18.7.0.24 Testlive notes.

[Poko]

Vinkera..Didnt you say something about Kicker of Kell somehwere? i cant seem to find it..but oh my would that be fun

[Vinkera]

Vinkera..Didnt you say something about Kicker of Kell somehwere? i cant seem to find it..but oh my would that be fun

I certainly did.

It's another one of those odd things that kinda sorta exist, but isn't in game.

If you look at it, we kind of lost a nemisis nano with the loss of the grid armor nukes. This would be a nice option in open PVP, since we'd prefer to keep an opponent (or opponets) at as much of a distance as possible. Although it's only a 2 second stun, it could be the difference between life and death.

I recall getting overtaken by 4 people at once in an open PVP zone, and had I had this nano, I think things would have turned out a little different. Such as, possibly getting a chance to kite them, use NS2 and kill at least one of them quickly, or just turn and run.

It would be nice to have as an option in the future. Not really high on my priority list, but I've thought about it.

[nanoforcer]

I've been harrased with that nano several times, on test. Damned CoT ^.^

[Vinkera]

One thing I wanted to touch on at some point is Roots. The only catch is, adjusting roots would also affect Bureaucrats, Fixers, Traders, and Agents, because all roots share the same nanoline.

Basically, I would like to see our roots have recharge reduced, and line cool down added.

Now, I've looked over some roots from other professions, and have determined that a recharge of 2 seconds and line cooldown of 5.5 seconds seems to be the best for all. Rooters can enjoy the benefit of being able to execute other nanos faster. Those that can't root can look at this from a perspective of.. the line cool down itself is actually a bit of a nerf. It would actually increase the time between being able to re-root someone.

Why not a longer line cooldown? In both PVM and PVP alike, Fixers, Crats, Traders, Agents and NT's have to be generally more tactical to survive. There are already enough root resistances and root breaking items / Nanos available to counter that important part of our toolset, in my opinion. PVM wise, those in a situation where rooting a mob is absolutely necessary to survive, also know how frequently roots like to break when you least want them to, and need to be refreshed.

With Traders and Crats having reduced durations on their debuffs, I think they could benifit nearly as much as NT's from a change like this.

What do you guys think?

[Puheenjohtaja]

Not sure if its been up here yet but wasnt nt blinds suppose to be free from the blindresist util curse? They dont make your screen go black anymore but they still get resisted with 110% efficiency. Make em work so def nt might work some day again.

[Vinkera]

Not sure if its been up here yet but wasnt nt blinds suppose to be free from the blindresist util curse? They dont make your screen go black anymore but they still get resisted with 110% efficiency. Make em work so def nt might work some day again.

I personally think those and the speed preservation units are pretty stupid items. I think they should be nerfed very hard, or deleted even. I also think Notum Repulsor falls under this category cheese items / perks in this game. It should be removed (my opinion) or reduced to 2 max for total of 1200 NR and debuff your nanoskills equal to the NR gain.

I say nerf / remove them. Professions have these tools for a reason. Giving 100+ % resistance is bad mechanics, conceptually. Also, allowing any profession to become permanently 100% immune to Nano Technicians is just clearly not fair.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I personally think those and the speed preservation units are pretty stupid items. I think they should be nerfed very hard, or deleted even. I also think Notum Repulsor falls under this category cheese items / perks in this game. It should be removed (my opinion) or reduced to 2 max for total of 1200 NR and debuff your nanoskills equal to the NR gain.

I say nerf / remove them. Professions have these tools for a reason. Giving 100+ % resistance is bad mechanics, conceptually. Also, allowing any profession to become permanently 100% immune to Nano Technicians is just clearly not fair.

I agree entirely.

But I also think that until constant barrage is nerfed HARD, there's no reason not to have the other extreme in game.

Basically, constant barrage justifies Notum repulsor in it's current form.

Make constant barrage more reasonable... then remove/alter NR.

https://tl.aoitems.com/item/259357/

Until that number looks more realistic... by all means, keep NR perks in game.

-3000NR for 1 minute is just downright retarded. in comparison, the best debuffs in game which any prof can do that directly lowers the defence of a target in order that their main weapon line lands easier are:

Keeper (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 750 AAD and EC for I think 30 for combined total out of 2 minutes (some last longer with longer recharge tho)
soldier (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 700 dodge range for 18s I think/1 minute
shade has two methods: blur which only does -220 for a short period, but spirit phylactery fully perked does I think 406 AAD and can keep that up full time on target
trader: can keep a target debuffed but 350 AAD permanently


Base on those numbers, I'd say if constant barrage was nerfed down to say, -200NR per cast, stackable 3x for a total of -600 NR for 1 minute with a 2 minute lockout, that would be more reasonable.

Then we could start looking at removing the NR line.

[Vinkera]

I agree entirely.

But I also think that until constant barrage is nerfed HARD, there's no reason not to have the other extreme in game.

Basically, constant barrage justifies Notum repulsor in it's current form.

Make constant barrage more reasonable... then remove/alter NR.

https://tl.aoitems.com/item/259357/

Until that number looks more realistic... by all means, keep NR perks in game.

-3000NR for 1 minute is just downright retarded. in comparison, the best debuffs in game which any prof can do that directly lowers the defence of a target in order that their main weapon line lands easier are:

Keeper (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 750 AAD and EC for I think 30 for combined total out of 2 minutes (some last longer with longer recharge tho)
soldier (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 700 dodge range for 18s I think/1 minute
shade has two methods: blur which only does -220 for a short period, but spirit phylactery fully perked does I think 406 AAD and can keep that up full time on target
trader: can keep a target debuffed but 350 AAD permanently


Base on those numbers, I'd say if constant barrage was nerfed down to say, -200NR per cast, stackable 3x for a total of -600 NR for 1 minute with a 2 minute lockout, that would be more reasonable.

Then we could start looking at removing the NR line.

We already had this discussion, and 3 people disagreed with you then. Due to our single-threaded, slow damage; I see nothing wrong with Constant Barrage. If anything, it should actually check lower vs NR.

I'm not sure most people really get what I mean by, "single-threaded". Let me break it down... When I need emergency defense, I cast one of two nanos... If I need to refresh absorbs, I cast a nano... When I need to debuff the target, I cast one of multiple nanos... If I get rooted, I cast a nano... If I need to root/calm something, I cast a nano... If I actually want to do damage, I cast a nano... All with cast times / recharges that I need to consider, because recharge of a nano can actually be the difference between life and death. Casting NR debuffs against a player is actually something we're not that fond of doing. We do it because we have to.

You could compare NT's loosely to Soldiers, and I often do. However, they have longer duration defense and light healing capability. NT's don't, and you should expect our attacks to always land if you pick a fight with us. That goes for PVP and PVM.

However, PVM and Notum Repulsor are very unbalanced for us. Some mobs have extremely high NR, to the point where they can counter nearly everything, but not usually IU. If a mob has that level of NR, then -3000 is actually not sufficient to debuff it. The same goes for Notum Repulsor. If you stack your NR super high, then perk Notum Repulsor even a few times, you completely invalidate our tools and eventually our damage capability completely. That is a cheesy, unbalanced, and broken mechanic.

I sarcastically tossed around "give me a perk line with -8000 weaponskill debuff for 20K AAD". That's what Notum Repulsor actually is against offensive nano casters. It needs to go, but that still does not justify weakening our Constant Barrage. Constant Barrage, while not perfect, does address some of our PVM issues also, and therefore should not be touched, unless it's made stronger.

[sannz]

[lots of good content]...
I sarcastically tossed around "give me a perk line with -8000 weaponskill debuff for 20K AAD". That's what Notum Repulsor actually is against offensive nano casters. It needs to go, but that still does not justify weakening our Constant Barrage. Constant Barrage, while not perfect, does address some of our PVM issues also, and therefore should not be touched, unless it's made stronger.

I almost agree. MY problem with Notum Repulsor isn't it's functionality as such, but the cost. The nano skill debuff is too cheap compared to the NR gain. If it were more along the lines of 1:1 it would look better.
BUT, that only applies to Patch 17.6 and earlier. With 17.7 Michi intends to make casting top nanos easier for a lot of professional who can profit a lot from Notum Repulsor. Keepers for instance, will be able to freely perk NR1 and still cast their top buffs while only needing half the swaps they would use now - if they even maxed their nano skills. With heavy swapping they might even be able to pull off their top buffs under (17.6) NR2 - selfed!

Besides that the scaling is off, the first 2 perks give way too much for how cheap they are.

So, back to the topic of CB: I would love to see it go. It really is too strong a debuff, especially when stacked. Why should it not be removed? Because a single item (HH@B), a single perk line (Notum Repulsor) and a single perk defense mechanic (AAD + NR = Perk Def) require the CB nano line to remain in the game.
That and too low nano skills compared to the mass of NR buffs and equippment.

As long as it is impossible to even perk an offensively set up engineer with any NR related perks then CB still has its place in the game. And we all know engineers have some of THE most crappy NR in this game.

And that, McKnuckleSamwich, is why you can moan all you like, but CB *needs* to stay.

[Vinkera]

While that addresses the PVP side, PVM wise we are depenant on it in some situations.

Trash mobs in ipande are a great example. Some are rather difficult to land anything but IU on. It would seem then that their Nano Resist is somewhere in the range of 3-5K. That's not really a problem with with the mob, since we have the tools to counter it. Their high NR forces us to take time out to get some debuffs going, as it should.

Although, the high NR situations are limited, it could be very useful to have an NT around for punching through that last DB Quest turret, for example. Swap Hags for getting Biodome keys are another good example.

I know if you simply look at the number, Constant Barrage looks over powered. PVM wise, it actually isn't. If you're looking at raw numbers, Traders are able to more than double CB 3. Crat's can debuff NR also, but are a little less dependant on offensive Nanos for their general survival, and as such debuff NR for a lower total.

Another way to look at it, is most players in awful gear can at least land regular shots on many mobs/bosses. Defensive wise, mobs generally are more likely to counter nanos. Whether that's based on how NR is calculated or mobs just having more NR than evades, I'm not 100% sure. What is obvious is mobs are more resistant to Nanos, and professions that depend on offensive Nanos should have the tools to counter NR, to make use of their other tools. That is an extra step, but I think that provides a more complex play style, and people opting to play Crat/NT/Trader, etc aren't looking for a simple approach.

The numbs look big, but PVM wise they certainly are warranted.

[Mountaingoat]

I agree entirely.

But I also think that until constant barrage is nerfed HARD, there's no reason not to have the other extreme in game.

Basically, constant barrage justifies Notum repulsor in it's current form.

Make constant barrage more reasonable... then remove/alter NR.

https://tl.aoitems.com/item/259357/

Until that number looks more realistic... by all means, keep NR perks in game.

-3000NR for 1 minute is just downright retarded. in comparison, the best debuffs in game which any prof can do that directly lowers the defence of a target in order that their main weapon line lands easier are:

Keeper (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 750 AAD and EC for I think 30 for combined total out of 2 minutes (some last longer with longer recharge tho)
soldier (needs to land 3 perk debuffs) which total for 700 dodge range for 18s I think/1 minute
shade has two methods: blur which only does -220 for a short period, but spirit phylactery fully perked does I think 406 AAD and can keep that up full time on target
trader: can keep a target debuffed but 350 AAD permanently


Base on those numbers, I'd say if constant barrage was nerfed down to say, -200NR per cast, stackable 3x for a total of -600 NR for 1 minute with a 2 minute lockout, that would be more reasonable.

Then we could start looking at removing the NR line.

You just said this in the last testlive thread. I'll copy and past what I said there about CB:

No, no, and no. Reason: The very short nature of NT fights. A non healing, perkable profession, with 1 or 2 very short defense mechanisms, that relies on sheer damage to win fights before defense runs out cannot afford a drastic increase in fight durations without breaking the profession. Especially with cast capped/long recharge nukes.

The only thing that needs changing for CB is that it should be removable out of fight with kits.

[Vinkera]

As a slight aside, I'll leave this thread open with the latest patch seeing as it's just bug fixes and such.

Also, if anyone is available to go through everything and look for any outstanding NT bugs, I will update our bug post. I will be looking myself this evening.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Another way to look at it, is most players in awful gear can at least land regular shots on many mobs/bosses.

Not true at all.


I recently took my endgame 220/70/30 crat out of his CSS set and put him into CS suit with a spattering of evadey items, perked out of PM and CoLa (still got full control alphas) and with crat pistol equipped he is regularly missing many boss mobs.

I can't recall all the bosses that I checked the miss rate on, but for certain beast was the worst. I'm talking about 3-4 missed shots in a row, then one lands.
@ Sannz, I don't understand your logic. First you say you don't like CB, it's overpowered, then you say because of HHAB, NR perkline, and because perks checking NR are NR+AAD vs skill ... these reasons justify CB being in game?

I'm not sure you are thinking properly, because I honestly can't see the relevance of anything you posted. I can propose a counter argument that is much more influential than any that you've just cited.

If HHAB offers too much NR for you, perhaps your argument should be that HHAB loses the NR modifier?
There has been much discussion over the NR perkline, and most people want to see the PERKLINE toned down.
If the perk check of including AAD is a reason for keeping CB in game... perhaps you'd like to address some high AAD profs, or high AAD situations?

For example:
My MA teamed with crat+keeper has static 2k+ AAD (more AAD than my engi has static NR)
My crat can get 4800 AAD boosts, which is well more than my engi has NR

If you really think that CB is justified because you can't land a NR checking perk against an Engineer, perhaps you need to address your own setup. Afaik, most NT's use an HP setup. So, if you're not interested in raising your own MC check skill, how can you possibly blame your incompetence on another class - and then prop up your argument by justifying the continuation of an OP mechanic just to satisfy your own inability to create a competitive setup? That's like saying:

Camp guides hand out flamethrowers.
when I go camping I always take a flamethrower.
I don't know how to build a campfire, so I just torch the forest.
You want to take away flamethrowers? But I need it because I need to torch forests and I don't know how to light a fire without it.

Consider the obvious problem. The mechanic FAR overcompensates for low AR setups (which happens to be what everyone was using because of the stupid mechanic anyway), but now, Michi built some new nanos which require you to raise your MC AR. Now you WILL be able to perk engineers because the game mechanics have forced you to. Now, do you need CB?

And further to this, if NR perkline is removed... then do you need CB?

The PVM argument is valid to some extent... but if you only need to lower NR by 1k to perk/land stuff regularly... why is it necessary to debuff it by 3k?

[sannz]

@ Sannz, I don't understand your logic. First you say you don't like CB, it's overpowered, then you say because of HHAB, NR perkline, and because perks checking NR are NR+AAD vs skill ... these reasons justify CB being in game?

Exactly. It is a bad tool that is vailidated by other bad mechanics and items.

I'm not sure you are thinking properly, because I honestly can't see the relevance of anything you posted. I can propose a counter argument that is much more influential than any that you've just cited.

If HHAB offers too much NR for you, perhaps your argument should be that HHAB loses the NR modifier?
There has been much discussion over the NR perkline, and most people want to see the PERKLINE toned down.
If the perk check of including AAD is a reason for keeping CB in game... perhaps you'd like to address some high AAD profs, or high AAD situations?

The perk defense check is one issue. The earlier official perk rebalancing documents have addressed this issue by proposing the removal of AAD in the defense check calculations.
Sadly, the removal of AAD on NR based perks is only a dirty fix as this issue is mostly based around the itemization (and availability) of Nanoskills and AAO vs NR and AAD.

And further to this, if NR perkline is removed... then do you need CB?

Never said it needs to be removed, but adjusted. And no, its mere adjustment alone does - in my opinion - not invalidate CB.

The PVM argument is valid to some extent... but if you only need to lower NR by 1k to perk/land stuff regularly... why is it necessary to debuff it by 3k?

Your PvM mechanics knowledge seems to ignore that CB does nothing to perk landablitly. Use CB 3x on beast, and you won't land any more of your NR based perks. However if you increase your nano skills and AAO enough you will land perks, regardless of your skill gain being way lower than the supposed 3k NR debuff from 3x CB.
NR perk def seems - in PvM - independent of the actual NR value of the mob.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ok cool, thanks for the clarification.

One question/clarification: I admit I don't have a lot of experience regarding PVM mechanics of CB.. in fact, it's limited to occurrences when I have been teamed with an NT and actually paid attention to what was happening, which is pretty rare - in fact, I just assumed that you only needed to lower NR by 1k in order to land stuff vs beast.

So, I would appreciate a more investigative analysis on beast. And, to help this along I will tell you my experience with NR debuffs.

Whenever I am NOT on my crat (and on my doctor), I always request, specifically, that the crat in the team use DMW. I find that when a crat uses DMW that I can:

1. land dots on first or second try
2. land starfall
3. land mistreatment/the dot perk
4. I find that overall damage goes up since crat spends less of his time casting debuffs, and more nukes land
5. team nanofeast/bot confinement land (in general)

Dead man walking reduces NR by 410

Generally I find a -410 adjustment to NR to be sufficient for most bosses, incomplete list coming, these are only those I can recall, notably:

Aune in DB2
Beast (but still he resists some stuff)
Xan in 12m
TNH
any Pandemonium miniboss/subjugator/Zod
Any Boss in DB3
Possibly the boss in DB1 but I find getting the boss in range of the tick at the right time to be difficult

On this list, the only mob I really feel I could use MORE than 410 -NR on is Beast; but I don't feel that only having -410 NR is hurting me, more precisely, having -410 NR on beast is a significant help.

Now, please be honest here, but can you provide me with a similar list/observation/experience that you as an NT feel more than -410 NR is needed vs any boss/PVM instance in game?

[sannz]

Now, please be honest here, but can you provide me with a similar list/observation/experience that you as an NT feel more than -410 NR is needed vs any boss/PVM instance in game?

I *can* tell you that I could not land any DD Starfall Perks (read: those after DwL) on Beast with 2.7k AR (MC incl. aao). Not without CB running on Beast, not with 1 CB running on Beast, not with 2 CB running on Beast, and not with 3 CB running on Beast.

How much AR did you have on your toons with the perks you describled?

Could DMW behave differently than CB? Might be an entry in Teh Secret Nerftable™.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I *can* tell you that I could not land any DD Starfall Perks (read: those after DwL) on Beast with 2.7k AR (MC incl. aao). Not without CB running on Beast, not with 1 CB running on Beast, not with 2 CB running on Beast, and not with 3 CB running on Beast.

How much AR did you have on your toons with the perks you describled?

Could DMW behave differently than CB? Might be an entry in Teh Secret Nerftable™.

My doctor has about 2.4k AR with pistol (90% HP setup, 10% extra nanoskills) with about 50ish points over the req for ICH. So approximately 2200 MM/BI. I'm not sure how much MC that is but I'd bet it's around 2.2k.

Of course, my doc would always be in a team with a crat so AAO would be in the 400 range (CP+IHM)

Now that you say it though, I doubt my doc would be landing starfall past dazzle vs beast either. Starfall is generally pretty difficult to land. On my crat, with 6 pieces CS, I can't land the damage perks vs any boss that I can think of without other drains... i.e. shade draining Xan of 400ish AAD etc.

So, basically what you're saying is even with CB... you're having the same problem.

SO, an OP mechanic isn't helping.

Which means that the culprit is high AAD. Which matches well with my observation that even normal attacks are missing beast.

I'll just go out on a limb here and say that I think Beast probably has reasonably high NR (since it often takes 3+ casts to refresh malaise on him in my experience) which probably puts him somewhere near 3k NR and with DMW it is far easier to refresh which would bring him much closer to parity for dots/debuffs/nukes, but based on the inability to land regulars and perks even with 3xCB running, it probably means he has more than 2.5k (probably 2.8-3k) AAD.

So, if we were to use Beast as the worst possible scenario by which to adjust CB, even then a -600 NR (what I originally proposed) would be fairly reasonable.

It appears nothing except AAD drains will help the perks land.

Here's a quick list of stuff that will help that:
1. Shade (SP line) -406 AAD (I think) (100% uptime capability)
2. Trader (Corp Protection) -300AAD (100% uptime capability)
3. Keeper (HM line) -250AAD (1m/4m I think)
4. Shade (Blur) -220AAD (short)
5. Dreadloch remodulator -200AAD 100% proc= 100% uptime potentially
6. Dreadloch panther -200AAD (proc)
7. MA - Flower of life (too short to be useful) -350 - -450AAD
8. Opi breed perk - 150 AAD (3s/2m I think)
9. (18.7) Crat - pressure matrix -110AAD (proc)
10. crat - improved red tape -60 AAD (30s/45s)
Not sure of others.

I reckon shade+trader in 18.7 will result in beast being much closer to perkable, but still may need a few NR debuffs to go with it (and possibly up to 2.5-3k NR to actually make it perkable)

[sannz]

And all that is news for what reasons again? Noone really cares about CB in PvM. Sure, one can land nanos easier, and it used to be important for Biodome. But it is not essential for PvM.

It is important for PvP. As stated already stated by varipus other NTs.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

If it's important for PVP then it should be balanced for PVP, NOT PVM.

Thank you for agreeing...

[Mountaingoat]

McKnuckle, do you have an NT that you pvp with? You don't seem to grasp the longevity of NT's in a fight vs how slow our nukes are (attack/recharge). ONE counter is a huge deal because we don't have time for it. If what your asking for gets implemented, it will break the profession. Seriously. Three casts for 600 NR, that's 3s per cast = 9s (standing there eating an alpha) when our defense is either 25s or 44s. That's 25s or 44s to kill somebody or we lose. And 600 NR means will will also still be countered quite a bit, which as things stand currently is unacceptable. It also means we can't perk a lot of professions.

If you don't like CB because of what other professions can land while it's active, then our nukes ought to check like IU does (53%). This would break our perking ability however. If you don't like NT's having nukes that will easily land, then our nukes should be WAAAAAYY faster and ideally casting would be multi threaded instead of single threaded. And our perks would still be broken. Alternatively, NT's could get healing or enough evades to be considered unperkable. But willy nilly nerfing CB and leaving everything else the same would, as I have said over and over, break the profession.

FYI traders can debuff 6650 NR in pvm and maintain it permanently.