Agent is fun now y00!

[srompu]

Try chaining True Disappear(?) with either nullity sphere or TMS, after Disappear or before. So to FP before you need to be able to cast True Prof really quickly and i think you cant hotswap much here, so other changes are needed to get the nanoskills for it.

Basically divide profs into can be alphaed while on True Disappear or not. For the NOTS, go to a FP with a lot of sustain, like doc or adv.
One question I have, and maybe you guys can help me here, which I don't have much empirical information is how many profs can touch us with True Disappear going?

I think the chaining would be cool, but I'm trying to find something I can do more often.
On the touching part, it depends on your build. I'd do full AR probably, so ~2400-2500 def. Would put you around shield MP def with disappear up. Most regular perks wouldn't land, but AAO-based ones might.
If you went around 3100 def, you could probably get clear of all of them.

Question 1: Recently I finished (somewhat) my 200 keep, ofc defensive setup: is this normal, that agent is DESTROYING me in less then 5 seconds every signle time? Literally, I am dead in time less then needed to press any perks. My keep sucks this much or...?

Not familiar with your keep, but you don't necessarily suck. The matchup is bad to begin with; you have poor dodge and low alpha. If I were to duel someone to crap on, I'd pick keep every time. However, 200 Agent can set up for a serious alpha now. A nerf is in order. If you see my above post, I've got a few suggestions for it.

[Eqvestre]

@ pomidor
in less than 5 seconds is not normal .....indeed agent is better than keeper at lvl 200 ....especially if he is kiting ,before the last patch i won some duels vs agents in mimic doc (toe to toe )
in bs ...if u get lucky and be the first to atack u might have a chance .....to even have a chance to stand against agents u need nr as much as u can get w/o nerfing youre setup +at least one perk in nr .... when i see agents i spam nemesis nano + zap nano +blind ring + dev armour anf ofc root graft ....if i m caught by surprise i usually survive for 20 -40 seconds .

[Rockdizzle]

5 seconds doesn't surprise me tbh as I've been beating profs with a sub-200 dual craphander agent fairly easily and everyone knows how ****ty shotgun support is for agent.
If the 200 keep/enf/Adv doesn't have coon up a 200 Bow Agent could insta gib with 1-2 perks(any works) + fling + AS + 1 reg hit + alb arrow + Lava cap/kizzer + proc hits which is 2 secs tops. A high HP Enf would survive with some HP but a few more hits or AS would finish them off.

A decked out 200 Bow Agent (usual stuff like 295 CSS,TNH belt etc) in FP Adv pushes 2.7k AR with just Frenzy of Fur(nano crystal needs fixing), 3k with Frenzy and Concentration so perking is not a problem. Ranger perks would hit 2.1k AR tho it's not perked for the perks but if you can land Clearsight it will hit 1750-3750 dmg + add dmg/2 before reflects.


With the way the perks are atm level 200 evade profs cant avoid them without all evade perks up and even than its close(100% twinked def Adv can't avoid perks vs 100% twinked fp adv Agent, 3.5k ish def - 250-78 vs 3.3k-3.4k AR +200 if wen-wen),
Changing them back to Rifle again would kinda fix it but it kills non-rifle setups and hurts Agents chances of perking evade profs at all which would bring back 2 old problems again.
Raising the Dodge check would also fix it but it doesn't change ganks when evades are down but since that's what Agents are meant to do it's not that bad an idea.


I see the problem being less the fault of 1-3 perks or Mimic and more that most profs cant evade Agent perks or even survive a simple gank/Alpha involving just AS+fling+nano feast+Fuzz with other stuff like Kizzers/Lava caps + procs + other perks being overkill. Duels/Fights are often seconds long at most if the other profs don't have TMS/Coon/Spec Absorbs/NS/Aegis already up and those don't always guarantee wins.
I'm not saying you shouldn't adjust Concussive Shot or Shadow Bullet as the dmg/stun on them is a bit absurd tbh, just that the frailness of other profs + the ability to hit thru high evades could be the main problems.

Just my 2 cents from playing agent in 150-200 BS so far.

[srompu]

Interesting. How do we have a keeper who survives 20-40 seconds, but people dying to a craphander Agent? Are your targets also twinks?

If the dodge check is changed, it essentially reverts TL7 Agents to the trash bin. They're actually decent right now for the first time in years.
The idea behind the mimic tweak would be mainly 150s, where the heal is OP.


For 200s, I have a couple questions:

Why bow? The AS/fling cycle is worse, clearsight is slow, and it ruins your AR on other perks.

I'm not sure that it's an AR problem. Pre-18.7 I had zero AR problems on agent, and used those almost exclusively, running ~2900 in enfo. I pretty much planned to perk literally everything. I don't think 170/200 ever really had AR problems. Also, the numbers you posted for 3.5k def adv vs 3.2k AR agent indicate the adv can evade the agent perks. Is this with dof?

The simple alpha has been nerfed, with PPS and Feast being increased to 2s so CS stun ends before more can queue.
If I were to re-gear, I'd take Shadow Bullet and Snipe Shot for the 0.5s execute times. Each also does more damage than fuzz/feast, so I'm confused why one would use them at all. I believe they contribute massively to 200 kill potential. I'm not playing at 200 though currently. Is this not the case?

[Rockdizzle]

The toons I killed vary, some are gimps that die to just specials thus don't count but I've killed 200 twinked fp doc Agents/200 Solds head on. Haven't been in BS too long so I've yet to meet a twink of every prof.

250(cant seem to get 275 100% without combat hud, 52 off :/) Ofab Tiger has a faster attack/recharge than Cobra so the AS is easier to cap, fling will be about the same due to loss of right arm symb.
At 237-461(467) dmg range Fling crits hit harder and ASs cap on everything with concentration anyways, at 461 max non-crit ASs should still cap most of the time.
Bow is also used for the Alb arrows which have a nice 3000-5000 dmg range or 1500-2500 in pvp. Would need Art brain to use them but since you don't need Rifle at all or nano init much it's worth it.
Ranger is not for the perks but instead the Bow+AS+Bow spec, "if" you could land them Clearsight is a great perk to start a perk chain with due to its great dmg range beating out all the other perks.

As I said AR is not a problem at all, at 1.94k-1.98k base AR(1.94k assumes +30 css, 1.98k if CoH bracer) in FP Adv your perks will sit at more than 2.4k not including 90% dodge check or concentration/Frenzy. with just 1 of the 2 buffs you can perk any evade prof without Dof up. Not even the best of 200 agents in FP enf could perk my 200 fixer with just limber up besides Fuzz/Nano Feast before 18.7, now I don't even want to bring my fixer into BS if lots of agents are around.

The comparison I made I didn't make clear enough I guess sorry, the 200 adv with 3.5k Def(my number was based on a all out pistol Adv setup I made) using Wolf morph + DoF + Limber + wolf buff. I put "-250-78" beside it because Projectile Magnet and 90% dodge check lower Advs effective def to below 3.3k thus perkable. *90% of 2.5k evades after proj magnet*

The perks are 2 seconds yes but that just means you use 1 first before CS and just hold off on specials until CS hits. Not many would/can react to heal right after the first perk hits in just 1 second besides a doctor maybe, Lizard Adv/high HP Doctor are really the only profs where 1 perk healed could mean a failed alpha.
> 2sec(starting perk so doesn't matter)> Nano Feast > 1 sec > CS > 1 sec > Fuzz or Shadow Bullet > .5 sec > Snipe Shot > specials during stun > hopefully dead target.

Shadow Bullet is for sure OP in dmg no objection here, the .5 sec speed is just over the top. Snipe Shot 1 needs over 1.7k rifle before it really starts to beat Fuzz, if it was 1 sec cast I'm sure it wouldn't be so OP looking but instead just plain powerful. Haven't used Shadow Bullet on my Agent yet(still leveling with Power up 3 perks for energize and 1 dmg perk) but I know it would help wreck every prof if I started using it.

I'm far from an expert on Agent so I'm just relaying what I know of other profs I've played/killed in 150-200 range over the years plus what I've seen/felt playing Agent in BS so far.

[Pomidor]

from what you, both Srompu and Rockdizzle wrote, seems agent are nemezis for everyone, especially at 200; they yelds superb AR, insane DD, stuns, vast tollset (of all proffesions) and no penalty. As a soldier I must say, I feel like a junk (slow perks, low DD, not hitting FA, no heals, no roots, no stuns...)

Yesterday BS 200, again, with my keeper (its not max finished, but got almost everything except few researches and higher ql armor +1 item) shows, that agents just rolls over me like a truck (one dude even had macro for graphic text indicated, I was rolled by a TRUCK). While I feel you, it must be fun - to 1,2,3,4: KILL!, such power should have it downsides; like have it shades or MAs or NTs (they either can be super deadly, sacrifice healing or defences, or vice versa).
What struck me most, is that even now Froob Agent in FP Trader/Soldier can simply kill 200 keeper, and its not hard at all - chain root + mass Crits at 2k dmg roughly +AS under TC does miracles, and I have tasted it severall times: as same as it goes to paid Agents, if I am jumped first and have deroot/ReleaseMe locked, I am straightly killed (if you ask, got now 1300 NR and 690AAD on keeper, not NR perked yet).

I don't know, if it was intentional or not; for me its great ommision, when one profession gets so much boost at certain level range (200 pvp) without any, absolutely any drawbacks.

Now, at TL7 PvP - i have watched some duels, and I am still shocked how Agents basicly insta-wins many professions (that 220 doc max geared, who lost withing 3 seconds must be raging till now, lol).

If things won't change - soon everyone will be playing agent, since - starting when agent can spam those bigger Heals/Use TMS VIII - they gain ultra power of either healing or defense. And it things aren't ready up to 1,2,3,4 kill, Agent can just hide and wait for best time to kill. I must say, that for the first time in my PvP history I sat in front of BS and when I saw 5 agents waiting in Queue, I actually didn't wanted to go there at all, with any of my toon. That makes me sad...

[dritst]

The perks are 2 seconds yes but that just means you use 1 first before CS and just hold off on specials until CS hits. Not many would/can react to heal right after the first perk hits in just 1 second besides a doctor maybe, Lizard Adv/high HP Doctor are really the only profs where 1 perk healed could mean a failed alpha.

Shadow Bullet is for sure OP in dmg no objection here, the .5 sec speed is just over the top. Snipe Shot 1 needs over 1.7k rifle before it really starts to beat Fuzz, if it was 1 sec cast I'm sure it wouldn't be so OP looking but instead just plain powerful. Haven't used Shadow Bullet on my Agent yet(still leveling with Power up 3 perks for energize and 1 dmg perk) but I know it would help wreck every prof if I started using it.

I'm far from an expert on Agent so I'm just relaying what I know of other profs I've played/killed in 150-200 range over the years plus what I've seen/felt playing Agent in BS so far.

the 0.5 perk is perfect for tl7 it means( if people arent enough fast to react) we can kill and that is the big change with pre 18.7 and that makes agent great to play now. If it is changed, there is no point to play again. At tl7 we die a lot but i think mishz understand what agents should be. We are killer, assassin if we pick someone and we are fast/good enough we can kill (and die after <3). But there is some way to disable our alpha power, some ingame seems to find ^^

[srompu]

250(cant seem to get 275 100% without combat hud, 52 off :/) Ofab Tiger has a faster attack/recharge than Cobra so the AS is easier to cap, fling will be about the same due to loss of right arm symb.
At 237-461(467) dmg range Fling crits hit harder and ASs cap on everything with concentration anyways, at 461 max non-crit ASs should still cap most of the time.

Hm, I didn't notice that. xD

Now, at TL7 PvP - i have watched some duels, and I am still shocked how Agents basicly insta-wins many professions (that 220 doc max geared, who lost withing 3 seconds must be raging till now, lol).

If things won't change - soon everyone will be playing agent, since - starting when agent can spam those bigger Heals/Use TMS VIII - they gain ultra power of either healing or defense. And it things aren't ready up to 1,2,3,4 kill, Agent can just hide and wait for best time to kill. I must say, that for the first time in my PvP history I sat in front of BS and when I saw 5 agents waiting in Queue, I actually didn't wanted to go there at all, with any of my toon. That makes me sad...

Well, to be fair, TL7 that's the only way to kill a 220 doc. It looks really flashy but it's not that reliable, and if it doesn't work you lose the duel. The speed at which a TL7 agent dies is more shocking. A shade can take you 100-0 in two seconds if he catches you fighting in BS.

I think we're establishing that 200 agent is OP, and needs a bit of a nerf. You seem to be at a very specific level where it happens though. 150s seem to be relatively chill. 170s are a little annoyed at the rage and CH nerfs, and tending to level. 220s are finally playable.

[Chewy1]

Hm, I didn't notice that. xD



Well, to be fair, TL7 that's the only way to kill a 220 doc. It looks really flashy but it's not that reliable, and if it doesn't work you lose the duel. The speed at which a TL7 agent dies is more shocking. A shade can take you 100-0 in two seconds if he catches you fighting in BS.

I think we're establishing that 200 agent is OP, and needs a bit of a nerf. You seem to be at a very specific level where it happens though. 150s seem to be relatively chill. 170s are a little annoyed at the rage and CH nerfs, and tending to level. 220s are finally playable.

Pretty much on point with everything you're saying

[Litestrider]

I'm really liking the 18.7 changes, there are some seriously nice improvements both for agents and nearly everybody else, and overall I'm having way more fun with the game!

The two things that still really bug me about agent, from a PvM perspective, are the FP lockout and the power scale into TL7.

The 20 minute lockout on TP and the 20-30 minute lockout on FP are still extremely annoying, even moreso since Adventurer and NT saw vast improvements along these lines with the insta-swap morphs which now act like FPs themselves, and the 2 minute offensive/defensive focus. I found it funny how much the adventurers were whining at the start, because I was extremely jealous, started seriously leveling my advy again, and was considering retiring my agent once and for all since advy basically has FP now. Being able to swap more often would be a huge boon in PvM, and given that PvP is largely short, explosive encounters, I think that similar to NT a shorter lockout wouldn't impact individual fights all that much.

And the power scale mostly comes back to how much the SL nanos are restricted. Agent feels really good early on due to the ease of twinking, and really good in TL5-6 when we can use and abuse all the top RK nanos and basically pretend to be any profession. With all the restrictions though TL7 is a definite step back (though in some ways less than it used to be, the changes to other profs have definitely helped us too). A lot of tools get stronger, but the FPs are still largely the same stuff we were using at 150, most of which just don't cut the mustard anymore. There should absolutely be sacrifices, like expensive gear swaps and/or perks, but I'd love to see more of the FPs properly usable, though obviously not enough to outdo any given prof and not enough to seriously impact PvP. For example, something to give FP:Fixer some evades would be extremely nice, but probably not enough that we'd become unperkable in PvP or anything. Another possibility would be to borrow from Adventurer's implementation, give us FPs that are fast to swap but not very strong, maybe missing some key nanos and whatnot, and then another slow-casting buff with a lockout that lets us "commit" to the FP, giving us some appropriate bonuses and opening some of the stronger nanos (like maybe TMS and CH).

Anyway, sorry, I'm bellyaching and talking changes in an overall positive thread. The changes have definitely made Agent more fun, and more FPs worth using. And it inspired me to finally whip my agent into shape and I'm honestly enjoying him now! I'm still envious of Adventurers, but now I just want to play one in addition to my agents, rather than in place of him!