can start looking at ways to sort out the NR perkline - and I stand by that...)

    Now, what if I told you that nobody expects to perk evade profs.

    Evade profs are always much, much more difficult to perk, by design !!!!
    If your intent is to debuff evade profs so much that you can perk them, then I call that a fatal flaw.




    That's Ebags testing, if you don't like the logic, talk to FC about it, I'm just quoting numbers that have been derived from several thousand tests+observations.

    Edit: regarding perk checks... If NT MC AR is "crap" either way, maybe a reduced check for starfall is in order?

    In all honesty, it doesn't land with doctor or crat either, so a check reduction to say 50-60% might be feasible (in the case of NT's, you'd only need a max 1k NR debuff on CB and a 50% check would land vs anyone).
    This is very simple...

    Nanos and weapons are different, so why are suggesting they should work the same?

    Nukes are also very slow, so why should I not land everything if I've taken valuable time out of a fight to debuff a target?

    You're comparing perks to nanos, again two different mechanics. Perks don't stop you from shooting me(or at least deal significantly less damage), but my debuff should be weaker than the perks you mentioned earlier.

    How can I say this politely... You're comparing a cabbage to a cantaloupe. They're both round, but very different in their own way.

    I also hardly see how "we" can sort out the Notum Repulsor perkline after "we" adjust Constant Barrage. There's no "we" asking for this, it's just you. You're basically telling us our profession should be broken because you don't like the amount we can debuff. I hardly believe other professions will gladly surrender Notum Repulsor if we suddenly had Constant Barrage nerfed. No way.

    My main question... Why do you care? It's already not possible to spam it anymore, and WE asked for that. Why is it suddenly your personal mission to ruin Constant Barrage right after we asked for it to be toned down?

    Let me also state, there will likely be a time when it needs to toned down more, but this is not it. In reality, you're talking about step 43, and when we're on step 2.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    This is very simple...

    Nanos and weapons are different, so why are suggesting they should work the same?
    I'm not suggesting they "work" the same.

    By design, they do work similarly. (See Ebag333's testing thread, and multiple others comparing AR differentials and hit/miss ratios.

    Generally speaking they do work exactly the same way, so me suggesting that they do is a moot point. The game doesn't care what I think. But it was programmed that way so I suspect the best way to handle the situation is FIRST to get acquainted with the mechanics so you know what you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    Nukes are also very slow, so why should I not land everything if I've taken valuable time out of a fight to debuff a target?
    Oh, I knew you'd get stuck on this. Well the short answer is that you need to choose your move wisely. Imagine if your nukes all had longer local CD's than they do. Well, it wouldn't make sense to burn them all during UWOS when only 40% of them would land would it? Well, just like every prof in AO who has perks that have a long(er) local CD than weapons/specials, we have to CHOOSE when to try to make a kill.

    If NT's just spam damage willy nilly, that's not good game design. Furthermore, if you just debuff defences so there are no defences, then spam damage willy willy, again, that's bad game design. In AO, everything comes at a price. Higher offense for lower defence, higher evades for lower HP. etc. So what's NT's trade off when you debuff ANY prof by 3k NR?

    More to the point however, if you want to compare nuke damage vs resists because your "time" is so precious casting, perhaps we should look at frequency of landed hits, no?

    Because any prof played also has a time investment: If I press fling shot while my opponent has DOF up, it's a less good time investment than if I press fling shot during my opponent has limber up.

    So, every prof except NT has to manage their time? NT's should just check to lower defences to nothing, then not waste any time pounding his opponent into the ground?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    You're comparing perks to nanos, again two different mechanics. Perks don't stop you from shooting me(or at least deal significantly less damage), but my debuff should be weaker than the perks you mentioned earlier.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I do agree that your debuff amount should be less than what it is. I don't know what the original reasoning was for CB to be such a colossal amount, but generally speaking I always want to find balance, and generally speaking, the way to find balance is to move away from extremes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    How can I say this politely... You're comparing a cabbage to a cantaloupe. They're both round, but very different in their own way.

    I also hardly see how "we" can sort out the Notum Repulsor perkline after "we" adjust Constant Barrage. There's no "we" asking for this, it's just you. You're basically telling us our profession should be broken because you don't like the amount we can debuff. I hardly believe other professions will gladly surrender Notum Repulsor if we suddenly had Constant Barrage nerfed. No way.

    My main question... Why do you care? It's already not possible to spam it anymore, and WE asked for that. Why is it suddenly your personal mission to ruin Constant Barrage right after we asked for it to be toned down?

    Let me also state, there will likely be a time when it needs to toned down more, but this is not it. In reality, you're talking about step 43, and when we're on step 2.
    You're free to express what you feel about my argument using whatever fruit/vegetable metaphor you like.

    When I say "we" I mean "the community". In case you aren't reading other forums, there are other people discussing notum repulsor and throwing around ideas that would tone this line down significantly and take it out of the "extreme".

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    Knuckle you right, but as other have stated you need to take into account a number of other mechanics unique to NTs into consideration :

    - 18.6 and before : slow nature of nano casting : 70/80% landrate on a 5 sec or even 7 sec tripple is very risky.
    The frequency of landrates makes no difference! frequency is frequency!

    Look, if I can dump 100k worth of damage into a target using weapons/weapon specials per minute, and he can resist/dodge 30% of it, I only do 70k damage.

    If an NT can spam 100k worth of damage into a target using 10 nukes that do 10k damage each, then, if the target resists 30% of it, the NT only does 70k damage.

    ITS THE SAME THING.

    The "Risk" you're talking about is only in perception. You intrinsically "feel" like a missed nuke is a greater "risk" because there's a larger time allotment for it. But there is JUST as big a risk in choosing when to fire your Full auto/burst/fling/AS! (AS is a weird one, but if reflects or -crit mods are higher on the opponent are up still you can lose out on a lot of damage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    Other professions makes a 60/80% landrate workable by having a higher number of random rolls. They get closer to the expected statistical performance. Nt with same rates is too random. Also, if other profession doesn t rely on a higher number of roll for its damage, but say, perks, then it is an other on/off mechanics entirely which doesn't involve luck and risk.
    70% is 70%. Of course you're correct by having a larger sample set for a weapon prof, but don't forget NT's are getting a ranged weapon next patch as well, so they to will statistically get a lot closer to that infinite sample number.

    Where you're wrong is for Perks. Anytime you press the perk button it's a big risk. The risk is 4-6x higher on average than any other special/nuke because the lockout is that much longer. A missed perk is a BIG loss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    - more than one cb is never cast in pvp except vs enfos MAs and nr 2 peeps, amd you right, 1k debuff is allready overkill vs most prof (goin way beyond 100% landrates)

    - the 3 sec the nt spends debuffing his opponent is imo a balanced cost for the benefit. 9 sec spent for three cast is retarded. 700 nr / 3sec stackable twice might be a good balance in current 18.6.
    OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    - a fairer system would be to grant 100% landrate on dmg nuke by lowering the nr check to say 1%, but add a calculation beetween nt mc skill vs nr to lower the final dmg of the nuke. That way nr and mc skill would matter again, but without messing around with randomness.
    Not sure what you're getting at here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djiax View Post
    PS. I think you are just disagreeing with NT's special design, but the point is that it is actually balanced as it is. It is just a different design alltogether. You might want to change the design and align it on how it work for other profs, and that's the way it's goin with this regular hit on cyberdeck thing, lockdown on nanos, etc. But in the end you are disagreeing with a design idea, not the actual balance.
    Yes that's correct.
    I also disagree with Notum repulsor line, and for the fifth time, the way to move forward with balance is to remove the extremes and focus on balance within an envelope.

    Just as a thought exercise: how long have NT's been complaining about Notum Repulsor line? If any NT has ever complained about it, my argument is valid: move away from extremes.

  11. #51
    Here's the problem...

    What we have with Constant Barrage is a band-aid fix for a band-aided problem. You're suggesting we just rip one out of the middle instead of starting from the top, hence why you have strong disagreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Oh, I knew you'd get stuck on this. Well the short answer is that you need to choose your move wisely. Imagine if your nukes all had longer local CD's than they do. Well, it wouldn't make sense to burn them all during UWOS when only 40% of them would land would it? Well, just like every prof in AO who has perks that have a long(er) local CD than weapons/specials, we have to CHOOSE when to try to make a kill.

    If NT's just spam damage willy nilly, that's not good game design. Furthermore, if you just debuff defences so there are no defences, then spam damage willy willy, again, that's bad game design. In AO, everything comes at a price. Higher offense for lower defence, higher evades for lower HP. etc. So what's NT's trade off when you debuff ANY prof by 3k NR?
    Now you're starting to get it. From an offensive standpoint, that's what NT's do, because it's all we have right now.

    Of my 3 220's, my NT has.. the lowest run speed, the lowest HP (depending on setup, but she does now), and the fewest offensive perk actions. However, of my 3 220's, I wouldn't even think twice about who to choose as a killer, because that's ALL she can do.

    I don't think most people realize the mechanical flaws involved with this profession...

    Expanding offensive options is certainly on that list, and something I'd really like to address next. We have some RK nukes that can be considered useful based on what they do, but high NR check and a recharge that can effectively be compared to an eternity make them all but useless. We also still have this Offensive / Defensive focus that should be more well defined. Does "offensive option" mean just stack more damage? Not really. Some ways yes, but why not develop more tactical ideas? Michi has an awesome start with the delayed nukes. Why can't we brainstorm other things like that?

    But, even before that, we have the mechanical flaw of not being able to cast anything even if it's 1 point off. Should some nukes be castable OE? I think so.

    However, if we're going there, we should look at how to effectively address nano regeneration. That was band-aided with perks, and PNH being pre-SL doesn't come anywhere close to enough on its own. Izgimmer's Wealth helps, but that doesn't help lower level NT's. I'd say from my own soloing experience (since I solo leveled from TL 5 to 200), that NT's that no longer depend on AoE nukes (another thing I hate to a degree, by the way) and switch to SL nukes are most affected by this. It is near impossible for them to endurance nuke for more than a few minutes.

    I could honestly sit here and list several more, and in other places I have. All of them affecting NT game play specifically, and at every level range, 1-220. I don't think anyone disagrees that the number is really high, but until we get there, it has to stay as-is for now. There are much more glaring things that need adjusting before we can consider that a reasonable change. You're not thinking totally wrong, you're just way way too many steps ahead.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  12. #52
    Ok fine.

    I'm not that stuck on it and I don't really care. I appreciate your argument that it's a Band-Aid fix and maybe I am trying to take the wrong Band-Aid off first.

    I still retain the opinion that CB is full retard, but I'll stop badgering this forum about it - it appears that there's some awareness about it and I think that's all I can really ask for at this point.

  13. #53
    With only one nuke getting the benefit of high matcrea skill making it do more damage it might be only pvm dmg setups pushing for it and even then you lose add nanodmg from armor making less dmg on other nukes.

    edit. and lower damage also on the nuke that benefits from high matcrea...
    Last edited by Puheenjohtaja; Apr 14th, 2015 at 08:20:31. Reason: reason
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Puheenjohtaja View Post
    With only one nuke getting the benefit of high matcrea skill making it do more damage it might be only pvm dmg setups pushing for it and even then you lose add nanodmg from armor making less dmg on other nukes.

    edit. and lower damage also on the nuke that benefits from high matcrea...
    I calculated the difference between using GIVA at 2600+ and 3000+ damage range yesterday.

    I determined that, in the proper setup, the 3000+ range does do more median damage, but also hurts IU's median damage range by 1650ish, (in my case 8% damage loss minimum, and multiplying it by 3) largely invalidating the effort. You would also have to divert several perks away from key functionality like nano regeneration, again invalidating the effort.

    We can therefore determine the ideal damage setup is still maintaining 2600+ MC with as few MC adding items as possible, and stacking + % Nano Damage everywhere you can possibly stuff it. Which makes me feel the need to point out our OFAB ring doesn't add % Nano Damage, while the very similar MP ring does:

    NT's:
    http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267575&ql=300

    MP's:
    http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=267559&ql=300

    I think it would be a valid addition to our ring, or at least more MC.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Sooo, because lemmings all jump off a cliff, they must be right because they're all doing it?

    If all your buddies start shooting heroin, it's right because they are all doing it?

    If you're in the infantry division, and you're marching into Russia in September and winters coming, the fact that there's 12000 troops with you makes it right?

    If 14 people say 1+1 = 3 they're right because there's 14 of them?

    3 NT's say NT's aren't OP, so NT's aren't OP!

    GREAT ARGUMENT I SEE WHY YOU'RE THE PROF.
    I am reminded of that time when "3sec AS is OP" was the main crux of every argument. Turns out that "3sec AS" was not OP, but 10 sec AS/FA/burst/fling was, but noone cared because the majority of players weren't NT

    We can reitterate from back when it was introduced; it takes a very long time to stack up the charges of CB to get to the total 3k. During which negligable damage is dealt. Now consider what professions you're likely to face up against. Will they all be casting hostile nanos at you or are they generally using some sort of weapon based attack? What's the split, generally? 90% weapons (+non-NR defence perks), 10% nanos? Therein lies the difference in how much weapon evading defences can be debuffed, it's by far the most common way to receive/deal damage. Is 3k too much? Dunno, probably not because it doesn't really matter beyond a certain point anyway. Would it be more fair if it was 500/1000/1500? Would it matter?
    Last edited by Mastablasta; Apr 14th, 2015 at 13:24:20.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  16. #56
    Make NT deck check how much you got matcea and add some nanodamage percentage based on the numbers you got. Pewpew
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  17. #57
    That's an interesting concept.

    It does, however add up to 6% already. What would a fair number be? Also, if we look at other weapons, no one else really gets that substantial of a damage boosting stat on theirs.

    If we are going for an all out + % Nano damage setup, I think we can reasonably sacrifice armor / items that really don't do much good in other areas as a fair compromise. The setup I have in my signature is what I mean. I had to stuff 180 MC into unusual spots (for me, anyway) to get it high enough, because the + %Nano Damage items don't help MC much.

    I think that kind of creates a happy balance of power unintentionally. I still don't see much of a problem adding it to the OFAB ring, however. Even trade off the AAD for it or something, if it would seem to good with that addition.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  18. #58
    6% is pretty small if were suppose to go max nanoskillsetup meaning not that much nanodmg % gear. Could even boost it for lower level decks also since lowbies have way less % nanodmg gear or perks. Going nanoskills mostly means less hp in setup but I guess there would be need some golden middleroad to make it work. I always found nanodeck boring as hell in its current form with only few ways to customize and the -nanocost isnt even used by anyone.
    [Robosapiens - 220eng] [Melchran - 220nt] [Mirkku - 207agent] [Litina -157doc] [Fatina -157fix] [Notatina - 116trader] [Lotina - 110nt] [Notina - 95enf] [Tupu - 95sold] [Hotina 76agent] [Clotclown - 43agent] [Melchram - 30agent] [Jytina 21trader]

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post


    Oh, I knew you'd get stuck on this. Well the short answer is that you need to choose your move wisely. Imagine if your nukes all had longer local CD's than they do. Well, it wouldn't make sense to burn them all during UWOS when only 40% of them would land would it? Well, just like every prof in AO who has perks that have a long(er) local CD than weapons/specials, we have to CHOOSE when to try to make a kill.

    If NT's just spam damage willy nilly, that's not good game design. Furthermore, if you just debuff defences so there are no defences, then spam damage willy willy, again, that's bad game design. In AO, everything comes at a price. Higher offense for lower defence, higher evades for lower HP. etc. So what's NT's trade off when you debuff ANY prof by 3k NR?

    More to the point however, if you want to compare nuke damage vs resists because your "time" is so precious casting, perhaps we should look at frequency of landed hits, no?

    Because any prof played also has a time investment: If I press fling shot while my opponent has DOF up, it's a less good time investment than if I press fling shot during my opponent has limber up.

    So, every prof except NT has to manage their time? NT's should just check to lower defences to nothing, then not waste any time pounding his opponent into the ground?
    Boom there it is. You say all the above but still fail to conceptualize that NT's have no longevity in fights. We CANNOT WAIT for the best time to attack because we are PERKABLE, HAVE NO HEALING, HAVE AVERAGE HP, and rely on VERY SHORT BUT STRONG SHIELDS to stand up to opponents. We also attack VERY slowly with a single threaded combat system. An NT does not have the luxury of choosing when to exploit weakness in enemies; it is max damage every time all the time because there is no real alternative strategy. Thus CB.

    Want CB nerfed? Then suggest an alternative system that doesn't break NT's like you are currently suggesting. I have already suggested several variations. Themes include longer fight survivability, MUCH faster nuking, or lower check on ALL NT nukes comparable to Izgimmer's Ultimatum. Another fantastic idea from Dijax is to make all NT nukes check 1% and let NR determine how much damage is done. As others have said, you seem to be stuck on the number amount CB debuffs rather than the functionality of how it incorporates into the the NT toolset.

  20. #60
    What is the problem, will nt be somewhat OP? Land nukes on advies and fixerz?

    If anything Nts require global buffs until they are at comperable levels to other profs...

    Offcorse to professions that can only be killed by NT, these buffs are a direct threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

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